January 21st

[Ian Noble]

SPACINGSPACINGSPAC	SPACINGSPA	SPACINGSPA	SPACINGSPA	SPACINGSPACINGSPAC
Boston Celtics	90	@	111	Brooklyn Nets

		Min	FG	3PT	FT	TO	Blk	Stl	Reb	Ast	Pts
Enes Kanter		39	10/25	0/2	7/7	1	2	1	5	1	27
Jerami Grant		34	2/10	0/2	3/3	2	1	2	2	4	7
Jaylen Brown		27	3/5	1/2	1/1	2	0	1	7	1	8
Jamal Murray		35	2/6	1/2	2/3	1	0	2	4	1	7
Dante Exum		33	2/4	1/3	1/1	4	1	2	4	7	6
Montrezl Harrell		29	6/10	0/0	3/4	2	1	1	8	0	15
Sam Dekker		13	2/6	0/2	1/1	2	1	0	4	0	5
Cameron Payne		18	3/7	0/3	1/2	3	0	1	4	2	7
James Ennis		8	1/1	1/1	0/0	1	0	0	2	0	3
Glenn Robinson		4	2/2	1/1	0/0	0	0	0	0	0	5
Ben McLemore		0	0/0	0/0	0/0	0	0	0	0	0	0
Adreian Payne		0	0/0	0/0	0/0	0	0	0	0	0	0
Totals			33/76	5/18	19/22	18	6	10	40	16	90
SPACINGSPACINGSPACING	S	SPAC	SPACIN	SPACIN	SPACIN	SPAC	SPAC	SPAC	SPAC	SPAC	SPAC

		Min	FG	3PT	FT	TO	Blk	Stl	Reb	Ast	Pts
Willie C Stein		35	7/13	0/0	3/4	4	1	1	8	2	17
Domantas Sabonis		34	2/3	1/1	1/1	4	1	1	5	2	6
Michael K Gilchrist		22	6/12	0/0	4/5	0	1	1	7	5	16
Devin Booker		32	8/16	2/4	6/6	3	0	2	3	2	24
Ishmael Smith		41	6/9	3/4	2/3	1	0	2	0	9	17
Rodney Hood		20	5/13	1/4	4/4	2	1	0	3	1	15
Sean Kilpatrick		9	0/2	0/0	2/2	0	0	0	1	0	2
Miles Plumlee		23	3/6	0/0	2/6	1	1	2	10	0	8
Joe Harris		8	1/3	1/1	0/1	1	0	0	1	1	3
Tyler Ennis		8	1/4	1/2	0/0	0	0	1	0	1	3
Sergey Karasev		8	0/1	0/0	0/0	0	0	1	1	0	0
Shane Larkin		0	0/0	0/0	0/0	0	0	0	0	0	0
Totals			39/82	9/16	24/32	16	5	11	39	23	111
SPACINGSPACINGSPACING	S	SPAC	SPACIN	SPACIN	SPACIN	SPAC	SPAC	SPAC	SPAC	SPAC	SPAC

SPACINGSPACINGSPAC	SPACINGSPA	SPACINGSPA	SPACINGSPA	SPACINGSPACINGSPAC
New Orleans Pelicans	74	@	87	New York Knicks

		Min	FG	3PT	FT	TO	Blk	Stl	Reb	Ast	Pts
Andre Drummond		36	6/14	0/0	2/3	1	2	1	10	0	14
Donatas Motiejunas		38	1/5	0/0	3/6	3	2	4	8	0	5
Gordon Hayward		43	8/18	3/7	3/5	2	1	1	13	6	22
Andrew Wiggins		41	5/21	0/4	8/10	3	0	0	5	1	18
Tyus Jones		28	2/8	0/1	2/2	0	0	1	2	3	6
Shabazz Muhammad		11	1/2	1/1	0/1	1	0	1	2	0	3
Al-Farouq Aminu		18	1/5	0/4	1/1	4	2	0	4	0	3
Michael Beasley		11	1/1	0/0	0/0	1	0	1	3	2	2
KJ McDaniels		3	0/0	0/0	0/0	0	0	0	0	0	0
Alec Burks		3	0/0	0/0	0/0	0	0	0	0	0	0
Andre Roberson		8	0/0	0/0	1/1	1	0	0	1	0	1
Jordan Adams		0	0/0	0/0	0/0	0	0	0	0	0	0
Patrick Patterson		0	0/0	0/0	0/0	0	0	0	0	0	0
Totals			25/74	4/17	20/29	16	7	9	48	12	74
SPACINGSPACINGSPACING	S	SPAC	SPACIN	SPACIN	SPACIN	SPAC	SPAC	SPAC	SPAC	SPAC	SPAC

		Min	FG	3PT	FT	TO	Blk	Stl	Reb	Ast	Pts
Frank Kaminsky		37	10/20	4/6	4/4	4	0	0	6	1	28
Markieff Morris		24	0/0	0/0	1/2	1	0	3	10	0	1
Aaron Gordon		38	5/13	0/2	0/4	3	2	2	7	2	10
Buddy Hield		38	5/15	3/9	3/5	3	0	2	2	3	16
Ricky Rubio		36	5/14	2/3	3/4	1	0	3	6	9	15
Jusuf Nurkic		29	5/6	0/0	2/6	1	3	0	11	2	12
Tony Wroten		19	1/6	0/2	0/1	0	1	0	6	1	2
Wade Baldwin		11	1/3	0/0	1/1	0	0	0	0	0	3
Noah Vonleh		7	0/3	0/0	0/0	0	0	0	0	0	0
Carl Landry		1	0/0	0/0	0/0	0	0	0	0	0	0
Brandon Jennings		0	0/0	0/0	0/0	0	0	0	0	0	0
Robert Covington		0	0/0	0/0	0/0	0	0	0	0	0	0
Gerald Wallace		0	0/0	0/0	0/0	0	0	0	0	0	0
Totals			32/80	9/22	14/27	13	6	10	48	18	87
SPACINGSPACINGSPACING	S	SPAC	SPACIN	SPACIN	SPACIN	SPAC	SPAC	SPAC	SPAC	SPAC	SPAC

SPACINGSPACINGSPAC	SPACINGSPA	SPACINGSPA	SPACINGSPA	SPACINGSPACINGSPAC
Sacramento Kings	98	@	100	Orlando Magic

		Min	FG	3PT	FT	TO	Blk	Stl	Reb	Ast	Pts
Spencer Hawes		32	5/11	3/8	2/3	3	0	1	9	1	15
Trey Lyles		42	3/10	0/3	4/6	2	3	1	10	2	10
Otto Porter		35	5/14	0/5	0/0	3	1	2	10	2	10
Kent Bazemore		32	5/9	2/4	2/2	0	0	2	2	5	14
Damian Lillard		46	10/25	4/12	6/7	1	0	1	4	6	30
Jeremy Lin		11	0/1	0/0	0/0	1	0	1	1	3	0
Malik Beasley		11	3/4	1/1	1/1	1	0	0	0	2	8
Lance Thomas		11	1/1	0/0	1/1	1	0	0	2	0	3
Jonathon Simmons		10	2/2	0/0	0/0	2	0	0	0	2	4
Jordan Hill		10	2/2	0/0	0/0	0	0	0	0	0	4
Caris LeVert		0	0/0	0/0	0/0	0	0	0	0	0	0
Totals			36/79	10/33	16/20	14	4	8	38	23	98
SPACINGSPACINGSPACING	S	SPAC	SPACIN	SPACIN	SPACIN	SPAC	SPAC	SPAC	SPAC	SPAC	SPAC

		Min	FG	3PT	FT	TO	Blk	Stl	Reb	Ast	Pts
Rudy Gobert		39	14/26	0/0	2/2	3	2	3	15	1	30
Marquese Chriss		35	1/6	0/2	1/1	3	0	1	9	0	3
Boris Diaw		35	0/2	0/0	4/5	2	1	1	6	3	4
Evan Fournier		38	7/20	4/9	4/5	0	0	0	2	8	22
Dennis Schroder		39	8/15	3/3	2/2	3	0	0	2	7	21
Archie Goodwin		6	1/1	0/0	0/0	0	0	1	0	0	2
Kris Dunn		15	4/9	2/5	1/1	1	1	0	2	4	11
Jeremy Tyler		16	1/2	0/0	1/1	0	0	1	3	0	3
Jarrett Jack		7	1/1	0/0	1/1	0	1	2	0	1	3
Timofey Mozgov		9	0/0	0/0	1/1	1	0	0	3	0	1
Joel Anthony		1	0/0	0/0	0/0	0	1	0	0	0	0
Isaiah Canaan		0	0/0	0/0	0/0	0	0	0	0	0	0
Totals			37/82	9/19	17/19	13	6	9	42	24	100
SPACINGSPACINGSPACING	S	SPAC	SPACIN	SPACIN	SPACIN	SPAC	SPAC	SPAC	SPAC	SPAC	SPAC

SPACINGSPACINGSPAC	SPACINGSPA	SPACINGSPA	SPACINGSPA	SPACINGSPACINGSPAC
Chicago Bulls	111	@	123	Indiana Pacers

		Min	FG	3PT	FT	TO	Blk	Stl	Reb	Ast	Pts
Robin Lopez		38	4/4	0/0	2/3	4	1	2	7	2	10
Julius Randle		44	7/14	0/0	0/0	2	2	0	17	4	14
Kawhi Leonard		48	12/21	4/6	2/2	4	1	2	7	3	30
Jimmy Butler		27	0/12	0/6	2/3	1	3	1	3	2	2
Chris Paul		41	9/22	3/6	5/5	1	0	2	4	10	26
Gary Harris		25	3/8	1/6	1/1	1	0	0	4	2	8
Ty Lawson		21	4/6	2/3	0/1	1	0	1	2	3	10
Marvin Williams		11	1/2	0/1	2/2	0	0	1	1	0	4
Andrew Bogut		15	3/4	0/0	1/1	0	0	0	0	0	7
Kyle O'Quinn		0	0/0	0/0	0/0	0	0	0	0	0	0
D.J. Augustin		0	0/0	0/0	0/0	0	0	0	0	0	0
Norris Cole		0	0/0	0/0	0/0	0	0	0	0	0	0
Reggie Williams		0	0/0	0/0	0/0	0	0	0	0	0	0
Totals			43/93	10/28	15/18	14	7	9	45	26	111
SPACINGSPACINGSPACING	S	SPAC	SPACIN	SPACIN	SPACIN	SPAC	SPAC	SPAC	SPAC	SPAC	SPAC

		Min	FG	3PT	FT	TO	Blk	Stl	Reb	Ast	Pts
Al Jefferson		35	2/8	0/0	0/0	1	1	3	11	0	4
Danilo Gallinari		44	8/12	5/7	1/1	1	1	1	10	3	22
Louis Williams		34	11/21	6/14	1/1	0	0	4	5	7	29
Manu Ginobili		29	5/13	2/10	0/0	3	0	0	1	4	12
Monta Ellis		39	9/15	2/4	1/2	3	1	1	1	7	21
Joe Johnson		15	0/2	0/0	1/1	0	0	0	2	1	1
James Johnson		15	4/7	2/2	1/2	3	1	0	3	2	11
Beno Udrih		11	2/5	1/4	0/0	0	0	0	0	0	5
Ian Mahinmi		14	4/5	0/0	1/2	0	0	0	0	0	9
Jose Barea		12	4/6	0/0	1/1	0	0	0	0	0	9
Bobby Portis		22	0/0	0/0	0/0	2	1	0	8	3	0
Rashad Vaughn		0	0/0	0/0	0/0	0	0	0	0	0	0
Nik Stauskas		0	0/0	0/0	0/0	0	0	0	0	0	0
Drew Gooden		0	0/0	0/0	0/0	0	0	0	0	0	0
Totals			49/94	18/41	7/10	13	5	9	41	27	123
SPACINGSPACINGSPACING	S	SPAC	SPACIN	SPACIN	SPACIN	SPAC	SPAC	SPAC	SPAC	SPAC	SPAC

SPACINGSPACINGSPAC	SPACINGSPA	SPACINGSPA	SPACINGSPA	SPACINGSPACINGSPAC
Charlotte Hornets	83	@	90	Milwaukee Bucks

		Min	FG	3PT	FT	TO	Blk	Stl	Reb	Ast	Pts
Nerlens Noel		43	9/20	0/1	3/3	3	3	1	9	0	21
Serge Ibaka		36	3/4	1/1	3/3	2	1	0	4	0	10
Khris Middleton		39	5/11	2/7	1/1	0	1	1	4	2	13
Kentavious C Pope		37	1/8	0/4	0/0	6	0	2	7	3	2
Russell Westbrook		42	8/17	1/6	2/4	2	0	3	4	7	19
Goran Dragic		17	4/6	2/2	0/0	0	0	1	3	8	10
Omri Casspi		12	0/2	0/1	0/0	1	0	1	2	0	0
CJ Watson		14	4/4	0/0	0/0	0	1	0	1	2	8
Jared Dudley		0	0/0	0/0	0/0	0	0	0	0	0	0
John Henson		0	0/0	0/0	0/0	0	0	0	0	0	0
Brandon Ingram		0	0/0	0/0	0/0	0	0	0	0	0	0
Darrell Arthur		0	0/0	0/0	0/0	0	0	0	0	0	0
James Jones		0	0/0	0/0	0/0	0	0	0	0	0	0
E'Twaun Moore		0	0/0	0/0	0/0	0	0	0	0	0	0
Totals			34/72	6/22	9/11	14	6	9	34	22	83
SPACINGSPACINGSPACING	S	SPAC	SPACIN	SPACIN	SPACIN	SPAC	SPAC	SPAC	SPAC	SPAC	SPAC

		Min	FG	3PT	FT	TO	Blk	Stl	Reb	Ast	Pts
Marc Gasol		44	6/10	0/2	1/1	3	3	1	9	1	13
Anthony Davis		38	9/20	0/0	2/2	2	1	2	10	6	20
Chandler Parsons		38	5/7	2/2	2/2	3	0	2	8	5	14
Bradley Beal		38	5/14	1/3	2/3	2	0	1	4	5	13
Jeff Teague		38	7/17	4/8	3/3	2	1	1	1	4	21
Avery Bradley		17	1/3	1/2	0/0	0	0	2	1	1	3
Myles Turner		9	0/1	0/0	0/0	0	0	1	0	0	0
Doug McDermott		12	2/3	0/0	0/0	1	0	0	1	1	4
Marco Belinelli		3	0/0	0/0	0/0	0	0	0	0	0	0
Allen Crabbe		2	1/1	0/0	0/0	0	0	0	0	0	2
Stanley Johnson		1	0/0	0/0	0/0	0	0	0	0	0	0
Maurice Harkless		0	0/0	0/0	0/0	0	0	0	0	0	0
Jeremy Lamb		0	0/0	0/0	0/0	0	0	0	0	0	0
Dejounte Murray		0	0/0	0/0	0/0	0	0	0	0	0	0
Perry Jones		0	0/0	0/0	0/0	0	0	0	0	0	0
Totals			36/76	8/17	10/11	13	5	10	34	23	90
SPACINGSPACINGSPACING	S	SPAC	SPACIN	SPACIN	SPACIN	SPAC	SPAC	SPAC	SPAC	SPAC	SPAC

SPACINGSPACINGSPAC	SPACINGSPA	SPACINGSPA	SPACINGSPA	SPACINGSPACINGSPAC
Cleveland Cavaliers	110	@	75	Utah Jazz

		Min	FG	3PT	FT	TO	Blk	Stl	Reb	Ast	Pts
Kristaps Porzingis		40	4/15	2/6	3/3	0	2	3	9	2	13
Boban Marjanovic		37	5/9	0/0	6/6	2	3	2	10	2	16
Danny Green		39	7/15	4/10	5/6	6	4	1	9	2	23
Jordan Clarkson		37	8/18	0/4	3/6	4	0	0	6	3	19
Patrick Beverley		26	6/12	4/8	4/4	4	0	1	2	3	20
Jeff Green		17	3/7	2/3	2/2	0	1	0	2	1	10
Tony Allen		13	1/4	0/0	1/1	0	0	1	2	2	3
Mario Chalmers		2	0/0	0/0	0/0	0	0	0	0	0	0
Mirza Teletovic		0	0/0	0/0	0/0	0	0	0	0	0	0
Rodney Stuckey		19	3/6	0/1	0/0	0	0	2	4	5	6
Cole Aldrich		10	0/1	0/0	0/1	0	0	0	3	0	0
Jordan McRae		0	0/0	0/0	0/0	0	0	0	0	0	0
JaVale McGee		0	0/0	0/0	0/0	0	0	0	0	0	0
Thomas Robinson		0	0/0	0/0	0/0	0	0	0	0	0	0
Totals			37/87	12/32	24/29	16	10	10	47	20	110
SPACINGSPACINGSPACING	S	SPAC	SPACIN	SPACIN	SPACIN	SPAC	SPAC	SPAC	SPAC	SPAC	SPAC

		Min	FG	3PT	FT	TO	Blk	Stl	Reb	Ast	Pts
Hassan Whiteside		32	5/18	0/1	1/2	2	2	2	4	0	11
Dakari Johnson		27	3/10	0/0	4/5	3	1	1	7	0	10
Justin Anderson		37	5/14	1/6	2/3	2	1	3	7	1	13
Denzel Valentine		36	3/8	1/4	1/1	1	0	1	6	5	8
Emmanuel Mudiay		40	9/16	2/5	2/4	3	0	1	6	6	22
Jordan Mickey		21	0/0	0/0	0/0	0	1	1	4	0	0
Rondae H Jefferson		21	1/5	0/1	2/2	1	1	1	7	2	4
Timothe Luwawu		8	1/2	0/0	0/0	0	0	0	0	0	2
Joe Young		18	1/5	1/1	2/3	4	0	0	2	1	5
Georgios Papagianni		0	0/0	0/0	0/0	0	0	0	0	0	0
Deyonta Davis		0	0/0	0/0	0/0	0	0	0	0	0	0
Ivica Zubac		0	0/0	0/0	0/0	0	0	0	0	0	0
Totals			28/78	5/18	14/20	16	6	10	43	15	75
SPACINGSPACINGSPACING	S	SPAC	SPACIN	SPACIN	SPACIN	SPAC	SPAC	SPAC	SPAC	SPAC	SPAC

[Jeremiah Hill]

Is Westbrook in the game as a PG or SG? His stats have sucked this year for no apparent reason.

[Ian Noble]

Feb 28, 2017 20:47:47 GMT Jeremiah Hill said:

Is Westbrook in the game as a PG or SG? His stats have sucked this year for no apparent reason.

Me and Walt have recently looked into this phenomenon with Westbrook (and Harden).

Both Westbrook and Harden's FG and 3PT skill ratings were edited to be in line with their real life shooting percentages, and Walt's done a fanastic job of achieving it.

The thing is - there is no rating for "Usage Rate" in the sim engine. NBA Live treats FG, 3PT and Inside Scoring ratings as synonymous with Usage Rate at a rate that's hard to measure. So decreasing Westbrook and Harden's ratings to match their percentages also meant they shot less shots, which is unrealistic.

The sim is flawed in this sense. The solution is to balance player ratings with desired shooting percentages, luckily this only has to be done for high usage players. I will be manually gradually adjusting their ratings until they become more realistic throughout the rest of the season to experiment but I've started by bumping them up to 80 for both ratings. The ratings will be shown in the ratings Stock Watch thread whenever I update it, if you want to reference it.

Worth referencing these guys since they'll be interested, although I've already mentioned it to Alex:
Alex English
James Kay

[James Kay]

Feb 28, 2017 20:59:15 GMT Ian Noble said:

Feb 28, 2017 20:47:47 GMT Jeremiah Hill said:

Is Westbrook in the game as a PG or SG? His stats have sucked this year for no apparent reason.

Me and Walt have recently looked into this phenomenon with Westbrook (and Harden).

Both Westbrook and Harden's FG and 3PT skill ratings were edited to be in line with their real life shooting percentages, and Walt's done a fanastic job of achieving it.

The thing is - there is no rating for "Usage Rate" in the sim engine. NBA Live treats FG, 3PT and Inside Scoring ratings as synonymous with Usage Rate at a rate that's hard to measure. So decreasing Westbrook and Harden's ratings to match their percentages also meant they shot less shots, which is unrealistic.

The sim is flawed in this sense. The solution is to balance player ratings with desired shooting percentages, luckily this only has to be done for high usage players. I will be manually gradually adjusting their ratings until they become more realistic throughout the rest of the season to experiment but I've started by bumping them up to 80 for both ratings. The ratings will be shown in the ratings Stock Watch thread whenever I update it, if you want to reference it.

Worth referencing these guys since they'll be interested, although I've already mentioned it to Alex:
Alex English
James Kay

I’m definitely pretty confused by it. But as Ian said you can’t control usage rate. It seems like if you want a guy to perform like Westbrook or Harden IRL you have to strand him on a team like Fournier which actually may not translate to team success. Again, as Ian said, it’s hard to balance difficulty and volume of shots with their actual percentages. Sure, Harden shoots 35% from three but he does so on 9+ attempts with a great degree of difficulty so while he may not be Curry, he’s certainly better than that 35% represents. Westbrook too, although not as much as Harden, obviously.

As far as actual statistical results go, I think Alex probably has a bigger reason to gripe because at least Westbrook’s percentages are respectable.

Then again, I think the Hornets are better fitted to accommodate Westbrook than the Nuggets are to maximize Harden’s abilities.

Wall, Aldridge, and Lopez are all rather ball dominant scorers, and if that team formed in real-life, maybe they’d buy into some sort of offense structured around Harden like Houston has now, but Wall, Aldridge, and Lopez have demonstrated games that are entirely different from the kick-out 3 and rim-running bigs that currently surround Harden IRL. Wall is one of the very best creators in the game today, Aldridge loves to iso the mid-range, and Lopez is mainly a low-post scorer(although he has become quite the three point threat lately) – totally different games from Bev, Anderson, and Capela. So while Wall, Aldridge, and Lopez may theoretically have the skills to conform next to Harden, their current IRL tendencies and play-styles are what we reflect into the ratings, so that is something that might be worth considering when looking at Harden’s D5 performance.

On the other hand, given the team context I am somewhat disappointed in RW so far, but only really based on wins/team performance. I sort of tried to model the D5 Hornets after the real life OKC except… better, so from that perspective I feel like Westbrook should be doing a little better in D5 than he is currently, although he is leading the league in assists. From positions 2-5 I think I’d choose the D5 Hornets over any player from the IRL OKC 2-5 – none of my players really need the ball in their hands, but KCP and Middleton are both capable of creating for themselves and others. What I don’t get is how KCP and Noel are both shooting 39% and averaging a combined 5.8 turnovers. What’s also especially concerning and confusing is Noel’s volume of scoring. 39% for a center is just historically bad for a guy getting 16 ppg and with creators like RW and Middleton I simply don’t understand what’s happening down there for a guy who’s shooting 61% IRL. Thinking about it now, the D5 Hornets are kinda like a younger/better version of the real life Rockets: KCP/Bev, Middleton/Ariza, Ibaka/Anderson, Noel/Capela, with Dragic/Gordon? Westbrook really isn’t playing that poorly in D5– with a team like this he doesn’t need to have the insane usage rate he has in OKC. Plus what Westbrook is doing is pretty much inhuman lol like any other normal person would be exhausted so I’m not even sure that the sim is capable of representing that. So yeah, I’m not really upset with how Westbrook is performing, just confused by the incredibly poor performances of KCP and Noel.

Regardless, I don’t want anyone to take this as me complaining, I’m just trying to give my own objective analysis of the situation. The sim is a fickle beast and we all have our own gripes with it, and all anyone can really do is tinker. I wouldn’t necessarily be opposed to updating to a new sim engine though, if possible, depending on the alternatives.

Bonus mind-blowing stat: IRL Andre Roberson is quite literally having a better offensive season than D5 KCP. Roberson might be a bottom 3 shooter in the entire NBA lol.

Double bonus stat: Thinking about how many more assists Westbrook would have if he wasn’t passing it to Roberson, Dipo, Sabonis, Morrow, Payne, etc.

https://www.reddit.com/r/nba/comments/5u9zx5/analysis_of_okc_thunder_shooting/

If you look at these numbers it’s actually astounding he’s averaging as many assists as he is.

[Deleted]

NBAlive06


#notmysimengine

[Hanamichi Sakuragi]

thanks BK..

[Kevin Hollis]

No offense but Alex has 4 players that demand the ball. If harden were on a team like the rockets irl he would be realistic. That is the price you pay with a million superstars on your team.

Westbrook should be balanced bc of the team makeup, but not harden. Put harden at pg and see if it changes. This is like me complaining boogie and Durant only shoot 15-20 times a game and shumpert is shooting too much. I think this is settingg a bad precedent. As said, it's a sim, not everything  can be perfect, especially with the random team comps.

[Alex English]

Feb 28, 2017 23:41:58 GMT Kevin Hollis said:

No offense but Alex has 4 players that demand the ball. If harden were on a team like the rockets irl he would be realistic. That is the price you pay with a million superstars on your team.

Westbrook should be balanced bc of the team makeup, but not harden. Put harden at pg and see if it changes. This is like me complaining boogie and Durant only shoot 15-20 times a game and shumpert is shooting too much. I think this is settingg a bad precedent. As said, it's a sim, not everything  can be perfect, especially with the random team comps.

That's not the issue. He can be great on 12-15 attempts per game, that's fine. The problem is that he's been total trash no matter the size of his role on the team. Since his boost to a 95 rating (which resulted in scoring category decreases) he's been shooting 40.1% overall and 28.6% from three and only scoring 16.2 ppg. He's just been terrible no matter how you look at it, and he was fine before all of the changes. Check his stats last season and you'll see Harden can play well with my other stars.

[reporter]

Feb 28, 2017 23:58:08 GMT Alex English said:

Feb 28, 2017 23:41:58 GMT Kevin Hollis said:

No offense but Alex has 4 players that demand the ball. If harden were on a team like the rockets irl he would be realistic. That is the price you pay with a million superstars on your team.

Westbrook should be balanced bc of the team makeup, but not harden. Put harden at pg and see if it changes. This is like me complaining boogie and Durant only shoot 15-20 times a game and shumpert is shooting too much. I think this is settingg a bad precedent. As said, it's a sim, not everything  can be perfect, especially with the random team comps.

That's not the issue. He can be great on 12-15 attempts per game, that's fine. The problem is that he's been total trash no matter the size of his role on the team. Since his boost to a 95 rating (which resulted in scoring category decreases) he's been shooting 40.1% overall and 28.6% from three and only scoring 16.2 ppg. He's just been terrible no matter how you look at it, and he was fine before all of the changes. Check his stats last season and you'll see Harden can play well with my other stars.

According to my sources, a rift between your stars started last offseason, after your team failed to make the Western Conference Finals. 

It seems like the rumors are true.

[Jeremiah Hill]

Who is this guy?

[Walt Frazier]

Mar 1, 2017 0:38:34 GMT Jeremiah Hill said:

Who is this guy?

My gut says it's Vlade. Have not asked him and have no proof, other than I've known him for a while and it just feels like him for some reason or another.

[James Kay]

Mar 1, 2017 2:23:50 GMT Walt Frazier said:

Mar 1, 2017 0:38:34 GMT Jeremiah Hill said:

Who is this guy?

My gut says it's Vlade. Have not asked him and have no proof, other than I've known him for a while and it just feels like him for some reason or another.

based on the users first few posts i don't believe they are a native english speaker

[Kevin Hollis]

Feb 28, 2017 23:58:08 GMT Alex English said:

Feb 28, 2017 23:41:58 GMT Kevin Hollis said:

No offense but Alex has 4 players that demand the ball. If harden were on a team like the rockets irl he would be realistic. That is the price you pay with a million superstars on your team.

Westbrook should be balanced bc of the team makeup, but not harden. Put harden at pg and see if it changes. This is like me complaining boogie and Durant only shoot 15-20 times a game and shumpert is shooting too much. I think this is settingg a bad precedent. As said, it's a sim, not everything  can be perfect, especially with the random team comps.

That's not the issue. He can be great on 12-15 attempts per game, that's fine. The problem is that he's been total trash no matter the size of his role on the team. Since his boost to a 95 rating (which resulted in scoring category decreases) he's been shooting 40.1% overall and 28.6% from three and only scoring 16.2 ppg. He's just been terrible no matter how you look at it, and he was fine before all of the changes. Check his stats last season and you'll see Harden can play well with my other stars.

You are playing him at SF, what do you expect? Being guarded by guys 5- inches taller than him etc. we can't just start messing with players stats every time someone isn't happy about what's going on. How many people in our league wish their guys played exactly like they want him too? Not to mention harden almost had a triple double with 40 some points the other day.

[Walt Frazier]

Mar 1, 2017 2:28:46 GMT James Kay said:

Mar 1, 2017 2:23:50 GMT Walt Frazier said:

My gut says it's Vlade. Have not asked him and have no proof, other than I've known him for a while and it just feels like him for some reason or another.

based on the users first few posts i don't believe they are a native english speaker

Vlade's a Texan

[reporter]

Regarding Harden and Westbrook, how about considering the guys on the other end of the spectrum? The Danny Greens and Fourniers. Do we consider them as anomalies too? If no, why?

[Charles Barkley]

So what Ian is trying to accomplish is get the same output of Harden in game as he has in real life.

I believe I have touched on this topic greatly as to why this is the worst idea in the world, next to Per 36 stats.

If you want Harden to perform as he does in RL, you need his ratings to be 100% accurate, first and foremost. Making them inaccurate is counter-intuitive to this whole process.

Next, you need to put the RL Rockets around Alex's Nuggets, something I doubt Alex wants to do.

Third, you need to make it so that Alex's Nuggets, as the RL Rockets, play the proper RL opponent equivalent in the sim, and, the correct schedule.

Then, you need to make each player play the same amount of minutes in sim as they do IRL, and have it line up perfectly.

And finally, once you have done all of those things, you sim. And if the sim comes out wrong, it is likely because NBA Live 06 has some weird ass settings for the META of the game.

This is the most absurd thing in the world. You are increasing player's attributes when they shouldn't be increased, because no one voted on them to be that way, and then simming games that count for everyone's records with inflated numbers. All because Alex's Nuggets aren't performing like they should be.

Just change Harden's Primacy rating, quit fucking with his shooting. The game doesn't acknowledge ball movement like there is in today's game; it is based on an iso-heavy league. Dirk freaking broke the game because he was big and shoots 3s.

Alex, if you want your team to perform well with HArden replicating RL, either trade for the RL Rockets, or do things to change your team's primacy rating.

I wish we could inflate my player's attributes because they aren't playing well.

[Walt Frazier]

Mar 1, 2017 2:46:53 GMT Charles Barkley said:

So what Ian is trying to accomplish is get the same output of Harden in game as he has in real life.

I believe I have touched on this topic greatly as to why this is the worst idea in the world, next to Per 36 stats.

If you want Harden to perform as he does in RL, you need his ratings to be 100% accurate, first and foremost. Making them inaccurate is counter-intuitive to this whole process.

Next, you need to put the RL Rockets around Alex's Nuggets, something I doubt Alex wants to do.

Third, you need to make it so that Alex's Nuggets, as the RL Rockets, play the proper RL opponent equivalent in the sim, and, the correct schedule.

Then, you need to make each player play the same amount of minutes in sim as they do IRL, and have it line up perfectly.

And finally, once you have done all of those things, you sim. And if the sim comes out wrong, it is likely because NBA Live 06 has some weird ass settings for the META of the game.

This is the most absurd thing in the world. You are increasing player's attributes when they shouldn't be increased, because no one voted on them to be that way, and then simming games that count for everyone's records with inflated numbers. All because Alex's Nuggets aren't performing like they should be.

Just change Harden's Primacy rating, quit fucking with his shooting. The game doesn't acknowledge ball movement like there is in today's game; it is based on an iso-heavy league. Dirk freaking broke the game because he was big and shoots 3s.

Alex, if you want your team to perform well with HArden replicating RL, either trade for the RL Rockets, or do things to change your team's primacy rating.

I wish we could inflate my player's attributes because they aren't playing well.

I gotta admit this is fair. Did we decrease all of Hana's players' ratings last year because he was overperforming? Nope.

[Charles Barkley]

Mar 1, 2017 2:50:34 GMT Walt Frazier said:

Mar 1, 2017 2:46:53 GMT Charles Barkley said:

So what Ian is trying to accomplish is get the same output of Harden in game as he has in real life.

I believe I have touched on this topic greatly as to why this is the worst idea in the world, next to Per 36 stats.

If you want Harden to perform as he does in RL, you need his ratings to be 100% accurate, first and foremost. Making them inaccurate is counter-intuitive to this whole process.

Next, you need to put the RL Rockets around Alex's Nuggets, something I doubt Alex wants to do.

Third, you need to make it so that Alex's Nuggets, as the RL Rockets, play the proper RL opponent equivalent in the sim, and, the correct schedule.

Then, you need to make each player play the same amount of minutes in sim as they do IRL, and have it line up perfectly.

And finally, once you have done all of those things, you sim. And if the sim comes out wrong, it is likely because NBA Live 06 has some weird ass settings for the META of the game.

This is the most absurd thing in the world. You are increasing player's attributes when they shouldn't be increased, because no one voted on them to be that way, and then simming games that count for everyone's records with inflated numbers. All because Alex's Nuggets aren't performing like they should be.

Just change Harden's Primacy rating, quit fucking with his shooting. The game doesn't acknowledge ball movement like there is in today's game; it is based on an iso-heavy league. Dirk freaking broke the game because he was big and shoots 3s.

Alex, if you want your team to perform well with HArden replicating RL, either trade for the RL Rockets, or do things to change your team's primacy rating.

I wish we could inflate my player's attributes because they aren't playing well.

I gotta admit this is fair. Did we decrease all of Hana's players' ratings last year because he was overperforming? Nope.

Do you mean what I said is fair or what Ian is doing is fair?

[Walt Frazier]

Mar 1, 2017 2:55:04 GMT Charles Barkley said:

Mar 1, 2017 2:50:34 GMT Walt Frazier said:

I gotta admit this is fair. Did we decrease all of Hana's players' ratings last year because he was overperforming? Nope.

Do you mean what I said is fair or what Ian is doing is fair?

I meant what you said is fair.

Although, on the OTHER side of that, just b/c we didn't do that last year doesn't mean we shouldn't have done it. In other words, why can we not try to do better?

We know the Sim can't handle assists/passing/something to do with all of that properly, compared to today's game.

Maybe it sucks at usage rate. Or maybe it literally does use FG to represent a usage rate of some sort. Higher FG players take more FG's than lower FG players.

That's the reason why I don't like to raise Pass ratings for guys like Jokic TOO high, b/c I'm scared this sim engine will make them get more assists rather than just be a better passer.

It's confusing.

I will say, (and I don't think he'll mind me sharing this), that Ian ran 12-seasons worth of Sims very recently with the rosters as they are right now in our league. All he changed was Westbrook's FG rating, with 4 seasons each at the following ratings.

When set at a 99, he averaged 24.625 ppg, 1612.75 FGA, had a 49.38% FG, took 378 3PA, and shot 33.23% from 3
When set at a 80, he averaged 22.025 ppg, 1530.00 FGA, had a 44.90% FG, took 373.25 3PA, shot 35.20% from 3
When set at a 70, he averaged 20.200 ppg, 1469.75 FGA, had a 41.85% FG, took 357.75 3PA, shot 34.23% from 3

So overall, the biggest thing I took out of that was the game is using FG Rating to decide who is shooting how often, at least to some extent.

This also confirms my hesitancy to raise "good passers who don't get as many assists as PG's do" Pass ratings too high, b/c this game doesn't work a intuitively as we would like.

So, do we just acknowledge that we have learned something about this game, and now use that knowledge to improve the game's performance at least moderately? Even incrementally? Any improvement is good, though in this case, it's a balancing act. We CAN'T (literally, even at a 99 FG rating he is like 7 points shy of his real-life ppg output) just raise FG until the player meets their ppg output. But, we could balance out a bit, and try to realize that the low 70's start to get messy for high-usage players.

I'm still in mid-thought on all of this, trying to digest it, and there would be some experimentation which is the part I don't like in-season. But, all our rating changes have this nature if I'm being honest. I process rating changes vastly differently this year than I did 3 years ago b/c I'm always learning and (hopefully) improving my knowledge of how this game works and even my understanding of the NBA game as more and more advanced metrics are made more readily available.

OK, that's a big post. Bye now

[Walt Frazier]

All that being said, if Jokic keeps throwing down 10 assists then he'll deserve an 80's or 90's pass rating, lol.

[Alex English]

Mar 1, 2017 2:33:25 GMT Kevin Hollis said:

You are playing him at SF, what do you expect? Being guarded by guys 5- inches taller than him etc. we can't just start messing with players stats every time someone isn't happy about what's going on. How many people in our league wish their guys played exactly like they want him too? Not to mention harden almost had a triple double with 40 some points the other day.

Playing at SF will have little to do with. If anything I think it would help because Harden has a high Inside Scoring rating and being in a forward spot could have the game use it more. I've been tracking all of Harden's game logs and the result is clear imo. Everything revolves around the decrease in his FG and 3PT ratings. Even when he went from a 90 to a 95 his FG category went unchanged and his 3PT rating was decreased. He's playing like an empty 95. It's an illusion that he's an elite player right now because despite his high overall, his individual category ratings make him mediocre at best.

Also this:

Mar 1, 2017 2:33:25 GMT Kevin Hollis said:

Not to mention harden almost had a triple double with 40 some points the other day.

Will be directly related to this:

Feb 28, 2017 20:59:15 GMT Ian Noble said:

I've started by bumping them up to 80 for both ratings.

I also didn't ask for that, or know about it until after the fact, same as you. Nor do I really want it because I agree things shouldn't be messed with in the sim. I'd rather Harden be left with his 70 FG and 74 3PT ratings indefinitely until it's so obvious he's a piece of shit player in the sim that we have to do something about it, or until I'm proven wrong and Harden starts playing like an elite player again. I kind of don't care either way. I'm definitely past the point of believing this is just a slump though, because it's been going on for half a season.

[Deleted]

So do we get to adjust ratings for every stat that doesn't look right now?

Haven't I been shouted down for years for saying we should try to get the players stats to look like real life?

[Charles Barkley]

Mar 1, 2017 3:13:32 GMT Walt Frazier said:

All that being said, if Jokic keeps throwing down 10 assists then he'll deserve an 80's or 90's pass rating, lol.

We should just use the real-gm sim, it seems to work a lot more fluidly, even tho it too has its quirks, at least it is more realistic. But, you may end up winning 20 in a row to lose 14 in a row

[Jeremiah Hill]

What happens if we copy the real life rosters into an instance of NBA Live and then run a season and see what kind of stats it pukes out? That would kind of resolve the "its a team comp thing" wouldn't it?

[Walt Frazier]

Mar 1, 2017 3:18:47 GMT @riogho said:

So do we get to adjust ratings for every stat that doesn't look right now?

Haven't I been shouted down for years for saying we should try to get the players stats to look like real life?

I would say Ian's goal isn't necessarily to make Harden a carbon copy. It's more closely related to trying to make Harden play like the best player on his team. Or at least, like a good player? He has really been underperforming. Russ too. You may still think this is a bad approach, and I won't even argue that point right now one way or the other, but this is different from trying to match exactly and is more related to just how non-realistically a couple of players are performing right now. We've all accepted we can't carbon-copy real-life stats in here. Pass/Assist is the obvious one, but it seems we've uncovered another in FG-is-also-usage-rate-to-some-extent.

[James Kay]

Is it sacrilege to say that we need to very seriously start considering moving to another sim engine for next year?

At this point it's kind of ridiculous because the game of basketball is so different than it was 11 years ago. The assists leaders are 7.8, 7.2, and 6.9. Draymond Green is 8th IRL and averages 7.2 lol. And Walt (his efforts both commendable and appreciated by everyone in the league) is essentially practicing witchcraft - we're not even exactly sure what ratings affect which skills. Plus, besides all that, we're hampered by technology from 2006. Facebook began in 2006.

The biggest downside to a new engine I can see are the stockwatch threads. They're some of the most active and fun parts of the league. If there is a way to keep those and use a more modern engine, I'd be all for it.

[Alex English]

Mar 1, 2017 2:46:53 GMT Charles Barkley said:

So what Ian is trying to accomplish is get the same output of Harden in game as he has in real life.

I believe I have touched on this topic greatly as to why this is the worst idea in the world, next to Per 36 stats.

If you want Harden to perform as he does in RL, you need his ratings to be 100% accurate, first and foremost. Making them inaccurate is counter-intuitive to this whole process.

Next, you need to put the RL Rockets around Alex's Nuggets, something I doubt Alex wants to do.

Third, you need to make it so that Alex's Nuggets, as the RL Rockets, play the proper RL opponent equivalent in the sim, and, the correct schedule.

Then, you need to make each player play the same amount of minutes in sim as they do IRL, and have it line up perfectly.

And finally, once you have done all of those things, you sim. And if the sim comes out wrong, it is likely because NBA Live 06 has some weird ass settings for the META of the game.

This is the most absurd thing in the world. You are increasing player's attributes when they shouldn't be increased, because no one voted on them to be that way, and then simming games that count for everyone's records with inflated numbers. All because Alex's Nuggets aren't performing like they should be.

Just change Harden's Primacy rating, quit fucking with his shooting. The game doesn't acknowledge ball movement like there is in today's game; it is based on an iso-heavy league. Dirk freaking broke the game because he was big and shoots 3s.

Alex, if you want your team to perform well with HArden replicating RL, either trade for the RL Rockets, or do things to change your team's primacy rating.

I wish we could inflate my player's attributes because they aren't playing well.

I agree with most of your points. I'm not sure if some of you are projecting opinions on to me that I don't hold, but I don't want a mirror image of real life Harden on my team, nor do I want his ratings to be messed with.

I do want Harden to play well. He's one of the best player in the NBA, has like a 50/50 shot of winning the MVP along with Westbrook, and his Rockets are tearing it up. The entire point of the stockwatch section is to have the good players in the NBA be the good players in D5, and currently one of the best in the NBA is trash in D5, so something is wrong.

Harden was great last season, and he was great early this season until... his FG and 3PT ratings were decreased from 84 and 85 to 70 and 74 respectively. I have a big long PM thread with Ian where I've asked him to try things, including adjusting primacy, and it's at the point where the root cause is becoming quite clear.

Primacy does very little in fact, at least in the long run. I asked Ian to max out Afflalo's primacy because he has crazy high FG and 3PT ratings and it worked for one game (that time he score 33 points), then the game kind of ignored the primacy ratings and went back to doing whatever it does.

[Kevin Hollis]

Mar 1, 2017 3:26:09 GMT Jeremiah Hill said:

What happens if we copy the real life rosters into an instance of NBA Live and then run a season and see what kind of stats it pukes out? That would kind of resolve the "its a team comp thing" wouldn't it?

Regardless, if we start tweaking people just bc it's not working, then everyone has a valid arguement to have their players changed the way the want. Unless wat wants to quit his job and do rating changes 60 hours a week, leave it as is. And I am a firm believer if you move harden out of the Sf position he will do s lot better. Just because he has s high inside scoring doesn't mean he will dominate inside. If that's the case, put harden at center.

[Walt Frazier]

Mar 1, 2017 3:34:54 GMT Kevin Hollis said:

Mar 1, 2017 3:26:09 GMT Jeremiah Hill said:

What happens if we copy the real life rosters into an instance of NBA Live and then run a season and see what kind of stats it pukes out? That would kind of resolve the "its a team comp thing" wouldn't it?

Regardless, if we start tweaking people just bc it's not working, then everyone has a valid arguement to have their players changed the way the want. Unless wat wants to quit his job and do rating changes 60 hours a week, leave it as is. And I am a firm believer if you move harden out of the Sf position he will do s lot better. Just because he has s high inside scoring doesn't mean he will dominate inside. If that's the case, put harden at center.

I'm unsure about the SF thing but most of this is also good and valid thinking/argument as well.

And yea, let me have a life! lol

Actually, if you all want to pay me to do ratings, I'd gladly quit my current job, but I for some reason don't think we can scrounge up enough to make that happen....

Damn

[reporter]

#Time2Look4rABetterEngine?

But, is there a better engine?