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Post by Alex English on Mar 1, 2017 4:13:31 GMT
And I am a firm believer if you move harden out of the Sf position he will do s lot better. I just looked at it, and there's no real difference in how well he's played. These are his last 25 games at SG: 35.4 mpg, 22.9 ppg, 7.0 apg, 4.3 rpg, 1.1 spg, 0.3 bpg, 40.8 FG%, 31.9 3P% He's pretty much the definition of an inefficient volume scorer. 23 ppg, but on terrible shooting percentages, he's not helping my team win at all playing like that. These are his last 11 games, which have been at SF: 36.1 mpg, 15.5 ppg, 6.9 apg, 4.0 rpg, 1.2 spg, 0.1 bpg, 41.6 FG%, 25.4 3P% Pretty much equally inefficient. The important thing to say about these games though is that I also asked Ian to decrease Harden's primacy because I didn't want him to have a main role on my team when he's shooting like shit. I just wanted him to be a facilitator. That kind of worked as his PPG has dropped significantly in the last 11 games despite being about equally inefficient. That seems to have really helped my team though, now that I look at it: Record in Harden's 25 games at SG: 16-9 Record in Harden's 11 games at SF: 8-3 So minimizing Harden's offensive role has actually helped my team win. Is that really what we want? A real life MVP candidate and one of the best offensive players in the league has to be minimized in D5 in order to help his team win games. Harden is obviously broken in the sim. What should we do about it? |
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Post by James Kay on Mar 1, 2017 4:18:24 GMT
And I am a firm believer if you move harden out of the Sf position he will do s lot better. The important thing to say about these games though is that I also asked Ian to decrease Harden's primacy because I didn't want him to have a main role on my team when he's shooting like shit. I just wanted him to be a facilitator. That kind of worked as his PPG has dropped significantly in the last 11 games despite being about equally inefficient. That seems to have really helped my team though, now that I look at it: Record in Harden's 25 games at SG: 16-9 Record in Harden's 11 games at SF: 8-3 So minimizing Harden's offensive role has actually helped my team win. Uhh so is Ian just modifying primacy ratings by request now? |
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Post by Alex English on Mar 1, 2017 4:23:31 GMT
Is it sacrilege to say that we need to very seriously start considering moving to another sim engine for next year? I'm personally fine with both a new sim engine and staying with this one, but from discussions I've already had with Ian, he really doesn't want this. His long term plan is to build his own sim engine with the stand alone website he's building for D5. It's kind of the end result of him learning to code and make the programs that already post our results and standing and stuff. His plan is to deal with NBA Live 06 until we move to his own sim engine. So yea, I'm not sure that topic will lead anywhere. |
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Kevin Hollis
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Post by Kevin Hollis on Mar 1, 2017 4:24:19 GMT
Regardless, if we start tweaking people just bc it's not working, then everyone has a valid arguement to have their players changed the way the want. Unless wat wants to quit his job and do rating changes 60 hours a week, leave it as is. And I am a firm believer if you move harden out of the Sf position he will do s lot better. Just because he has s high inside scoring doesn't mean he will dominate inside. If that's the case, put harden at center. I'm unsure about the SF thing but most of this is also good and valid thinking/argument as well. And yea, let me have a life! lol Actually, if you all want to pay me to do ratings, I'd gladly quit my current job, but I for some reason don't think we can scrounge up enough to make that happen.... Damn As your employer's we would need to know your age, dob, social security number, home address, a see photo id. |
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Kevin Hollis
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Post by Kevin Hollis on Mar 1, 2017 4:28:52 GMT
And I am a firm believer if you move harden out of the Sf position he will do s lot better. I just looked at it, and there's no real difference in how well he's played. These are his last 25 games at SG: 35.4 mpg, 22.9 ppg, 7.0 apg, 4.3 rpg, 1.1 spg, 0.3 bpg, 40.8 FG%, 31.9 3P% He's pretty much the definition of an inefficient volume scorer. 23 ppg, but on terrible shooting percentages, he's not helping my team win at all playing like that. These are his last 11 games, which have been at SF: 36.1 mpg, 15.5 ppg, 6.9 apg, 4.0 rpg, 1.2 spg, 0.1 bpg, 41.6 FG%, 25.4 3P% Pretty much equally inefficient. The important thing to say about these games though is that I also asked Ian to decrease Harden's primacy because I didn't want him to have a main role on my team when he's shooting like shit. I just wanted him to be a facilitator. That kind of worked as his PPG has dropped significantly in the last 11 games despite being about equally inefficient. That seems to have really helped my team though, now that I look at it: Record in Harden's 25 games at SG: 16-9 Record in Harden's 11 games at SF: 8-3 So minimizing Harden's offensive role has actually helped my team win. Is that really what we want? A real life MVP candidate and one of the best offensive players in the league has to be minimized in D5 in order to help his team win games. Harden is obviously broken in the sim. What should we do about it? 7 ppg seems like a decent amount to be honest; his assists are what they are based on Walt's research; can't expect the rebounds to increase with lopez and aldridge there and he is only shooting 1.5% less than in real life. So, I guess what is your problem? Based off of this, he is pretty damn close to real life outside of assists and 3 pt %. Really, it seems the problem is in the 3 pt % if anything. What would you suggest goes down in his ratings then to compensate ? |
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Post by Alex English on Mar 1, 2017 4:38:02 GMT
Uhh so is Ian just modifying primacy ratings by request now? Maybe? Maybe not? I think it had a lot to do with the fact that my team has serious problems. He warned me that primacy is weird as shit and unreliable before making the changes, and he was right. It doesn't do what you want it to do. I guess you can shut a player down well enough, because Harden's role was definitely diminished, but the side effects were very unpredictable. What I wanted to happen was to minimize Harden and his shitty 70 FG and 74 3PT and maximize Afflalo and his really good 86 FG and 87 3PT. The very first game, it worked perfectly. Afflalo went off for 32 points and 6 rebounds. The very next game he went right back to being a smaller part of the offense and he hasn't had another game like that since. The game just kind of ignored Afflalo's maxed out primacy. The longer term results have been that Harden's decreased role has been distributed to LaMarcus Aldridge most of all and a little bit of John Wall too, I think. You can't manipulate primacy and reliably get results you want, because the sim is way too unpredictable, so I get why Ian probably doesn't want to mess with it. The game will ultimately do what it wants to do anyway. |
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Post by Alex English on Mar 1, 2017 5:13:47 GMT
7 ppg seems like a decent amount to be honest; his assists are what they are based on Walt's research; can't expect the rebounds to increase with lopez and aldridge there and he is only shooting 1.5% less than in real life. So, I guess what is your problem? Based off of this, he is pretty damn close to real life outside of assists and 3 pt %. Really, it seems the problem is in the 3 pt % if anything. What would you suggest goes down in his ratings then to compensate ? Well what we should do about it kind of gets to a bigger problem with Harden, and that's how he scores. In real life Harden is a very efficient offensive player despite average shooting percentages because of how good he is at getting to the free throw line. He averages 11 free throw attempts per game and he shoots 85% from the line. 32% of his points this season have been scored at the line. Compared to D5 it's very different. Here he only averages 4.2 free throw attempts per game and only 18% of his points come at the free throw line. That makes him a very inefficient player since free throws are the most efficient way to score points, and Harden doesn't do that here. The problem is we can't really make Harden get more free throws in D5, there are no ratings that make this an option. So I don't really know what the right answer is. I just know it's clear Harden sucks big fat dick in D5 right now. I think that he needs 5-8 point boosts in his FG and 3PT ratings. This can come out of his Dunk rating. Also probably his Handle rating. I think a high Pass rating and lower Handle rating should lead to more turnovers, and we all know Harden loves turnovers. That is another area of his game that's very underrepresented in D5. I think the answer on how to address Harden and Westbrook's problems is subjective. We're limited by the options NBA Live 06 gives us and we still don't really understand how to get the best and most realistic results from any specific rating changes. |
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Post by Kevin Hollis on Mar 1, 2017 5:39:36 GMT
7 ppg seems like a decent amount to be honest; his assists are what they are based on Walt's research; can't expect the rebounds to increase with lopez and aldridge there and he is only shooting 1.5% less than in real life. So, I guess what is your problem? Based off of this, he is pretty damn close to real life outside of assists and 3 pt %. Really, it seems the problem is in the 3 pt % if anything. What would you suggest goes down in his ratings then to compensate ? Well what we should do about it kind of gets to a bigger problem with Harden, and that's how he scores. In real life Harden is a very efficient offensive player despite average shooting percentages because of how good he is at getting to the free throw line. He averages 11 free throw attempts per game and he shoots 85% from the line. 32% of his points this season have been scored at the line. Compared to D5 it's very different. Here he only averages 4.2 free throw attempts per game and only 18% of his points come at the free throw line. That makes him a very inefficient player since free throws are the most efficient way to score points, and Harden doesn't do that here. The problem is we can't really make Harden get more free throws in D5, there are no ratings that make this an option. So I don't really know what the right answer is. I just know it's clear Harden sucks big fat dick in D5 right now. I think that he needs 5-8 point boosts in his FG and 3PT ratings. This can come out of his Dunk rating. Also probably his Handle rating. I think a high Pass rating and lower Handle rating should lead to more turnovers, and we all know Harden loves turnovers. That is another area of his game that's very underrepresented in D5. I think the answer on how to address Harden and Westbrook's problems is subjective. We're limited by the options NBA Live 06 gives us and we still don't really understand how to get the best and most realistic results from any specific rating changes. have you tried palying him at the pg? you never know. |
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Post by Charles Barkley on Mar 1, 2017 15:04:35 GMT
So what Ian is trying to accomplish is get the same output of Harden in game as he has in real life. I believe I have touched on this topic greatly as to why this is the worst idea in the world, next to Per 36 stats. If you want Harden to perform as he does in RL, you need his ratings to be 100% accurate, first and foremost. Making them inaccurate is counter-intuitive to this whole process. Next, you need to put the RL Rockets around Alex's Nuggets, something I doubt Alex wants to do. Third, you need to make it so that Alex's Nuggets, as the RL Rockets, play the proper RL opponent equivalent in the sim, and, the correct schedule. Then, you need to make each player play the same amount of minutes in sim as they do IRL, and have it line up perfectly. And finally, once you have done all of those things, you sim. And if the sim comes out wrong, it is likely because NBA Live 06 has some weird ass settings for the META of the game. This is the most absurd thing in the world. You are increasing player's attributes when they shouldn't be increased, because no one voted on them to be that way, and then simming games that count for everyone's records with inflated numbers. All because Alex's Nuggets aren't performing like they should be. Just change Harden's Primacy rating, quit fucking with his shooting. The game doesn't acknowledge ball movement like there is in today's game; it is based on an iso-heavy league. Dirk freaking broke the game because he was big and shoots 3s. Alex, if you want your team to perform well with HArden replicating RL, either trade for the RL Rockets, or do things to change your team's primacy rating. I wish we could inflate my player's attributes because they aren't playing well. I agree with most of your points. I'm not sure if some of you are projecting opinions on to me that I don't hold, but I don't want a mirror image of real life Harden on my team, nor do I want his ratings to be messed with. I do want Harden to play well. He's one of the best player in the NBA, has like a 50/50 shot of winning the MVP along with Westbrook, and his Rockets are tearing it up. The entire point of the stockwatch section is to have the good players in the NBA be the good players in D5, and currently one of the best in the NBA is trash in D5, so something is wrong. Harden was great last season, and he was great early this season until... his FG and 3PT ratings were decreased from 84 and 85 to 70 and 74 respectively. I have a big long PM thread with Ian where I've asked him to try things, including adjusting primacy, and it's at the point where the root cause is becoming quite clear. Primacy does very little in fact, at least in the long run. I asked Ian to max out Afflalo's primacy because he has crazy high FG and 3PT ratings and it worked for one game (that time he score 33 points), then the game kind of ignored the primacy ratings and went back to doing whatever it does. So you just admitted to asking Ian to change player's rating on your team that you know makes him shoot more, because he has high ratings in FG and 3PT? What are Walt and I supposed to do? Not change a player's attributes even though they need to be changed? What if we just decide that Dirk is actually a good player, and just decide not to decrease him? I have more of a problem with this in that IT WAS DONE FOR ACTUAL GAMES. GAMES THAT COUNT!!!!!!!!!!!! |
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Post by Charles Barkley on Mar 1, 2017 15:11:34 GMT
No one's players perform 100% to real life.
Alex, have you tried playing Harden at the PG? His assists won't be there but his shots likely will be. From what I have noticed, the players taking the most shots, play PG.
And sometimes, primacy is just what it is. For some reason, Shaun Livingston and Damien Inglis ball out when they actually play.
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Post by Ian Noble on Mar 1, 2017 15:46:05 GMT
After identifying it was Westbrook/Harden's FG/3PT ratings that needed fixing I bumped them up to 80/80 because it's damaging to the league to have them being 3rd/4th options on their teams.
We can learn from this now it's happened and future rating changes will take into account that FG/3PT ratings also affect usage rate and a balance is required, I'd like to do some more experiments and share it with the Ratings Committee so we can find how to approach it best.
We have to work with the tools we have until I find the time to develop something even more realistic - I'd rather devote time to working on that longer term solution, my own sim engine, than finding another sim engine, made by someone else, and then adapting everything I've done to fit it, when the one we have has worked since 2007 and has never presented this issue before until we incorrectly edited those two ratings with the best intentions in mind.
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Kevin Hollis
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Post by Kevin Hollis on Mar 1, 2017 16:21:39 GMT
After identifying it was Westbrook/Harden's FG/3PT ratings that needed fixing I bumped them up to 80/80 because it's damaging to the league to have them being 3rd/4th options on their teams. We can learn from this now it's happened and future rating changes will take into account that FG/3PT ratings also affect usage rate and a balance is required, I'd like to do some more experiments and share it with the Ratings Committee so we can find how to approach it best. We have to work with the tools we have until I find the time to develop something even more realistic - I'd rather devote time to working on that longer term solution, my own sim engine, than finding another sim engine, made by someone else, and then adapting everything I've done to fit it, when the one we have has worked since 2007 and has never presented this issue before until we incorrectly edited those two ratings with the best intentions in mind. I just don't understand the Harden issue. He has 4 all-stars on his team with him. Westbrook it is easy to see, but not Harden if we are strictly talking about options. What stats did you reduce to keep their rating the same? Also, I have a feeling if Harden were on say, the Spurs, this random rating increase would not be happening. I am surprised more people aren't upset by the blatant favoritism that is frequently shown. Literally, this would be me saying that Cousins isn't functioning correctly because he isn't scoring 28 ppg and that his 3 pt % is off from his real life percentages. Do you see where literally everyone in the league can make this same argument/complaint? |
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Post by Ian Noble on Mar 1, 2017 17:00:59 GMT
 I would've done the same for any other players. |
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Post by Deleted on Mar 1, 2017 17:34:08 GMT
I would've done the same for any other players. I think the concern is you might have to start doing this for other players to maintain non favortism. We all have a player or two that performs unrealistic in the sim even though their ratings are logically crafted. |
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Post by Alex English on Mar 1, 2017 19:46:20 GMT
So you just admitted to asking Ian to change player's rating on your team that you know makes him shoot more, because he has high ratings in FG and 3PT? I'm a little confused. Is this a 'gotcha' moment or something? It's primacy, not a player's actual attributes. Primacy adjusts naturally throughout the season as NBA Live does whatever weird stuff it does. It's not some fixed thing where changing it is corruption. Changing it is probably even pointless in the long run because NBA Live changes it all on it's own. I lowered Harden and raised Afflalo but because Harden is a 95 and Afflalo is a 77 the game will naturally raise Harden again and lower Afflalo over time. Also yea, of course I want the better shooters on my team to shoot more often. What's wrong with that? I did not ask Ian to change Harden's FG or 3PT ratings, and I have mixed feelings that it happened. I think it's probably the only way to fix what's going on, but I'm worried it's kind of like a Pandora's box that now means behind the scenes rating tweaks become more common, or even necessary. But at the same time, I don't even know if that's bad, if ratings changes results in better sim results. What are Walt and I supposed to do? Not change a player's attributes even though they need to be changed? I think the point of all this is that we're still learning what it means for an individual attribute to require a rating change. What was the method used that determined Harden and Westbrook both needed a 70 FG rating? Walt just kind of made it up using his best estimation. It was objective in the sense that he used NBA Savant shot charts to see shooting percentages broken down by area on the court, but how any percentage meant a 70 FG rating vs a 60 vs an 80 was all just a guess. Also, nobody voted on a specific FG rating for Harden, that's not how it works. It would be extremely tedious, or even impossible for everyone to vote on all the individual rating changes. The league votes on overall ratings, and then Walt breaks things down to try and best distribute the points over all their attributes. To a lesser extent you, or myself, or Billy, give our thoughts or suggestions. It's mostly just Walt doing what he does though, and it's clear we're all learning how to most effectively make those changes. On the point of Harden's overall, I'm very against him getting a boost to his FG and 3PT that results in a higher overall. The league voted on a 95, so Harden gets a 95. I even think he deserves higher than that, but tough luck, he gets a 95. So any change to his FG and 3PT ratings need to be compensated for with a decrease elsewhere to keep his overall rating unchanged. |
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Post by Kevin Hollis on Mar 1, 2017 19:55:37 GMT
I would've done the same for any other players. I think the concern is you might have to start doing this for other players to maintain non favortism. We all have a player or two that performs unrealistic in the sim even though their ratings are logically crafted. Exaaaaaaaaaactly. |
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Post by Kevin Hollis on Mar 1, 2017 19:56:36 GMT
I would've done the same for any other players. At the end of they day, it's your decision; however, can you let us know what stats you decreased to net his rating to the same as it was before? |
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Post by Chris Mullin on Mar 1, 2017 21:21:36 GMT
Just read through this whole situation and I'm a pretty disappointed by what I read. I agree with just about everything Charles and Kevin have posted. I really don't think it's fair to inflate Harden's and Westbrook's FG & 3PT ratings because they aren't playing exactly like their real life selves. Both of their FG, 3PT, & FT%'s are pretty close to what they are in real life. Won't inflating their shooting ratings then make them more unrealistic?
The matter is an usage issue but if you're going to put those 2 guys on teams with other really good players there's a chance they aren't going to get as many shots. In my opinion it's up to the GM to figure out how to get their players more shots, not have their shooting ratings inflated. Adjust your lineups, change player positions, or if you have to make a trade to get the desired outcome you're hoping for. Putting a team together and having success in D5 shouldn't be just about getting players with high overall ratings. It's up to the GM to put together a well rounded team that will win games and if the team isn't performing how the GM would like then it should be up to the GM to figure out a solution to the issue. (This not an attack on James & Alex because from what I've read neither were in favor of this)
LeBron James has FG & 3PT ratings of 70 & 62 yet he still has a high usage rate on my team. LeBron routinely takes the most shots on my team despite having shooting ratings of 70 & 62. I feel this is a product of how my team is put together more so than LeBron's shooting ratings. LeBron in the sim is almost a full 3 assists below what he averages in real life. Can his passing rating please be increased to more accurately mirror what he's doing this season in real life? LBJ is the best player in the NBA and to not have him performing like his real life counterpart is bad for the league, right?
Steph Curry had an unbelievable MVP season last year in real life but he wasn't close to replicating in the sim what he did in real life. His FG & 3PT %'s in the sim were below what he was shooting IRL but nothing was done to fix that situation. At least nothing that I am aware of. We are playing a video game, we're never going to have 100% mirror images of real life counterparts no matter how hard we try because there are way to many other factors to account for as Charles pointed out earlier.
I think the RC does a great job of accurately making players and adjusting their ratings. In my opinion to just inflate shooting ratings because a couple of players aren't exactly mirroring their real life counterparts is worse for the league than those guys not performing exactly how they are IRL.
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Kevin Hollis
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Post by Kevin Hollis on Mar 1, 2017 21:42:30 GMT
Just read through this whole situation and I'm a pretty disappointed by what I read. I agree with just about everything Charles and Kevin have posted. I really don't think it's fair to inflate Harden's and Westbrook's FG & 3PT ratings because they aren't playing exactly like their real life selves. Both of their FG, 3PT, & FT%'s are pretty close to what they are in real life. Won't inflating their shooting ratings then make them more unrealistic? The matter is an usage issue but if you're going to put those 2 guys on teams with other really good players there's a chance they aren't going to get as many shots. In my opinion it's up to the GM to figure out how to get their players more shots, not have their shooting ratings inflated. Adjust your lineups, change player positions, or if you have to make a trade to get the desired outcome you're hoping for. Putting a team together and having success in D5 shouldn't be just about getting players with high overall ratings. It's up to the GM to put together a well rounded team that will win games and if the team isn't performing how the GM would like then it should be up to the GM to figure out a solution to the issue. (This not an attack on James & Alex because from what I've read neither were in favor of this) LeBron James has FG & 3PT ratings of 70 & 62 yet he still has a high usage rate on my team. LeBron routinely takes the most shots on my team despite having shooting ratings of 70 & 62. I feel this is a product of how my team is put together more so than LeBron's shooting ratings. LeBron in the sim is almost a full 3 assists below what he averages in real life. Can his passing rating please be increased to more accurately mirror what he's doing this season in real life? LBJ is the best player in the NBA and to not have him performing like his real life counterpart is bad for the league, right? Steph Curry had an unbelievable MVP season last year in real life but he wasn't close to replicating in the sim what he did in real life. His FG & 3PT %'s in the sim were below what he was shooting IRL but nothing was done to fix that situation. At least nothing that I am aware of. We are playing a video game, we're never going to have 100% mirror images of real life counterparts no matter how hard we try because there are way to many other factors to account for as Charles pointed out earlier. I think the RC does a great job of accurately making players and adjusting their ratings. In my opinion to just inflate shooting ratings because a couple of players aren't exactly mirroring their real life counterparts is worse for the league than those guys not performing exactly how they are IRL. Well said. I agree 100% with it being the gms responsibility to adjust. |
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Post by Deleted on Mar 1, 2017 21:51:22 GMT
I feel like the entire ratings committee has now come out against this behind the scenes adjustment. Maybe should've brought this up in committee before changing things for real games. I wonder if anyone will the miss playoffs or jump someone in the lottery because of those rating changes?
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Post by Jeremiah Hill on Mar 1, 2017 21:55:36 GMT
Just read through this whole situation and I'm a pretty disappointed by what I read. I agree with just about everything Charles and Kevin have posted. I really don't think it's fair to inflate Harden's and Westbrook's FG & 3PT ratings because they aren't playing exactly like their real life selves. Both of their FG, 3PT, & FT%'s are pretty close to what they are in real life. Won't inflating their shooting ratings then make them more unrealistic? The matter is an usage issue but if you're going to put those 2 guys on teams with other really good players there's a chance they aren't going to get as many shots. In my opinion it's up to the GM to figure out how to get their players more shots, not have their shooting ratings inflated. Adjust your lineups, change player positions, or if you have to make a trade to get the desired outcome you're hoping for. Putting a team together and having success in D5 shouldn't be just about getting players with high overall ratings. It's up to the GM to put together a well rounded team that will win games and if the team isn't performing how the GM would like then it should be up to the GM to figure out a solution to the issue. (This not an attack on James & Alex because from what I've read neither were in favor of this) LeBron James has FG & 3PT ratings of 70 & 62 yet he still has a high usage rate on my team. LeBron routinely takes the most shots on my team despite having shooting ratings of 70 & 62. I feel this is a product of how my team is put together more so than LeBron's shooting ratings. LeBron in the sim is almost a full 3 assists below what he averages in real life. Can his passing rating please be increased to more accurately mirror what he's doing this season in real life? LBJ is the best player in the NBA and to not have him performing like his real life counterpart is bad for the league, right? Steph Curry had an unbelievable MVP season last year in real life but he wasn't close to replicating in the sim what he did in real life. His FG & 3PT %'s in the sim were below what he was shooting IRL but nothing was done to fix that situation. At least nothing that I am aware of. We are playing a video game, we're never going to have 100% mirror images of real life counterparts no matter how hard we try because there are way to many other factors to account for as Charles pointed out earlier. I think the RC does a great job of accurately making players and adjusting their ratings. In my opinion to just inflate shooting ratings because a couple of players aren't exactly mirroring their real life counterparts is worse for the league than those guys not performing exactly how they are IRL. --------------------------------------------- I've got to be honest, I thought Harden was shooting WAY better than he actually is. 34% from 3 is actually pretty poor. His FG is low cause he takes 10 3's per game. I'd go with what Chuck said and try him at the point cause Harden's passing IS actually rated really good. |
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Post by James Kay on Mar 1, 2017 21:56:15 GMT
I expect no one to respond to me but I’ve been putting a lot of thought into this.
As Chris just noted, and I will reiterate, I was neither aware nor in favor of a tinkering of Westbrook’s stats (or Harden’s for that matter). But I will say this in regard to everyone yelling that we shouldn’t be adjusting players to make sure their D5 stats replicate their IRL stats:
The impression that I’ve gotten from Ian and Walt and just reading this thread is that we don’t really know what the individual ratings do – we have Aware, FG, Inside scoring, 3PT, and Dunking.
So we have essentially 5 categories that the RC is charged with balancing to try and represent the real-life skills of a player. The actual individual talents of players are not so simple. So even if we were aware of exactly what “FG” represented (is it shooting, scoring in general, number of shots?) or how “Inside scoring” affected guards and bigs differently (does it? is it post scoring? Is it layups?), we would still struggle to perfectly represent players simply by manipulating 5 numbers.
And this is where I’m going to defend the effort to make players play at least similar to their stats in real-life: We don’t get to watch these games, and we don’t get to know how the individual ratings are interacting. All we can see are the statistics. All we can see are the box scores. Their D5 statistical performance is the only measure we have to compare to their real-life stats to see if the RC was able to somehow magically shape and craft these 5 numbers into an accurate representation of the IRL player. So while there are other factors including team fit, if Harden is putting up like 21 points on 41% when he’s actually capable of 29 points on 60+ TS%, then maybe it’s an indication that the D5 Harden was constructed improperly. Again, the box scores are the only measure we have of how successful or unsuccessful the RC is in creating these players, so a player performing well well below or well well above their actual proven capabilities is a suggestion that maybe something is wrong under the hood.
So yes, we shouldn’t be trying to get every D5 player to match their exact IRL stats. Team fit matters. But we have to also acknowledge the possibility that the players are not properly constructed and the only way we have of determining that is through the box score.
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Post by Deleted on Mar 1, 2017 21:59:21 GMT
No one cares about changing the ratings from here on forward, James. Of course we want to be as realistic as possible  The problem is instead of adjusting players in PMs, a thread should've been posted, whether in general discussion or the rating committee subforum, and new stock watches should've happened. We have a process for changing ratings and it's not "pm ian to get your guys ratings changed" Ian easily could've just done test simulations to test his theory instead of changing the ratings of the players in the official sim outside of the normal process, and secretly! |
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Post by James Kay on Mar 1, 2017 22:05:31 GMT
No one cares about changing the ratings from here on forward, James. Of course we want to be as realistic as possible The problem is instead of adjusting players in PMs, a thread should've been posted, whether in general discussion or the rating committee subforum, and new stock watches should've happened. We have a process for changing ratings and it's not "pm ian to get your guys ratings changed" Ian easily could've just done test simulations to test his theory instead of changing the ratings of the players in the official sim outside of the normal process, and secretly! Lol, I’m aware. Pretty sure I was the first person that quote Alex on that and pointed that out. And he explained it was just primacy (which is not as significant and does its own thing, but still). Don’t think anyone has PM’d Ian to get actual ratings changed. But that’s also not the point of most of the posts I’ve seen so far – a ton have addressed that we shouldn’t be trying to change ratings to match real life and that it’s solely on the GM to “work it out.” |
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Post by Alex English on Mar 1, 2017 22:35:46 GMT
I've got to be honest, I thought Harden was shooting WAY better than he actually is. 34% from 3 is actually pretty poor. His FG is low cause he takes 10 3's per game. I'd go with what Chuck said and try him at the point cause Harden's passing IS actually rated really good. Yes Harden is actually an efficient offensive player who just shoots an ungodly number of threes, because that's the Daryl Morey philosophy. He shoots 52% inside the three point line because his mid range game is decent and he's extremely good at attacking the rim and getting layups. That 52% is better than tons of guys you would think of as better shooters than Harden including Klay Thompson, Isaiah Thomas, Kyrie Irving and even post players like Blake Griffin and Anthony Davis. That's what brings down his overall FG%. That's also a hard balance of shots to represent in D5. I'm not in favour of playing around with Harden's ratings in games that count, but I'm definitely in favour of playing with his ratings so we can learn how to accurately represent him, and Westbrook, and whoever else. No matter how much we may want to think it, we don't actually know the exact affect we're having when we set individual ratings, it's all just kind of an estimate. |
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Post by Ian Noble on Mar 1, 2017 22:48:18 GMT
I've reset Harden and Westbrook's FG/3PT ratings. I'm also going to move this thread to the General Discussion for now since it's clogging up this section which is meant for results discussion.
I've just finished about 2 hours of testing on Westbrook which I'll copy/paste from the Ratings Committee thread we've got going into here. In addition to what I'll paste across this big insight hit me: in none of the test seasons I just simulated did Westbrook perform as badly as he has done this season so far in D5, which is confusing, and another good reason to reset him and Harden's FG/3PT ratings back to where they were.
Here's what I've posted in the RC thread:
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Post by Jeremiah Hill on Mar 1, 2017 23:04:15 GMT
I've got to be honest, I thought Harden was shooting WAY better than he actually is. 34% from 3 is actually pretty poor. His FG is low cause he takes 10 3's per game. I'd go with what Chuck said and try him at the point cause Harden's passing IS actually rated really good. Yes Harden is actually an efficient offensive player who just shoots an ungodly number of threes, because that's the Daryl Morey philosophy. He shoots 52% inside the three point line because his mid range game is decent and he's extremely good at attacking the rim and getting layups. That 52% is better than tons of guys you would think of as better shooters than Harden including Klay Thompson, Isaiah Thomas, Kyrie Irving and even post players like Blake Griffin and Anthony Davis. That's what brings down his overall FG%. That's also a hard balance of shots to represent in D5. I'm not in favour of playing around with Harden's ratings in games that count, but I'm definitely in favour of playing with his ratings so we can learn how to accurately represent him, and Westbrook, and whoever else. No matter how much we may want to think it, we don't actually know the exact affect we're having when we set individual ratings, it's all just kind of an estimate. Yeah, but his primary strength (considering he's an average 3pt shooter at best) is getting to the FT line which probably accounts for 8-10 ppg in real life. There is absolutely 0 way that we can account for that in the sim. I don't know what stat effects getting to the line. |
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Post by Alex English on Mar 1, 2017 23:15:48 GMT
Yeah, but his primary strength (considering he's an average 3pt shooter at best) is getting to the FT line which probably accounts for 8-10 ppg in real life. There is absolutely 0 way that we can account for that in the sim. I don't know what stat effects getting to the line. I've said this exact thing in this thread too. I agree, Harden's biggest strength can't be brought into D5 effectively because there are no ratings for getting to the line. So what do we do about it? There is no obvious answer. |
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Deleted
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Nov 27, 2024 15:37:14 GMT
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Post by Deleted on Mar 1, 2017 23:30:37 GMT
Yeah, but his primary strength (considering he's an average 3pt shooter at best) is getting to the FT line which probably accounts for 8-10 ppg in real life. There is absolutely 0 way that we can account for that in the sim. I don't know what stat effects getting to the line. I've said this exact thing in this thread too. I agree, Harden's biggest strength can't be brought into D5 effectively because there are no ratings for getting to the line. So what do we do about it? There is no obvious answer. Pay Ian so he can quit his job and build a website and sim engine for us full time! Ian you should start a Kickstarter |
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Post by Hanamichi Sakuragi on Mar 2, 2017 0:01:00 GMT
I would've done the same for any other players. Then, let me ask for adjustments for these guys: Steven Adams - How come he became the #1 option for Miami?? And scoring 19.5 points and even attempting three-point shots... His per 36 in real life is not even close to what he is currently producing in D5. Rudy Gobert - 14.0 per 36 points in real life, 19.5 points in D5. Draymond Green - There is no way he could be the top scorer in the Toronto roster. Those are just some of a lot of players who have some issues about their primacy/usage.. And now that you have decided that fixing it without going through the Stockwatch is just fine, that give us the right to ask for other players... And with your post that I quoted, I think there is no problem if we point to the players of other teams.. |
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