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Post by Deleted on Jan 21, 2015 18:28:13 GMT
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Post by Hanamichi Sakuragi on Jan 21, 2015 23:22:54 GMT
I still believe that my suggestion is the fairest one.. hehe 1. Decrease the hard cap for that team by the same percentage of the amount he went over with next season. Ex. let us say the hard cap is at 200%. A team went on to go over that cap. Maybe 15% over. So next season, His hard cap will be 185%. 2. And if he decides to stay above the HC, then we take his MLE next season. (The #1 still applies) 3. Then if he still decides to stay above the HC, then we take a 1st round pick. (#1 and #2 still applies) How about the others out there.. speak up please
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Jan 21, 2015 23:33:24 GMT
I still believe that my suggestion is the fairest one.. hehe 1. Decrease the hard cap for that team by the same percentage of the amount he went over with next season. Ex. let us say the hard cap is at 200%. A team went on to go over that cap. Maybe 15% over. So next season, His hard cap will be 185%. 2. And if he decides to stay above the HC, then we take his MLE next season. (The #1 still applies) 3. Then if he still decides to stay above the HC, then we take a 1st round pick. (#1 and #2 still applies) How about the others out there.. speak up please I think it should be a given that if you're over a hard cap that is over 200% of the salary cap, you shouldn't get the MLE during the offseason.
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Post by Alex English on Jan 21, 2015 23:33:27 GMT
I still believe that my suggestion is the fairest one.. hehe 1. Decrease the hard cap for that team by the same percentage of the amount he went over with next season. Ex. let us say the hard cap is at 200%. A team went on to go over that cap. Maybe 15% over. So next season, His hard cap will be 185%. 2. And if he decides to stay above the HC, then we take his MLE next season. (The #1 still applies) 3. Then if he still decides to stay above the HC, then we take a 1st round pick. (#1 and #2 still applies) How about the others out there.. speak up please This is much too complicated to keep track of. But I think taking away the MLE like you brought up is the only penalty that makes sense. If a higher cap is eventually put into place then I think we just set it at whatever number is deemed reasonable and teams that exceed that amount lose their MLE. So they keep their draft picks, but can now only sign minimum contract players in free agency. Ian hasn't said anything about this yet though, and he is the one with the decision making power.
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Post by Hanamichi Sakuragi on Jan 21, 2015 23:42:08 GMT
I still believe that my suggestion is the fairest one.. hehe 1. Decrease the hard cap for that team by the same percentage of the amount he went over with next season. Ex. let us say the hard cap is at 200%. A team went on to go over that cap. Maybe 15% over. So next season, His hard cap will be 185%. 2. And if he decides to stay above the HC, then we take his MLE next season. (The #1 still applies) 3. Then if he still decides to stay above the HC, then we take a 1st round pick. (#1 and #2 still applies) How about the others out there.. speak up please This is much too complicated to keep track of. But I think taking away the MLE like you brought up is the only penalty that makes sense. If a higher cap is eventually put into place then I think we just set it at whatever number is deemed reasonable and teams that exceed that amount lose their MLE. So they keep their draft picks, but can now only sign minimum contract players in free agency. Ian hasn't said anything about this yet though, and he is the one with the decision making power. I disagree with the first part.. They are only a few teams who actually will exceeds the hard cap if it will be implemented.. If we have the HC right now and we have it at 200%, only Miami will exceed it.
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Post by Jay Z on Jan 22, 2015 12:03:31 GMT
Id be for a hard cap, and now seems like a perfect time to try to implement one
We should time our introduction of the hard cap with the 2016-17 season where the the soft cap may rise to something like $80 - $90 from the TV deal. Instead of a percentage, I think our hard cap should follow the leagues "apron" ($4 mill over the luxury tax line, were the nba starts kicking in punishments). Just for example, this years apron was at about $81 mill. i think the best thing about adopting the apron as our hard cap is that the apron is the closest thing the nba has to a hard cap currently.
In tandem with a hard cap that's 1 1/2 years out, i think we throw in a selective amnesty clause for a few teams.
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Larry Bird
Indiana Pacers
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Post by Larry Bird on Jan 22, 2015 12:40:35 GMT
Then we'd have to set a cap floor as well.
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Post by Alex English on Jan 22, 2015 13:58:57 GMT
Id be for a hard cap, and now seems like a perfect time to try to implement one We should time our introduction of the hard cap with the 2016-17 season where the the soft cap may rise to something like $80 - $90 from the TV deal. Instead of a percentage, I think our hard cap should follow the leagues "apron" ($4 mill over the luxury tax line, were the nba starts kicking in punishments). Just for example, this years apron was at about $81 mill. i think the best thing about adopting the apron as our hard cap is that the apron is the closest thing the nba has to a hard cap currently. In tandem with a hard cap that's 1 1/2 years out, i think we throw in a selective amnesty clause for a few teams. Depending on what happens to the luxury tax and apron when the cap jumps, this seems like a really low number. There are currently 7 teams with a salary above 80,000,000. Then looking at my salary, after re-signing Paul George and Kyrie Irving, my payroll will probably be higher than $140,000,000 in the 2016-17 season.
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Post by Jay Z on Jan 23, 2015 15:53:48 GMT
I'd like to see this all come closer to what we'd see in the NBA, to inject some more realism into this aspect of D5. Just running the luxury tax numbers on D5 Miami, they'd be looking to pay the league right now something like $200 million in taxes, on top of the $130 they owe they're players. Its insane. But its the best way to build a team currently, to have these crazy contracts sitting on your bench like that, im going to do my best to emulate it if nothing changes.
Nothing i want to propose is meant to punish teams like denver or miami. A hard cap that wont come into play till the 2016-17 season where we have the one large bump in cap (80 mill soft cap, something like 100 mill hard cap following the apron). Plus the amnesty provision or 2 for the teams that will need it (with special rules tied to them to prevent abuse).
For you alex i imagine that's you cutting Brook Lopez in 2016-17 for 22 mill savings with an amnesty. That, in line with the expected bump up in cap, should leave plenty of room to keep Irving and George together with Harden and Anderson, while managing to bring your cap looking like what we'd actually be able to find on a very well put together team.
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Post by Hanamichi Sakuragi on Jan 25, 2015 0:33:10 GMT
how about the others?
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Post by Ian Noble on Feb 8, 2015 0:05:47 GMT
I agree there should be a hard cap. I like how we encounter more and more technicalities with the system we have as time goes on. I guess we started with the bare bones of the NBA's system and as time passes we're adopting more and more of the NBA's intricate rules because they just make sense, it's just that it took us time to get around to addressing them. Also it's probably a case of having closed one door highlights the need to close others. In these situations I feel like it's my job to maintain a balance between realism and keeping the league practical to administrate rather than just imposing my will. What should the hard cap be set at? To me it seems fitting to be 200% (currently $126,130,000), but that seriously penalizes teams who have been operating without expecting a hard cap to be introduced. Maybe the hard cap should be introduced a few years from now (right when all my players expire! great timing!)? What should the penalties be for exceeding the hard cap? I need to have a good long read of what exactly happens in the NBA but it seems logical that you should lose your MLE and also lose the ability to re-sign even Bird Rights players? The most important thing is the implications of whatever rules we adopt and how the league will operate afterwards. Should there be cap holds when re-signing Bird Rights players? I think there should be. Again I need to have a good read of the NBA's official policy.
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Post by Shaquille O'Neal on Feb 8, 2015 17:42:27 GMT
I agree with this. but i think we need to do this in like 2 years from now.
Just reading the title makes my heart ache.
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Post by Deleted on Feb 8, 2015 17:45:21 GMT
I agree with this. but i think we need to do this in like 2 years from now. Just reading the title makes my heart ache. Yeah, I don't think anyone wants to this happen anytime soon. 2017 would be a good goal, and I think people over the hard cap then could be grandfathered in for an additional year.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Feb 8, 2015 18:19:57 GMT
The NBA does not wait and do this when it is best for the league. Just like how we did our ratings and just as we continue to adjust or create rules or additions. Its not like the league has an agreement with the players union and everything is agreed upon and dont change until that deal runs out. The Hard Cap will change the league and hurt some gms. Overall it will make the league better. I for one think its fair to add this rule as early as after the playoffs. We all live and die by our choices! Sometimes are decisions are made eorse by laws or rules and sometimes we are on the better side of the outcome.
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Post by Brian Scalabrine on Feb 8, 2015 19:05:33 GMT
I agree to grandfather in the teams already over
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Post by Deleted on Feb 8, 2015 19:25:29 GMT
What happens whben a team loses its GM(its going to happen). Does the New GM get penalized? We have to work this into it somehow. And if we are so into a cap, we need to add in that teams should get first shot at resigning its players. If the league wants to get into all this then we need to add in Restricted and Unrestricted FAs. Im all for making the league better. But if we are going to put in the time to worry about a cap..lets worry about our teams and its players first.
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Post by Ian Noble on Feb 22, 2015 12:47:54 GMT
I'm going to move ahead on some of these issues now. What should the Hard Cap be set at? 200% of the salary cap (currently $126,130,000). How will the Hard Cap be introduced? Over the course of 4 years, beginning at 230% of the salary cap.
So if the salary cap does not change, this will be the level of the hard cap going forward: 2014/15 - $189,195,000 (230% of salary cap) 2015/16 - $138,743,000 (220% of salary cap) 2016/17 - $132,436,500 (210% of salary cap) 2017/18 - $126,130,000 (200% of salary cap)
Obviously the salary cap will change, but those percentages will remain the same and will be used to calculate the official hard cap each season. What should the penalties be for exceeding the hard cap? Teams are not allowed to sign free agents for any more than the league minimum.
Bird Rights players cannot be re-signed (if their cap-holds exceed the hard cap, see below).
The team loses their MLE. Should there be cap holds when re-signing Bird Rights players? Cap holds will be set at 150% of a re-signed player's previous year's salary.
Previously it was the case that no money was added to the team's salaries until after the off season, meaning that teams could re-sign Bird Rights players and continue along signing as many free agents as they wanted whilst under the cap.
In the NBA, if you re-sign a player with Bird Rights, a cap hold is applied to your team's salaries before you can go on signing other free agents. The cap hold varies between 150% and 190% of the player's previous year's salary (depending upon whether they're on a rookie contract or not, and a few other complexities we wont be dealing with).
I think it would be too complicated to differentiate between all the different cap holds, so I'm going to set the cap hold for all re-signing Bird Rights players at 150% of their previous season's contract. When Bird Rights players are re-signed during our Off Season Free Agency period, this 150% amount will be displayed on the Rosters database so that everyone has a good idea of exactly what the team's cap situtation looks like. When will cap holds be introduced? This upcoming off season.
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Post by Ian Noble on Feb 22, 2015 12:50:22 GMT
I'm going to leave this open for discussion before I write it into the official Rules.
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Magic Johnson
Former Lakers GM
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Post by Magic Johnson on Feb 22, 2015 13:32:41 GMT
That's way too high right now there is no point of having a hard cap if teams can still crack over 130 million plus. Either you have to over inflate the contracts (in free agency i.e. see Draymond Green is worth really 10 million, but to really give him what he deserves and penalize hard cap abusers you make him sign for 15 million a year) or have to bring hard cap down and just change it accordingly to when the NBA changes it's salary cap.
I agree with this season being grandfathered and maybe even next season but after that the penalties needs to be harsh otherwise there is no point for an hard cap and having the way NBA has right now is fine as is.
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Post by Hanamichi Sakuragi on Feb 22, 2015 14:52:12 GMT
I think 4 years is long. Maybe 2 years should be enough.
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Post by Brian Scalabrine on Feb 22, 2015 15:08:52 GMT
I would agree with magic, I think something like 225%, 200% 175%, 150% would be better especially since the cap is going to be 90 million so with 150% the teams over it right now like the nuggets will have plenty of time to adjust as well as be able to keep their teams since 150% of 90 is still 135.
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Post by Brian Scalabrine on Feb 22, 2015 15:11:46 GMT
Love all the other ideas though
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Post by Deleted on Feb 22, 2015 15:40:35 GMT
You guys are giving gms over the cap time to get under the cap? Did you give gms time to trade players who's ratings we're going to be changed when we first really got into the rating changes? When a rule is put into place I think it should affect teams right away. Just like it did IRL. Why Grandfather anything. GMs knew what they were doing and that there was a chance of a hard cap. Its been talked about way long enough. And still no roster changes were not made.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Feb 22, 2015 15:41:10 GMT
Yep, 200% just seems too high to me as well.
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Post by Ian Noble on Feb 22, 2015 22:36:18 GMT
My post ended up being a massive flow of thought, so I've left all that below and summarised here: Cap holds should be based on the salary a player is signed for, not for the salary they previously had. The hard cap would be best at something like 175% ($113,517,000) and not be introduced for a few years.
Okay this post is just a gigantic flow of thought onto a post, but it's helped me work through it in my mind...
I suppose 200% is a bit too much.
There's currently only three teams in the league who are over 150% ($94,597,500), so maybe that's actually a good indicator of where the hard cap should be?
In that case, the next four years would look like:
2014/15 - $113,517,000 (180% of salary cap) 2015/16 - $107,210,500 (170% of salary cap) 2016/17 - $100,904,000 (160% of salary cap) 2017/18 - $94,597,500 (150% of salary cap)
I'm going to digress a bit whilst I think this through...
Looking in more depth, over a 150% proposed cap currently we have the Nuggets first of all, and they would not have the cap space to re-sign Paul George this off season, which is unfair on them because Alex English has been operating without knowledge of any hard cap introduction. In fact I would say Alex has driven his team salaries higher because operating below the salary cap is pretty much impossible for him for the foreseeable future. That's not his fault and he shouldn't be penalised for it.
The Clippers have three bird rights players they've kept for 3 years coming up: DeAndre Jordan, Carmelo Anthony and Tony Parker. It's impossible for him to re-sign those guys with $38,177,760 cap space.
The Heat are like the Nuggets, they clearly see no day arriving when they'll have cap space so they're content to operate well away from it. They'll be above the Hard Cap in two seasons time when Lebron and Wade expire.
I suppose those three GMs would have planned accordingly if they had known a hard cap would be introduced (and because they did not plan accordinaly, no hard cap will be introduced any time soon that will penalize them).
Denver and Miami definitely operated with disregard to the salary cap since they were so far over, but I don't feel that's true for Coach K's Clippers.
Looking ahead for teams like my own as well; in five years time I'll have a bunch of rookies I drafted who need re-signing. Let's assume I get absurdly lucky and six of them are max-contract-guys. That's $120,000,000 in the hands of six players by today's rates? However since they're coming off their rookie contracts though, only 150% of their rookie salary's final year will come off my books, I will be able to re-sign them all, but thereafter my salaries will be ridiculously high.
For the reason I just wrote in the paragraph above this one: Cap-holds should be based on a percentage of how much a player is re-signed for, not for much a player made the year before they were re-signed.
I still feel like a hard cap of $94,597,500 is perhaps a little too small, even though it's a lot of money. If you've got a genuine dynasty of players you've had on your team for many, many years you should be able to re-sign them.
175% is $113,517,000 - I think that would be a more realistic number.
End posting of thought process.
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Post by Alex English on Feb 22, 2015 22:40:56 GMT
150% is too low. Just look at the current highest salaries. The cap right now is $63,065,000. 150% of that is $94,597,500. The Heat's payroll right now 131 million, more than 35 million over what the level of the hard cap would be.
Looking at implementing this, the Heat already have 141 million on the books for next year. Add in the MLE and any other potential minor moves and the absolute minimum we can set the Hard cap to next year is 150 million. That is more than 220% of the current cap.
The cap will go up though. Say it's at 80 million. 150% of that is 120 million. There are teams set to exceed that under the current structure. With the major salary increases that will come from such a big bump in the cap, 120 mil could affect a large number of teams and be too restrictive.
200% is better, as it's 160 million. But it is still 30 million above the Heat's current salary, and he's way ahead of everyone else. 160 mil might not actually be any kind of deterrent.
The best number could be 175%. With an 80 million cap that's a 140 million hard cap. Following the big boost in the cap I think it's a number far enough away to not impact most teams, but low enough that some GMs can't run wild. It basically means the Miami Heat have to stand pat for the next 3 to 4 years, then the rest of the league will catch up to him.
For implementing it slow enough I think we could go: 2015-16: 225% 2016-17: 200% 2017-18: 175%
The 225% level for this offseason is high enough that it won't penalize GMs for breaking rules that didn't previously exist, and 3 seasons should be long enough for GMs to react.
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Post by Ian Noble on Feb 22, 2015 22:44:39 GMT
I like to think you arrived at your 175% figure without having read my post, Alex English! edit: I'm fine with that countdown also. Keeping the hard cap as <a thing that's going to happen>, that I can write in the Rules, would probably help to remind me it's coming and alert GMs who bother to read the rules!
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Post by Alex English on Feb 22, 2015 22:49:15 GMT
Ian posted his big response while I was writing mine and I agree with a lot of what he said. I never would have traded for Josh Smith if we had a hard cap. Then having to re-sign Paul George, plus my MLE, I figure I need at most 25 million. With the 114 million I have committed to next year already I need at least 140 million to not be penalized. As I talked about in the other post Miami needs even more than that.
We can't go lower than 175%, and I think that number only works with the fact that we're getting a huge bump in the cap for the 2016-17 season.
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Post by Shaquille O'Neal on Feb 22, 2015 22:57:14 GMT
i vote for one amnesty per team this offseason! more fun! more players to sign!
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Post by Alex English on Feb 22, 2015 23:00:11 GMT
i vote for one amnesty per team this offseason! more fun! more players to sign! I definitely agree. It's a great idea because the NBA has actually done this in real life and it helps the highest payroll teams (mainly the Heat, Clippers and myself) get out from under the gun.
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