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Post by Deleted on Apr 5, 2014 21:00:22 GMT
Name one time when Chris Bosh showed he could be THE MAN on a team. HereAs cool as that was, it proved nothing. Toronto sucked in a weak Eastern Conference with Bosh as their main guy. Sure he was the man but does that prove he CAN be the man on a good team? I think Josh Barber's argument about Kevin Love applies to Bosh because he barley made the playoffs while Lebron and Wade never missed it, in the same conference, with less of a supporting casting. |
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Post by Deleted on Apr 5, 2014 21:00:58 GMT
This is a strange thread. It's taken me a long time to get around to reading it. Chris Bosh is one of the true unsung heroes of the last decade in my opinion. He could lead a team on his own - in fact he did in Toronto, where he kicked ass! Now he's actually content to play third-fiddle to Wade and Lebron as perhaps the ultimate glue-guy of NBA history since James Worthy. On the surface his overall stats are down, of course they are, but he's actually improved since signing in Miami. If you take a peek behind the per-game averages you can see confirmation that Bosh has improved each year. Far from decreasing him, I'd say he could do with an increase, but since it's hard to judge I'd keep him where he is. I don't see any point comparing him to Josh Smith (I don't know why the thread has turned into that), so I'm not going to waste space doing so. PS. If you raise Bosh I quit. |
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Post by Jeremiah Hill on Apr 5, 2014 21:13:26 GMT
As cool as that was, it proved nothing. Toronto sucked in a weak Eastern Conference with Bosh as their main guy. Sure he was the man but does that prove he CAN be the man on a good team? I think Josh Barber's argument about Kevin Love applies to Bosh because he barley made the playoffs while Lebron and Wade never missed it, in the same conference, with less of a supporting casting. The east didn't suck back then dude. The east was actually really good. They had Boston with the big 3, Cleveland was a 60 win team, Washington had a good team, Miami was good, Atlanta was good, Orlando had Dwight. |
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Post by Deleted on Apr 5, 2014 21:17:03 GMT
As cool as that was, it proved nothing. Toronto sucked in a weak Eastern Conference with Bosh as their main guy. Sure he was the man but does that prove he CAN be the man on a good team? I think Josh Barber's argument about Kevin Love applies to Bosh because he barley made the playoffs while Lebron and Wade never missed it, in the same conference, with less of a supporting casting. The east didn't suck back then dude. The east was actually really good. They had Boston with the big 3, Cleveland was a 60 win team, Washington had a good team, Miami was good, Atlanta was good, Orlando had Dwight. Wow lol! Between 1999, when Jordan retired, and now only Detroit, Miami (3), and Boston have won a championships as an Eastern Team. Therefore, the Western Conference has won the title since Jordan retired 65% of the time. |
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Post by Jeremiah Hill on Apr 5, 2014 21:18:33 GMT
The east didn't suck back then dude. The east was actually really good. They had Boston with the big 3, Cleveland was a 60 win team, Washington had a good team, Miami was good, Atlanta was good, Orlando had Dwight. Wow lol! Between 1999, when Jordan retired, and now only Detroit, Miami (3), and Boston have won a championships as an Eastern Team. Therefore, the Western Conference has won the title since Jordan retired 65% of the time. That doesn't mean their weren't good teams in the East dude. |
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Post by Deleted on Apr 5, 2014 21:21:32 GMT
Wow lol! Between 1999, when Jordan retired, and now only Detroit, Miami (3), and Boston have won a championships as an Eastern Team. Therefore, the Western Conference has won the title since Jordan retired 65% of the time. That doesn't mean their weren't good teams in the East dude. Dude, it strongly indicates that they aren't as good as the west. Hell just look at this year! Minnesota would be a fairly high seed in the east. |
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Post by Jeremiah Hill on Apr 5, 2014 21:40:26 GMT
That doesn't mean their weren't good teams in the East dude. Dude, it strongly indicates that they aren't as good as the west. Hell just look at this year! Minnesota would be a fairly high seed in the east. That's fine, Josh Smith was in the east the entire time and didn't do shit either. |
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Post by Deleted on Apr 5, 2014 21:42:41 GMT
Dude, it strongly indicates that they aren't as good as the west. Hell just look at this year! Minnesota would be a fairly high seed in the east. That's fine, Josh Smith was in the east the entire time and didn't do shit either. That's not the kind of player he is nor ever claimed to be. |
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Post by Jeremiah Hill on Apr 5, 2014 21:46:21 GMT
That's fine, Josh Smith was in the east the entire time and didn't do shit either. That's not the kind of player he is nor ever claimed to be. The entire premise of this thread is that you claim that Josh Smith is the same player that Bosh is. |
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tbftw71
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Post by tbftw71 on Apr 6, 2014 0:32:29 GMT
Josh Smith sucks. Chris Bosh is a role player. You are missing what I'm saying. I said Smith's athleticism is what keeps him at his rating. Bosh is only going to decline over the years. And LeBron is the greatest player to ever walk the face of earth. Would shit all over Jordan. Literally take a dump on Jordan's head as he was dunking over him. Jordan=Kobe Magic=LeBron. Just watch the game Jeremiah. I have no idea how old youa re, but you're not understanding my points.
And if you insult me, it shows you are missing the entire point.
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Post by Deleted on Apr 6, 2014 1:25:54 GMT
That's not the kind of player he is nor ever claimed to be. The entire premise of this thread is that you claim that Josh Smith is the same player that Bosh is. No lol; you need to go work on identifying premises. |
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Post by Jeremiah Hill on Apr 6, 2014 1:28:27 GMT
Josh Smith sucks. Chris Bosh is a role player. You are missing what I'm saying. I said Smith's athleticism is what keeps him at his rating. Bosh is only going to decline over the years. And LeBron is the greatest player to ever walk the face of earth. Would shit all over Jordan. Literally take a dump on Jordan's head as he was dunking over him. Jordan=Kobe Magic=LeBron. Just watch the game Jeremiah. I have no idea how old youa re, but you're not understanding my points. And if you insult me, it shows you are missing the entire point. I do watch the game, that's why I can't understand what you are seeing. Are you listening to it on the radio or something? |
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Post by Jeremiah Hill on Apr 6, 2014 1:29:17 GMT
The entire premise of this thread is that you claim that Josh Smith is the same player that Bosh is. No lol; you need to go work on identifying premises. I thought this was a done deal, you went almost 3 hours without saying something dumb. |
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Post by Deleted on Apr 6, 2014 1:30:26 GMT
No lol; you need to go work on identifying premises. I thought this was a done deal, you went almost 3 hours without saying something dumb. I am sick and fell asleep, so thanks asshole!  |
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Post by Walt Frazier on Apr 9, 2014 14:10:25 GMT
Well, for what it's worth, I never actually did my research on Bosh until now. So much said in this thread I just kinda wanted to stay out of it. Some things I found interesting...
Bosh' CAREER FG% - 49.8%
Bosh with Miami has been at 49.6, 48.7, 53.5, and 51.7. He also had a 50.5 and a 51.8% in Toronto.
Bosh' CAREER 3pt% - 31.1%
Bosh with Miami has been at 24.0, 28.6, 28.4, and 34.4. I will say, obviously, this year especially, he's upped his attempts per game by a significant margin. He did take 0.6 one year in Toronto, and he did make them in Toronto at rates of 34.3, 40.0, and 36.4 as well as some worse seasons...I guess what I'd say is you could argue he has had a very similar shot for awhile, but no one noticed. Now, this year is pretty impressive, I'd give him credit for it certainly with the increased shot attempts, but it's not really a big surprise and he's still at 34.4 which is solid but just about average or below average for the league.
FT% is really unchanged for his career. He shot better in Toronto with more attempts one season and similar in other years in again more attempts.
One truly interesting thing - Most of Bosh's Toronto career, he averaged just as many AST as TO, slightly more AST a few years. This year he's at 1.1 AST and 1.5 TO. His worst ratio of his career, tied with his rookie season.
I also think his rebounding should be looked at. That's not quite a usage thing IMO. If Bosh was playing with a 10+ rebounder in the post then that's one thing, but who is he losing his 3.5-4 rebounds per game to, compared to his Toronto years? I guess maybe .5 of that could be factored to less minutes played, down to 33 last season and 32 this season compared to 36 in his career...but still. 8.3 to 7.9 to 6.8 to 6.7 rebounds per game is a big decline while in Miami. He's changed his game, you argue? Ok, part of that change is he's not as effective of a rebounder.
The points are irrelevant and are tied to his %'s which look the same as they were in Toronto, he's just used less there no doubt. He shoots 2-3 shots less than his career avg. I think the biggest thing is he's not getting to the line anymore. Used to go 8+ times per game, he's dropped below 4 this season.
Anyway, all told, I don't think a drop like Vlade is suggesting is due, but seeing as he has always had a solid mid-range game from what I can remember, I'd say he's just increased his range a few feet while in Miami and has (Vlade is right here) been the beneficiary of less attention going his way to help him gain that confidence in his 3pt shot.
I find it hard to keep him at an 88 considering what he's doing, but I also can't really see putting him down where Vlade has him. He's in the middle to me.
In the end, 16 points, 6.7 boards, just one assist to 1.5 TO's, and 1 steal and 1 block (both good things but right with career #'s)...hmm. The %'s help a lot too. I'll go 86.
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Post by Jeremiah Hill on Apr 9, 2014 14:12:51 GMT
Why did you even have to bring this thread up from the dead?
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Post by Walt Frazier on Apr 9, 2014 14:19:31 GMT
B/C I never gave a rating nor researched Bosh and was curious. And Vlade asked me to look into him b/c he likes the details I go into even when he disagrees :-p
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Post by Jeremiah Hill on Apr 9, 2014 14:24:44 GMT
B/C I never gave a rating nor researched Bosh and was curious. And Vlade asked me to look into him b/c he likes the details I go into even when he disagrees :-p I went into quite a bit of detail. I can see how you are looking at it though. I wouldn't argue with him being an 87 instead of an 88. |
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Post by Walt Frazier on Apr 9, 2014 14:30:16 GMT
Yes but Vlade is in an argument with you so he may not see clearly when you type. I know how that gets (not with you just generally) so bringing another angle at it.
Also just honestly, I don't see him as only 1 or 2 points behind Kevin Love or Aldridge. I think they are clearly 2 points better, maybe 3, but I understand the 87's out there as well. I'm only at an 86 myself. And if Bosh gets into a different situation and ups his #'s I will certainly put in for a higher rating again.
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Post by Jeremiah Hill on Apr 9, 2014 14:31:26 GMT
Do you have any idea how painful it was for me to have to defend Chris Bosh being from Ohio?
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Post by Walt Frazier on Apr 9, 2014 14:37:56 GMT
Do you have any idea how painful it was for me to have to defend Chris Bosh being from Ohio? If Bosh had never been in Toronto and just plopped down in Miami and put up the #'s he's putting up, he wouldn't be sniffing an 86 from me, let alone the 88 and higher from others. His 16 and 6 vs Favors 13 and 9? 1 steal and 1 block vs 1 steal and 1.5 blocks? Bosh does have a much better shot obviously, but half the people voting on Favors went with a 77 or 78, he barely got a 79 overall rating. Bosh would probably be an 83-84 tops if he was just some guy instead of having played with Toronto before. But, knowing what we know of his past I honestly don't see how anyone has him lower than an 85-86. And I see the argument for keeping him about where he is. The ratings over 88 I do question but whatever, all told he's basically unchanged. |
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Post by Deleted on Apr 9, 2014 14:51:34 GMT
Like I said I used hyperbole to make my point; I never thought he should be an 80 or an 82. IF we will agree to put players with similar stats like Josh Smith and Ibaka in the same range then I can go for this. Since SOMEONE showed unbias anti-"Chris Bosh scale" opinion and did some research, my honest rating for him will be an 84.
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Post by Deleted on Apr 9, 2014 14:52:57 GMT
B/C I never gave a rating nor researched Bosh and was curious. And Vlade asked me to look into him b/c he likes the details I go into even when he disagrees :-p I went into quite a bit of detail. I can see how you are looking at it though. I wouldn't argue with him being an 87 instead of an 88. You and everyone else kept saying the same thing over and over. Honestly, you made more sense than most people even though Walt and Shaq are the only two I thought that ever made really cutting-edge points. |
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Post by Jeremiah Hill on Apr 9, 2014 15:22:43 GMT
Vlade please drop this, Josh Smith can't hold Chris Bosh's jock strap and it's not even close. Bosh has been an allstar and plays like one on my scale, Josh Smith does not. I don't really mind if Bosh gets lowered to an 87 because honestly I don't see a difference between an 88 and an 87. He is not a "borderline all-star" type player. I wholeheartedly believe that if he had not gone to Miami that he would be averaging 28 and 8 or 9. Also to Walt, do you not think his decreased rebounding numbers relate at all to him playing further from the basket more?
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Post by Walt Frazier on Apr 9, 2014 15:28:09 GMT
Vlade please drop this, Josh Smith can't hold Chris Bosh's jock strap and it's not even close. Bosh has been an allstar and plays like one on my scale, Josh Smith does not. I don't really mind if Bosh gets lowered to an 87 because honestly I don't see a difference between an 88 and an 87. He is not a "borderline all-star" type player. I wholeheartedly believe that if he had not gone to Miami that he would be averaging 28 and 8 or 9. Also to Walt, do you not think his decreased rebounding numbers relate at all to him playing further from the basket more? Yes of course I have thought of this. Just my opinion, if he is going to play further from the basket more often and get credit for improving his shot, I am going to take away some of his rebounding impact b/c he's not getting them anymore. IMO he's EITHER an outside guy with a nice shot OR a guy who plays more inside and gets boards. He doesn't seem to have the ability to do both. Also, I believe you or someone else said he is their Center. Most C's still get quite a few more rebounds than 6.7 a game. He should be guarding other C's and PF's, who also play near the paint (based on the other rebounding #'s in the league). |
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Post by Deleted on Apr 9, 2014 15:29:26 GMT
Vlade please drop this, Josh Smith can't hold Chris Bosh's jock strap and it's not even close. Bosh has been an allstar and plays like one on my scale, Josh Smith does not. I don't really mind if Bosh gets lowered to an 87 because honestly I don't see a difference between an 88 and an 87. He is not a "borderline all-star" type player. I wholeheartedly believe that if he had not gone to Miami that he would be averaging 28 and 8 or 9. Also to Walt, do you not think his decreased rebounding numbers relate at all to him playing further from the basket more? Stuff like this will get me back to using the "Chris Bosh scale." If you think I am crazy then read Walt's post. To answer the question for Walt, yes but that's part of basketball. You can't use hypothetical situations to explain a change in a guy's game. Bosh's numbers, play, and anything and everything related to the game of basketball do not warrant him being an 88. |
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Post by Jeremiah Hill on Apr 9, 2014 15:35:34 GMT
Vlade please drop this, Josh Smith can't hold Chris Bosh's jock strap and it's not even close. Bosh has been an allstar and plays like one on my scale, Josh Smith does not. I don't really mind if Bosh gets lowered to an 87 because honestly I don't see a difference between an 88 and an 87. He is not a "borderline all-star" type player. I wholeheartedly believe that if he had not gone to Miami that he would be averaging 28 and 8 or 9. Also to Walt, do you not think his decreased rebounding numbers relate at all to him playing further from the basket more? Yes of course I have thought of this. Just my opinion, if he is going to play further from the basket more often and get credit for improving his shot, I am going to take away some of his rebounding impact b/c he's not getting them anymore. IMO he's EITHER an outside guy with a nice shot OR a guy who plays more inside and gets boards. He doesn't seem to have the ability to do both. Also, I believe you or someone else said he is their Center. Most C's still get quite a few more rebounds than 6.7 a game. He should be guarding other C's and PF's, who also play near the paint (based on the other rebounding #'s in the league). I agree with you on how many rebounds he gets and he has to decide whether to be an outside or inside player. In regards to your him being a center, I do think we'd both agree that he is playing out of position as he's probably about as much of a pure face up PF as there is. |
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Post by Walt Frazier on Apr 9, 2014 15:41:11 GMT
Yea I agree he's more of a PF. But, Bosh is apparently a PF who can shoot and gets 6 something rebounds a game. To me it's just not crazy (88) impressive.
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Post by Deleted on Apr 9, 2014 16:40:12 GMT
Yea I agree he's more of a PF. But, Bosh is apparently a PF who can shoot and gets 6 something rebounds a game. To me it's just not crazy (88) impressive. I love you! |
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Chris Mullin
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Post by Chris Mullin on Apr 11, 2014 4:30:23 GMT
After listening to the arguments on both sides for the past week Id like to change my rating to an 85. Miami is the worst rebounding team in the league and Bosh has to get some blame for that. Also he isnt competing with another great rebounder which might skew his stats a bit.
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Minnesota Timberwolves
