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Post by Charles Barkley on Jul 13, 2015 22:47:34 GMT
Simple Answer, put more weight on the pitch and less on money and team record. There are ring chasers who will sign for a discounted rate on a title contender. But some people want a bigger role. The real life Mavs almost got DeAndre till he got bullied/kidnapped into resigning with the Clips. Purely based on their pitch. Also when you think about the Charlotte situation they got to sign Al Jefferson because they said hey, you can come into the east and be the best center here and destroy. And it worked till he got hurt. Well things like this already are less weighted reasons. But there is a never ending problem here. The more subjective we allow the reasoning to be for a player to sign, the more you guys will rip into us PAs for making stupid decisions. It's not possible for a free agency period to pass without people getting pissed off, and that's with making our criteria as objective and straightforward as possible. If how much I like a pitch mattered as much as the talent you offer with your lineup, could you imagine the shit I'd be getting myself into anytime I tried to explain my thought process after any signing? See if DeAndre loves the Mavericks pitch enough to commit to signing with them, then that's great. But he is DeAndre Jordan, he can do whatever he wants, it's realistic no matter what. But who the hell am I? I have to make choices based on what I think DeAndre is thinking. That means I have to be able to justify my thoughts. That means being subjective is really bad since all you folks will get super angry and start a silent protest or whatever unless everyone can see a clear path from point A to point B in how I've gone about things. How many people already think Glenn and I cheated to make this signing happen? What if I could say I liked Glenn's pitch more and that's why he signed? Would any GM not quit based on how stupid that is? Free agency sucks for everyone involved guys. Player agents are no exception. All you gotta do is go online and read about a player and understand his personality and what they desire in their careers at that time. Right now, LeBron wants money, and as much of it as he possibly can have. All it takes is a little looking in to about the big name guys to see where their heads are at and what they want. Draymond could have signed an offer sheet for any team and fucked over the GSW, but he didn't and he could have had a much larger deal with the GSW, but he took less money. What does this mean? It means Dray values the loyalty that they showed him, being a second round pick. And that Dray wants to win, he took less money to allow for more cap room for more players to possibly come in. I mean, this portraying a player isn't hard man. It's pretty obvious as to what players want these days. They announce it basically. Aldridge said he wanted to win and play close to home. DeAndre wanted to have a bigger part in the offense, and play close to home. Yet, the player agents portrayed guys wrong all off-season. Isn't collusion. With the way our cap is, everyone had stacks of cash. I feel like that a better job could have been done. And it could have even been done to a point where, you build a "suitor profile" for a player. Like what that guy wants in relation to how he has been seen in real life, and its just a file on your computer and you look at all the teams in the league, and you eliminate them based off of the profile you've made. You can't be subjective about a pitch. Half of us don't even speak English as our first language. But you can be subjective about a team, and what they bring to the table. Based off of a little research done in to the player you are portraying. I don't see this as something hard to do. Yes DeAndre is DeAndre IRL, and he went Mavs then Clippers. And he can do that because it is him. But what he wanted out of everything was a bigger role in the offense, money, possibly playing closer to home, winning, star power. You take those in to account, and you look at the teams, and eliminate them one by one and the team that has the best profile to what they want in real life, should win, considering the money is comparable to the market. Now Gasol? He resigned with the Grizzlies in real life, he could have gotten nearly the same amount of money elsewhere. The team is of good quality, championship caliber. But the most important thing? Loyalty. Gasol is a loyal man. And has been loyal to the Grizzlies. Now, Sacramento didn't hold Gasol that long, but the PMs from Vlade during the Gasol trade showed he was persistent in wanting to sign him. And, Vlade spoke nothing but great things about wanting to keep Gasol. And, the team around Gasol in here is arguably better than the team IRL. Russ, Conley, Dame, Randolph, thats how I'd rank them big 3 wise. Role players shouldn't need to play a huge part in it. The Kings had comparable talent to what the Grizzlies had IRL, Vlade offered comparable money, was loyal to him. Wanted him to be a king for life, I think that is what Vlade had said at one time. So in my head, I'd portray Gasol as a loyal down to earth dude who wants to compete. Which is why he should have went to the Kings. And I don't think Vlade would pull his offer if he knew he was going to sign with the Kings. |
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Post by Charles Barkley on Jul 13, 2015 22:55:43 GMT
The only reason Detroit doesn't sign a big name center is because they are rebuilding. But if out of nowhere Gasol said hey Van Gundy I wanna sign with Detroit he would and Drummond would stay on the team. Or the fact that they both would play at the same time. Detroit doesn't have a PF and Drummond or Gasol would play it. Try again mother truckah. Gasol doesn't play the low-post. He is a high post center like Noah or his brother. And they run Randolph down low most often than not. In Chiacago, you have Gasol and Noah high and they bring Taj in down low. The whole position thing in the NBA is dumb. it is all about the style of the player and how they mesh. Gasol would mesh with Drummond. And AD could probably seriously play the 3 since he is now a shooter. It isn't ideal, but the Gasol-Drummond would work, AD would be out of place, which is why the move needs made. |
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Post by Charles Barkley on Jul 13, 2015 22:57:15 GMT
I see both sides of this. I think Jeremiah's argument is valid but only for so long. If a player is still relatively young, or at least young enough where he could go somewhere and help build upon what a team already has in place, and be one of the MAIN faces of the franchise and have plenty of touches, doesn't he probably do that instead of joining literally 6-7 legitimately established players and needing to find a place to fit in there? Good players on your team is a good thing, but at some point, in some situations, it's actually too many. It's not that realistic a non-old/breaking down/ring chasing player would go somewhere that has a ton of talent at every position. IMO. Then why did this happen in Denver? Under your theory, Kyrie or Paul or James should have left... |
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Post by Walt Frazier on Jul 13, 2015 23:06:20 GMT
I see both sides of this. I think Jeremiah's argument is valid but only for so long. If a player is still relatively young, or at least young enough where he could go somewhere and help build upon what a team already has in place, and be one of the MAIN faces of the franchise and have plenty of touches, doesn't he probably do that instead of joining literally 6-7 legitimately established players and needing to find a place to fit in there? Good players on your team is a good thing, but at some point, in some situations, it's actually too many. It's not that realistic a non-old/breaking down/ring chasing player would go somewhere that has a ton of talent at every position. IMO. Then why did this happen in Denver? Under your theory, Kyrie or Paul or James should have left... There are tons of factors to consider Charles. Bird Rights simply hold a ton of value. At least to me. Unless you have done a bad job with your team and the guy knows he won't be winning at all then you have a great chance to get your guy back. Or if you have too much competition for one spot on your roster. Now a player choosing between 5 teams might eliminate a team because even if he might be the best option at a certain position, if there are also 3 other good options at his positions then he may definitely choose another team with less competition for minutes. |
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Post by Charles Barkley on Jul 13, 2015 23:08:48 GMT
You both share the same points really. I think the better point to make is that Gasol values loyalty and being comfortable. Not caring about being a superstar or having his own team, because I really wouldn't call the Grizzlies in real life, his team. I'd just call it a good team, not necessarily anyone's team. Marc didn't go to Milwaukee for it to be his own team, obviously. Nor would he have stayed in Sac-town for it to be his team. What is more important is that IRL, he shows loyalty and comfort. And nothing about this signing said loyalty or comfort. Without knowing what Vlade said and what Alex said, I think that, in the case of just looking at loyalty and how Marc Gasol is, Alex may have portrayed Marc incorrectly. Now, I understand how Vlade is. But I also know he had his heart set on signing him, bugged me for months for me to trade him Gasol when I had him. And was adamant about building a team around him and Russ and Dame. I just wonder what was said in that convo to make Vlade withdraw his offer. I don't think you withdraw an offer if the player is coming back to your team. And if Marc wasn't coming back, he was portrayed inaccurately. Loyalty was shown on Vlade's part, and IRL, loyalty is always shown on Marc's part. But in here, Alex didn't show it, which irks me. In this day and age, we have more access to how NBA player's think on a daily basis than ever imaginable. How can we not accurately portray these guys? I mean, if I can stalk some chick who flirted with me in a college business class on the internet, how can you not read a few articles about how Marc Gasol is as a person and understand he is a "family" man and wants to stay put and be loyal. I thought Gasol to Sacramento was an open and shut case. And I am saddened to see him go because of this. Alex was going to sign him to Sacramento. Then Vlade rescinded his offer. I don't blame Alex at all for the end result, Vlade was basically in "fuck it all, I'm leaving anyway and I don't care where Marc goes as much anymore, and I want to make a point about this whole Bird Rights process" etc etc etc. Now, maybe we should have paused the whole thing and said "whether it is Vlade or a new owner, it makes the most sense for Marc to go back to Sacramento, period.". But at that time it wasn't clear that Vlade was leaving. So, just a mess of a situation overall. Yeah, I know what you mean. And I think Marc should have signed with the Kings. I don't know why Vlade rescinded his offer. I don't understand how with knowing who Marc Gasol is, why the thought of him leaving was so "real" that Vlade rescinded his offer. Know what I mean? If I were Alex, I would have listened to offers to understand the market for Marc. And then asked that from Vlade. Vlade says yes, then done deal. But I don't know what went wrong and where. And the portrayal of the players isn't really a question here, since it seems like Alex was going to have Vlade resign Gasol, as I feel is the correct call. But when the contract is rescinded, that fucks everything up. And I'd like to know what happened to make him rescind it. Because that is where, if any, the inaccurate portrayal occurred in this negotiation process. The inaccurate portrayal is more-so with OSFA in general rather than this case. |
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Post by Charles Barkley on Jul 13, 2015 23:11:22 GMT
Then why did this happen in Denver? Under your theory, Kyrie or Paul or James should have left... There are tons of factors to consider Charles. Bird Rights simply hold a ton of value. At least to me. Unless you have done a bad job with your team and the guy knows he won't be winning at all then you have a great chance to get your guy back. Or if you have too much competition for one spot on your roster. Now a player choosing between 5 teams might eliminate a team because even if he might be the best option at a certain position, if there are also 3 other good options at his positions then he may definitely choose another team with less competition for minutes. I was just simply pointing out the major contradiction in your statement. Not necessarily making anything about it. And I understand how Alex's team is that way, and think it is fine. But you can't talk about a guy not wanting to be on a team with lots of other MAJOR stars and then look at the Nuggets and wonder why someone didn't leave to go have their own team. But the make-up of the league and the power of the league was majorly different, as it is always fluid. |
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Post by Alex English on Jul 14, 2015 0:07:02 GMT
I don't understand how with knowing who Marc Gasol is... But see, you don't know who Marc Gasol is, or any other pro. Could you give a run-down of how you'd go about creating a "suitor profile"? Which sources would you use? What if you come across contradictory information? How do you know some blogger isn't making a ton of assumptions, or just making shit up? I think you thought of this as a cool idea that would help things a lot, but haven't really considered the practical application. How can it be done thorough enough to analyze 20 or so people in a timespan of about a week and with enough confidence to back up your arguments against potential criticism from all of the other GMs? |
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Post by Charles Barkley on Jul 14, 2015 0:45:24 GMT
I don't understand how with knowing who Marc Gasol is... But see, you don't know who Marc Gasol is, or any other pro. Could you give a run-down of how you'd go about creating a "suitor profile"? Which sources would you use? What if you come across contradictory information? How do you know some blogger isn't making a ton of assumptions, or just making shit up? I think you thought of this as a cool idea that would help things a lot, but haven't really considered the practical application. How can it be done thorough enough to analyze 20 or so people in a timespan of about a week and with enough confidence to back up your arguments against potential criticism from all of the other GMs? To be a PA, you have to say fuck the criticism. You can't let that fear affect you. When we do the RC, I'm not thinking, "oh boy, if I put 3 points here, I bet I'll get bitched at" And I get that a PA is different, very different that the RC. But, at the same time, you can't have criticism effect your decisions in here. We make trades, and I know I'm gonna get torn a new asshole because it looks bad, but I believe in player X. I don't think there are any sources or anything like that. If the majority of the reports you read say, for example and this is made up, "kevin durant doesn't like russ." You'd use that. Obviously that doesn't apply here, but if 10 people are out there reporting that and then you have 1 dude saying the opposite, you go with the 10 guys until KD comes out and says something. Like, DeAndre's profile would be simple: Wants a bigger part of the offense, possibly wants to play closer to home, doesnt want to be berated by CP3, wants to compete for the tittle, and possibly wants to be the future face of a franchise. So that's his profile. There isn't a team that is going to offer all of those, but you look at it, and find what fits best. In the end, IRL, the most important thing to him was being a bigger part of the offense. He got that, he went back to the Clippers. LMA's would be: Wants to win, wants to play close to home. Well, Portland isn't close to home, but they can win. San Antonio is his home, but they aren't fit for winning. Houston is close to his home and can be winners, but they have Love, but LMA was cool alongside Duncan. It is all subjective. It isn't math, there isn't the absolute correct answer, you know? But it is like the RC in a way such that when I go re-do Draymond's stats, I have all this data in front of me. Well, when a PA portrays a player, they have all that data in front of them. It just seems like there's a lack of effort to know the player you are representing. From now on, because of the cap, money is likely is going to be equal for a while. Starting spots are up for grabs though, factor that in with who they are as a person, are they loyal? Do they complain about wanting to be the man? To have more shots? Have they mentioned wanting to go home? Are they chasing a ring, like David West? Are they content on just competing and not necessarily playing on a "stacked" team? All of that data is out there, it just needs to be found. I mean, the playoffs take a month, the draft starts the 24th-ish. There's loads of time to do your research and form a "suitor profile" for a PA. It isn't needed to be public. It doesn't even have to be done. I would just like to see a more accurate portrayal of the players. Because like Josh mentioned, this is the only time where we can gain something without losing something. Free Agency shapes the league for years to come. And to just not put the correct amount of effort into things is just disrespectful to this well run league. I want what is best for the league. As do a lot of people. And one player going to a different franchise has a tremendous amount of impact with ripple effects. Maybe we need more PAs. Maybe it needs to be taken more seriously than it is. But say I put all my hopes in to signing someone, and they wait and wait, and I pass on players because I know I need this guy, and then this guy doesn't sign, I lose out on other players I could have went after at least. And that is on the GM. But the PA needs to be more responsive as well, and I have had great interactions with PAs this off-season about what is going on. I think if PAs do more research about who they are representing, things will be better. This isn't the Vlade issue, because from what I have read, Marc was going to resign, but Vlade got mad and pulled his offer. This is about why Greg Monroe left Detroit and why Detroit doesn't understand it. Or why Eric wanted his own team. Its about why Amir went to Houston or Khris to CHA, and Garnett to Memphis. These aren't bad signings, or inaccurately portrayed players. But it is about WHY. The WHY matters. It is a subjective WHY. PA's have a lot of power, they can collude, they can have ulterior motives. These things can happen. And we put our trust in you guys, for it not to happen. The fear of criticism shouldn't be something that matters. At the end of the day, you need to feel like you portrayed the player as accurately as possible. And I feel like some PA's aren't doing so with some players. And I don't see the reason why. The only reason why is that they didn't do any research beyond just thinking about what they would want if they were in the players shoes. You can't put yourself in their shoes. You need to become them. I'm not hating on anyone in particular. I just feel like maybe the OSFA is a huge load, and it is too big for 5 guys. And that the players need to be portrayed more accurately. The other GMs need more trust in the PAs. And there needs to be no criticism unless it is blatantly warranted. |
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Post by Hanamichi Sakuragi on Jul 14, 2015 0:45:44 GMT
In the end of this offseason, we should all agree already that it will help a lot if we increase the number of PAs to lessen the work for each.  |
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Nov 30, 2024 7:51:06 GMT
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Post by Deleted on Jul 14, 2015 0:46:58 GMT
I do think having more PA's would help. A player agent for each position is definitely a simple way to split it up... but is it the best?
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Nov 30, 2024 7:51:06 GMT
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Post by Deleted on Jul 14, 2015 0:48:01 GMT
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Post by Charles Barkley on Jul 14, 2015 1:22:27 GMT
Well, if we increase the number of PAs, then you have signings happening quicker. Which is a double edged sword.
On one hand, you want to wait for the guys who are FA in here and in RL, to do their deal IRL, because it lets you know what they want.
On the other hand, we'd have people signing right and left, and there'd be no one left out on players because they waited.
I just think that this is THE MOST IMPORTANT process in the league, and we need to treat it as such.
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Post by Alex English on Jul 14, 2015 1:26:34 GMT
When I said criticism, I didn't mean insults or anger or anything, I meant a counter-argument for why a decision was made. That's pretty damn huge and you can't just say 'fuck the criticism' in that sense. When the Marc Gasol shit first went down, and Vlade's side was pretty much the only side out there, how many GMs were pissed and ready to quit or revolt or whatever? Vlade obviously, but also JR Wiles, Kevin Hollis, Troy Bolton, Josh Barber, Sam Bowie, Adam Collins and Magic Johnson all have comments in this thread about what BS the decision was. What if I refused to give any legit explanation? What if Ian didn't back up the decision? First of all, all you people would have wanted me removed as a PA at the very least, but how many would have contemplated quitting? After a point subjectivity isn't an acceptable answer.
This is also really more about a few guys. Nobody cares much why Amir Johnson went to Houston, or why this 76 rated player signed there and now I have to go after that 76 rated player. But for the few guys that matter, it's not a "these things happen" situation. It's an "I'm leaving the league because a small group of GMs rig everything for each other" situation. In those cases, we absolutely need some objective measures to justify things in a way that everyone can agree on. I don't think the public persona of a player falls into that category without a rigorous and defined structure of how it influences things. Which isn't necessarily a good thing in my opinion, as I've gone on about earlier in this thread. But this place would come to a complete halt with constant disagreement without it being set up that way.
On a similar point too, I don't think most people even want a proper breakdown of player personalities to be part of the game. Aside from the top guys does anyone give a single shit about Festus Ezeli's opinion on the pros and cons of playing in a small market vs a large market? I seriously doubt it. We're having a little fun here. So having things simple, streamlined, and objective is important to the smooth running of this place. Even though that comes with limitations.
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Kevin Hollis
Former Thunder GM for 7 years
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Posts: 2,838 
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Post by Kevin Hollis on Jul 14, 2015 2:55:02 GMT
When I said criticism, I didn't mean insults or anger or anything, I meant a counter-argument for why a decision was made. That's pretty damn huge and you can't just say 'fuck the criticism' in that sense. When the Marc Gasol shit first went down, and Vlade's side was pretty much the only side out there, how many GMs were pissed and ready to quit or revolt or whatever? Vlade obviously, but also JR Wiles, Kevin Hollis, Troy Bolton, Josh Barber, Sam Bowie, Adam Collins and Magic Johnson all have comments in this thread about what BS the decision was. What if I refused to give any legit explanation? What if Ian didn't back up the decision? First of all, all you people would have wanted me removed as a PA at the very least, but how many would have contemplated quitting? After a point subjectivity isn't an acceptable answer. This is also really more about a few guys. Nobody cares much why Amir Johnson went to Houston, or why this 76 rated player signed there and now I have to go after that 76 rated player. But for the few guys that matter, it's not a "these things happen" situation. It's an "I'm leaving the league because a small group of GMs rig everything for each other" situation. In those cases, we absolutely need some objective measures to justify things in a way that everyone can agree on. I don't think the public persona of a player falls into that category without a rigorous and defined structure of how it influences things. Which isn't necessarily a good thing in my opinion, as I've gone on about earlier in this thread. But this place would come to a complete halt with constant disagreement without it being set up that way. On a similar point too, I don't think most people even want a proper breakdown of player personalities to be part of the game. Aside from the top guys does anyone give a single shit about Festus Ezeli's opinion on the pros and cons of playing in a small market vs a large market? I seriously doubt it. We're having a little fun here. So having things simple, streamlined, and objective is important to the smooth running of this place. Even though that comes with limitations. I don't really agree with this. I think we all enjoy basketball enough to know why every person, regardless of rating, joined which team for what reason. If someone doesn't want to put in the time and effort to please others, then that person should not be int heir current role. As I mentioned earlier, I think it makes all the sense in the world that people cannot be on the trade committee AND act as a player agent. There is definitely a conflict of interest between the two and this easy fix will allow for better controls in the league. If you refute this idea, I start to think you are power hungry and want to control the league. As I asked in another thread, isn't the purpose of D5 to be as realistic as possible? I am sure almost all will say yes. So why is putting time and effort into the biggest part of this league a bad thing as CB said? As I mentioned, if you don't want to put the time and effort in because you don't care, then please don't hold a position that has this requirement. |
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Post by Hanamichi Sakuragi on Jul 14, 2015 3:10:28 GMT
When I said criticism, I didn't mean insults or anger or anything, I meant a counter-argument for why a decision was made. That's pretty damn huge and you can't just say 'fuck the criticism' in that sense. When the Marc Gasol shit first went down, and Vlade's side was pretty much the only side out there, how many GMs were pissed and ready to quit or revolt or whatever? Vlade obviously, but also JR Wiles, Kevin Hollis, Troy Bolton, Josh Barber, Sam Bowie, Adam Collins and Magic Johnson all have comments in this thread about what BS the decision was. What if I refused to give any legit explanation? What if Ian didn't back up the decision? First of all, all you people would have wanted me removed as a PA at the very least, but how many would have contemplated quitting? After a point subjectivity isn't an acceptable answer. This is also really more about a few guys. Nobody cares much why Amir Johnson went to Houston, or why this 76 rated player signed there and now I have to go after that 76 rated player. But for the few guys that matter, it's not a "these things happen" situation. It's an "I'm leaving the league because a small group of GMs rig everything for each other" situation. In those cases, we absolutely need some objective measures to justify things in a way that everyone can agree on. I don't think the public persona of a player falls into that category without a rigorous and defined structure of how it influences things. Which isn't necessarily a good thing in my opinion, as I've gone on about earlier in this thread. But this place would come to a complete halt with constant disagreement without it being set up that way. On a similar point too, I don't think most people even want a proper breakdown of player personalities to be part of the game. Aside from the top guys does anyone give a single shit about Festus Ezeli's opinion on the pros and cons of playing in a small market vs a large market? I seriously doubt it. We're having a little fun here. So having things simple, streamlined, and objective is important to the smooth running of this place. Even though that comes with limitations. I don't really agree with this. I think we all enjoy basketball enough to know why every person, regardless of rating, joined which team for what reason. If someone doesn't want to put in the time and effort to please others, then that person should not be int heir current role. As I mentioned earlier, I think it makes all the sense in the world that people cannot be on the trade committee AND act as a player agent. There is definitely a conflict of interest between the two and this easy fix will allow for better controls in the league. If you refute this idea, I start to think you are power hungry and want to control the league. As I asked in another thread, isn't the purpose of D5 to be as realistic as possible? I am sure almost all will say yes. So why is putting time and effort into the biggest part of this league a bad thing as CB said? As I mentioned, if you don't want to put the time and effort in because you don't care, then please don't hold a position that has this requirement. I think what Alex is implying is that they can only give much effort with the free time that they have as they also have to do things IRL. They are FAs that does need that much effort to research on and they are those that needed that. And also, even if you enjoy basketball enough, you cannot know all the reason behind every player's move in real life. A lot of the small signings does not even have enough coverage for us to know why. And by the way, Alex have put that time and effort that you are talking about already in the PAST FEW YEARS so he deserves some respect too. But I do agree with some of your points. That we need to change things to make it realistic. |
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Post by Ian Noble on Jul 14, 2015 12:15:36 GMT
When I said criticism, I didn't mean insults or anger or anything, I meant a counter-argument for why a decision was made. That's pretty damn huge and you can't just say 'fuck the criticism' in that sense. When the Marc Gasol shit first went down, and Vlade's side was pretty much the only side out there, how many GMs were pissed and ready to quit or revolt or whatever? Vlade obviously, but also JR Wiles, Kevin Hollis, Troy Bolton, Josh Barber, Sam Bowie, Adam Collins and Magic Johnson all have comments in this thread about what BS the decision was. What if I refused to give any legit explanation? What if Ian didn't back up the decision? First of all, all you people would have wanted me removed as a PA at the very least, but how many would have contemplated quitting? After a point subjectivity isn't an acceptable answer. This is also really more about a few guys. Nobody cares much why Amir Johnson went to Houston, or why this 76 rated player signed there and now I have to go after that 76 rated player. But for the few guys that matter, it's not a "these things happen" situation. It's an "I'm leaving the league because a small group of GMs rig everything for each other" situation. In those cases, we absolutely need some objective measures to justify things in a way that everyone can agree on. I don't think the public persona of a player falls into that category without a rigorous and defined structure of how it influences things. Which isn't necessarily a good thing in my opinion, as I've gone on about earlier in this thread. But this place would come to a complete halt with constant disagreement without it being set up that way. On a similar point too, I don't think most people even want a proper breakdown of player personalities to be part of the game. Aside from the top guys does anyone give a single shit about Festus Ezeli's opinion on the pros and cons of playing in a small market vs a large market? I seriously doubt it. We're having a little fun here. So having things simple, streamlined, and objective is important to the smooth running of this place. Even though that comes with limitations. Totally agree, well said Alex. |
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Kevin Hollis
Former Thunder GM for 7 years
All Star
Posts: 2,838
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Post by Kevin Hollis on Jul 14, 2015 14:01:47 GMT
When I said criticism, I didn't mean insults or anger or anything, I meant a counter-argument for why a decision was made. That's pretty damn huge and you can't just say 'fuck the criticism' in that sense. When the Marc Gasol shit first went down, and Vlade's side was pretty much the only side out there, how many GMs were pissed and ready to quit or revolt or whatever? Vlade obviously, but also JR Wiles, Kevin Hollis, Troy Bolton, Josh Barber, Sam Bowie, Adam Collins and Magic Johnson all have comments in this thread about what BS the decision was. What if I refused to give any legit explanation? What if Ian didn't back up the decision? First of all, all you people would have wanted me removed as a PA at the very least, but how many would have contemplated quitting? After a point subjectivity isn't an acceptable answer. This is also really more about a few guys. Nobody cares much why Amir Johnson went to Houston, or why this 76 rated player signed there and now I have to go after that 76 rated player. But for the few guys that matter, it's not a "these things happen" situation. It's an "I'm leaving the league because a small group of GMs rig everything for each other" situation. In those cases, we absolutely need some objective measures to justify things in a way that everyone can agree on. I don't think the public persona of a player falls into that category without a rigorous and defined structure of how it influences things. Which isn't necessarily a good thing in my opinion, as I've gone on about earlier in this thread. But this place would come to a complete halt with constant disagreement without it being set up that way. On a similar point too, I don't think most people even want a proper breakdown of player personalities to be part of the game. Aside from the top guys does anyone give a single shit about Festus Ezeli's opinion on the pros and cons of playing in a small market vs a large market? I seriously doubt it. We're having a little fun here. So having things simple, streamlined, and objective is important to the smooth running of this place. Even though that comes with limitations. Totally agree, well said Alex. So are we just going to ignore people's concerns with PAs and the impending doom of next off-season? I for one do not think 1 PA at each position is enough for what is going to happen. I think each position should have three people and a majority vote will place each player on a team. There are so many top free agents next year and PAs can pretty much decide the fate of the league if they want to. |
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Post by Shane Battier on Jul 14, 2015 14:23:37 GMT
Relieve Sam Bowie of his duties as the assistant GM of Magic and let him be the PA for all the players! LOL
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Post by Hanamichi Sakuragi on Jul 14, 2015 14:24:58 GMT
Totally agree, well said Alex. So are we just going to ignore people's concerns with PAs and the impending doom of next off-season? I for one do not think 1 PA at each position is enough for what is going to happen. I think each position should have three people and a majority vote will place each player on a team. There are so many top free agents next year and PAs can pretty much decide the fate of the league if they want to. Ian have said already that increasing the number of PAs is a good idea. But the hows/whats are still not decided. Maybe it will be decided more quickly if someone will make a suggestion thread |
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Post by Charles Barkley on Jul 15, 2015 8:48:50 GMT
Alex English Ian Noble Kevin HollisIf you can't explain why a player went to a place, then you shouldn't be a PA. The Marc Gasol case is SOOOO different than what I am talking about. But at the same time, what was said in the Marc Gasol discussion to make Vlade rescind his offer? If you don't want to take the time and learn the personalities of the players you are representing, then you shouldn't be a PA. Like Kevin said, all of us know and understand basketball. I can look at a roster and see how that offense would work IRL. We know why Amir went to Houston. And we know when MONEY TALKS. But what we don't know is why in the world does a combo guard who has no problem sharing, want to become the man out of nowhere? The only explanations we seek are the ones in which the decision doesn't sit well with us. And if the explanation is fine, then it will be ok. But when nothing makes sense with a signing, like Gasol going to Milwaukee (before we knew Vlade rescinded his offer), we want answers. And the answer you provided, "Vlade rescinded his offer" should suffice with all of us. If it leaves a few dusty feathers, then so be it. In the case of being a PA, you're only going to please that one team. Every other team wants to know why so and so didn't sign with them. And it shouldn't be hard to explain why. But when the reason is just ludicrous, that is when we, the people, act out. Just fucking do your research in to your player. Do your due diligence, you're in a position of power, PA's, you can change the league in one single decision, it is an important one. Respect it and your position, or just step down. I agree that next off-season is just going to be stupid. If there's only 5 PA's, it is going to be insane. I think we should also have a moratorium like the NBA does, so we know how the free agents in real life act.
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Post by Hanamichi Sakuragi on Jul 15, 2015 9:19:21 GMT
It is more of a Position of Responsibility and Stress rather than a Position of Power.
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Post by Ian Noble on Jul 15, 2015 10:30:50 GMT
Just fucking do your research in to your player. Do your due diligence, you're in a position of power, PA's, you can change the league in one single decision, it is an important one. Respect it and your position, or just step down. Charles you're starting to cross the line here and I don't like it. For starters you're being pretty presumptuous, but also you're being rude to the PAs who have done a tremendous job, for free, you have no idea at all how much work goes into it. Next Off Season will be different. I think a more efficient method would be to break down the OSFA period into two or maybe even three groups so that the highest rated players are negotiated first, followed by a mid-tier of players and finally players rated below 78 or something. I'm going to look into making the job easier for PAs, so they can focus more on just a few negotiations at a time and we can focus our efforts especially on big-name FAs. And I expect I will put myself in a position to give a general overview of ALL offers instead of taking on FAs myself. |
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Kevin Hollis
Former Thunder GM for 7 years
All Star
Posts: 2,838
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Post by Kevin Hollis on Jul 15, 2015 11:56:06 GMT
It is more of a Position of Responsibility and Stress rather than a Position of Power. You're naive if you think this. We aren't talking about a decision that lasts a couple months and we restart all over. If that was the case, no one would care. People care because these PA decisions last years - yes, real life years, not some video game SIM years. I do want to know why a free agent went somewhere regardless of rating. Why? Because I am 26 and I won't have a chance for Bledsoe, using as an example, until I turn 31. These are impActful decisions that hold power. PS: Cavs, stop kissing ass on every post. |
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Post by Hanamichi Sakuragi on Jul 15, 2015 12:38:07 GMT
It is more of a Position of Responsibility and Stress rather than a Position of Power. You're naive if you think this. We aren't talking about a decision that lasts a couple months and we restart all over. If that was the case, no one would care. People care because these PA decisions last years - yes, real life years, not some video game SIM years. I do want to know why a free agent went somewhere regardless of rating. Why? Because I am 26 and I won't have a chance for Bledsoe, using as an example, until I turn 31. These are impActful decisions that hold power. PS: Cavs, stop kissing ass on every post. Your the one who is naive and you are also insensitive coz you keep on ranting without considering the position of the PAs. You are not a customer here being serve so don't act like you can just attack those who have taken responsibilities and have sacrificed time for the sake of the league, like you are paying them. I also like to have changes and changes will come as what Ian said. Now if you still think that there should be more changes to be done, then suggest it properly. Dont rant like the PAs are doing anything illegal. They are not. Check the rulebook. So in short they are not doing any mistakes. they are just doing the best that they can do. But same as you, I want improvement in the rules More PAs. More restrictions. Anything that can make the league better. But unlike you, I know ranting will not help. If you really think ranting really helps, then you are really naive. |
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Deleted
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Nov 30, 2024 7:51:06 GMT
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Post by Deleted on Jul 15, 2015 12:48:04 GMT
It is more of a Position of Responsibility and Stress rather than a Position of Power. You're naive if you think this. We aren't talking about a decision that lasts a couple months and we restart all over. If that was the case, no one would care. People care because these PA decisions last years - yes, real life years, not some video game SIM years. I do want to know why a free agent went somewhere regardless of rating. Why? Because I am 26 and I won't have a chance for Bledsoe, using as an example, until I turn 31. These are impActful decisions that hold power. PS: Cavs, stop kissing ass on every post. It's less kissing ass and more from a place of understanding. I don't think michi is interested in kissing ass. Running a league and being a PA and a committee member is very very hard. There are lots of decisions made this offseason I wouldn't have made myself. Maybe there is a good ol boys club with Bledsoe and Draymond and Rudy, but there isn't anyway to prove it, at least not from what we have access too. And there really isn't anything to be gained from continuing an attack, rather something to be gained by looking for a solution. I like Ian's idea of splitting the players into tiers. |
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Deleted
Posts: 0
Nov 30, 2024 7:51:06 GMT
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Post by Deleted on Jul 15, 2015 12:49:52 GMT
Maybe less players need to be represented by agents and there should be a blind bidding for all players under 78.
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Kevin Hollis
Former Thunder GM for 7 years
All Star
Posts: 2,838
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Post by Kevin Hollis on Jul 15, 2015 14:14:07 GMT
You're naive if you think this. We aren't talking about a decision that lasts a couple months and we restart all over. If that was the case, no one would care. People care because these PA decisions last years - yes, real life years, not some video game SIM years. I do want to know why a free agent went somewhere regardless of rating. Why? Because I am 26 and I won't have a chance for Bledsoe, using as an example, until I turn 31. These are impActful decisions that hold power. PS: Cavs, stop kissing ass on every post. Your the one who is naive and you are also insensitive coz you keep on ranting without considering the position of the PAs. You are not a customer here being serve so don't act like you can just attack those who have taken responsibilities and have sacrificed time for the sake of the league, like you are paying them. I also like to have changes and changes will come as what Ian said. Now if you still think that there should be more changes to be done, then suggest it properly. Dont rant like the PAs are doing anything illegal. They are not. Check the rulebook. So in short they are not doing any mistakes. they are just doing the best that they can do. But same as you, I want improvement in the rules More PAs. More restrictions. Anything that can make the league better. But unlike you, I know ranting will not help. If you really think ranting really helps, then you are really naive. I am done arguing, obviously you don't understand. |
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Dan Majerle
Rookie
Posts: 125
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Post by Dan Majerle on Jul 15, 2015 14:59:54 GMT
Can we create a separate thread for this argument? IMHO I think for higher rating free agents it should not be single PA decision there should be decorum among other PA's and have voting among them to have transparency of signing of the player, the number of votes should be displayed for the signing. There should be a check and balance for this to avoid sole interest against other PA's.
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Kevin Hollis
Former Thunder GM for 7 years
All Star
Posts: 2,838
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Post by Kevin Hollis on Jul 15, 2015 15:25:52 GMT
What Dan Majerle says, goes. I'm a follower.
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Post by James Kay on Jul 17, 2017 22:26:10 GMT
Can we create a separate thread for this argument? IMHO I think for higher rating free agents it should not be single PA decision there should be decorum among other PA's and have voting among them to have transparency of signing of the player, the number of votes should be displayed for the signing. There should be a check and balance for this to avoid sole interest against other PA's. Dan Marjele's longest post was coincidentally remarking on the system of signing big FAs a year before his own Free Agency drama.....sp00ky |
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