Big Man Ratings

[Andrei Kirilenko]

Hey everyone,

So I've been spending some time thinking about the ratings for big men in the league. There is a definite need to adjust a lot of the ratings, as some of them seem arbitrary or out of date. I have compiled my own list of what I think are fair judgments on players who potentially need a rating increase. Hopefully it will at least get the conversation started so we can be on our way to a better rating system.

[Andrei Kirilenko]

Here is the list from my personal database I keep if you want to copy and paste. I haven't included EVERY big man, but most of the relevant ones.

Centers Rating
Amare Stoudemire 93
Dwight Howard 92
Al Horford 86
Andrew Bynum 86
Al Jefferson 84
Joakim Noah 83
Marc Gasol 83
Emeka Okafor 82
Tyson Chandler 82
Andrew Bogut 82
DeMarcus Cousins 82
Nene 82
Andrea Bargnani 81
Roy Hibbert 81
Kendrick Perkins 80
Marcus Camby 80
Serge Ibaka 80
Greg Monroe 79
DeAndre Jordan 79
Samuel Dalembert 79
Anderson Varejao 79
Brook Lopez 78
Bismack Biyombo 78
Channing Frye 78
Spencer Hawes 78
Marcin Gortat 78
Chris Kaman 77
JaVale McGee 77
Robin Lopez 76
Andris Biedrins 76
Marreese Speights 76
Byron Mullins 75
Jermaine O'Neal 75
Enes Kanter 74
Omer Asik 72
Tiago Splitter 68




Power Forwards Rating
Tim Duncan 91
Kevin Garnett 90
Dirk Nowitzki 90
Pau Gasol 89
Kevin Love 89
Blake Griffin 88
Chris Bosh 88
LaMarcus Aldridge 86
Josh Smith 85
Carlos Boozer 85
Lamar Odom 85
Elton Brand 84
Paul Millsap 84
Rashard Lewis 83
Zach Randolph 83
David Lee 82
Antwan Jamison 82
David West 82
Derrick Williams 81
Kenneth Faried 80
Boris Diaw 80
Ryan Anderson 80
Luis Scola 79
Kenyon Martin 79
Ersan Ilyasova 79
JJ Hickson 79
Tyrus Thomas 79
Glen Davis 79
Michael Beasley 79
Al Harrington 79
Chris Andersen 78
Carl Landry 78
Taj Gibson 78
Troy Murphy 77
Jason Maxiell 77
Anthony Randolph 77
Charlie Villanueva 77
Markieff Morris 77
Andray Blatche 77
Kris Humphries 77
Udonis Haslem 76
Ed Davis 76
Amir Johnson 76
Chuck Hayes 76
Drew Gooden 76
Hakim Warrick 75
Jason Smith 75
Josh McRoberts 75
Jason Thompson 75
Nikola Pekovic 73
Tyler Hansbrough 72

[Ian Noble]

I would say a definite decrease for Biedrins, he's rated higher than Kanter.

[Alex English]

Kendrick Perkins is a definite decrease for sure. I'd also put DeMarcus Cousins down for potential increase.

[Walt Frazier]

Since I've brought it up in his own thread, Love HAS TO at least get a rebounding increase.

[Jackie Moon]

I hate this list because all my big men get a decrease or potential decrease lol

[Danny Longley]

I think my guy Kevin Seraphin should at least be getting notice. probably not 77 worthy yet, but he's been posting decent numbers since about last year's all-star break.

[Lucas Lutkus]

Dec 4, 2012 0:09:18 GMT Jackie Moon said:

I hate this list because all my big men get a decrease or potential decrease lol

mine too hahaha

[Otis Smith]

I never noticed that Amare is the most highest rated big in this league, that needs to be fixed ASAP he needs to go down to the low 80s.

Also Brook Lopez should not be rated the same as Frye.

[Walt Frazier]

Dec 4, 2012 5:17:46 GMT Otis Smith said:

I never noticed that Amare is the most highest rated big in this league, that needs to be fixed ASAP he needs to go down to the low 80s.

Also Brook Lopez should not be rated the same as Frye.

Amar'e's rating has already been decided upon...you guys should check out this post - dynasty5ive.proboards.com/index.cgi?board=stockwatch&action=display&thread=980

No way he should drop to the low 80's btw. Mid-high 80's is right, and that thread has him at an 87, so I'm pretty much OK with that.

[Danny Longley]

Dirk should be getting a boost if anything if Kevin Love is going up, at least for status' sake. 14 Years, 12 All-NBA Teams, 11 All-Star Appearances, 1 Season MVP, 1 Finals MVP, 1 Ring and still no respect?

This is my main problem with Love getting a boost to 90s: The Mavs with Dirk are a 50-win threat year-in, year out. Without him, they weren't even a .500 team. The best that Love's teams have put up is last year's 26-40. that's just under .400 win%. Putting him at 90+ is pretty much saying that he's better than Dirk. and while overall, Love does have more statistical strengths, do they translate?

Frankly, as good as Love is, it feels like his numbers are just bloated because he's pretty much options 1 through 5 on the floor.

To refrain from straying from my point, I'm just going to put up one last argument, cause I've pretty much said everything I've wanted to say about Love in the other thread.

Dumbing things down, a higher rating in the right places will generally mean that the team holding that player will have a better chance at winning. But if Love isn't producing those wins IRL, why should he be given the capability to do so (or rather, more so) in the sims?

[Deleted]

Dirk is a great player. One of the best ever from overseas. Thing is we need to and are suppose to be giving rating increases and decrease from current attributes. What has Dirk done in the last two seasons? In my opinion he is right below that 90 mark somewhere. And dirk deserves all his awards, etc but KLove is the future. Dirk finally won his ring and unlike Duncan's Spurs...will prob never win it again with him. We just need to come up with a system for ratings. Based on current production, talent around that player and maybe a rating ceiling for non nba starters. Unless of course a player is playing like a starter with those kind of minutes. Otherwise the ratings in this league will never be fair or accurate. And for players like dirk,Duncan, etc that are one of the greatest of all time and still NBA starting material- they should be among the highest rated in the game. When minutes or production drop drastically...do does their rating.

[Danny Longley]

In the last two seasons, Dirk won a ring, struggled due to fatigue early in the season from playing in EuroBasket, and got back on track later in 2nd half of the season.

Unlike Duncan, Dirk's been playing 30+MPG all his career. He hasn't had the luxury of having two all-stars in their prime playing with him. Since his sophomore season, he hasn't had a season under 20 PPG. For having 50-Win seasons for so long with less talent than what Duncan's had to work with, he should be at 92-93 if only Live's ratings could define his offense so.

As for Love, I'm not denying that he's good, or he's the future, or whatever. But in the now, his team's records so far is 52-114 (That's the last two seasons - the seasons that he's averaged 20+, and current). And seeing as he's the leader of those teams, that should be put into consideration.

[Walt Frazier]

And Love's teams have been SO much worse overall than Dirk's. I mean that as in the talent around him, as the record is obvious and has already been pointed out.

Rubio is a good player, but just got there last year, and didn't play a full year, and was a rookie as well when he was playing.

Who else has Kevin Love gotten to play with?

Dirk has had very good players the last few years, Jason Terry is WAY better than anything the Wolves have had. Jason Kidd is WAAAAAY better than anything the Wolves have had. Shawn Marion is WAY better than anything the Wolves have had. Tyson Chandler is WAY better than anything the Wolves have had.

I could go on for a bit, but you get the point.

The problem I have with Dallas' argument is that sometimes, really good players get punished for being on a bad team.

I think we should watch out for players putting up 20+ points on bad teams who are shooting like 40%. But, there are players on bad teams who are really good players. Sometimes, there are really bad organizations who don't build well around a player, or just in general, and that can lead to these arguments of "if he's so good, why is the team so bad?"

Well, sometimes, the talent on the team is really, REALLY bad. It happens.

[Danny Longley]

Focus on the championship year, sure. Forget that for most, it was Kidd's carcass and not Kidd, that Jet could be Ray Allen one night and Roger Mason the next, that before that key year - Marion didn't even know what his role was supposed to be. The supposed Robin in Caron Butler had barely played 60 games for the franchise.

I'll give you Chandler, but for most, you get where I'm going with this.

Sure, that's probably still beter than what Love has had, but it's alarming how his teams have never even cracked 30.If you count last year, it would have translated to around 32, but that's not exactly something to be proud of.

I mean, even Bosh had taken his teams to 40 - sure, it was in a weaker east, but that would have translated to around low-mid 30s in the west.

As good as Love is, statistically, it's just a very alarming case.

[Deleted]

If you had to choose between dirk and love right now who would u build around Dallas?

[Danny Longley]

To be frank, I don't know how that question would even relate. Dirk is 9 years older, so it would be stupid to say that I'd prefer to build around him at this point.

If say, they were stripped of age, team and external factors, I would still pick Dirk. In Dirk, there's just truly transcendent scoring, enough that'd overlook Love's clear advantage on the boards - I mean, it's not Dirk who's copying Kobe's one-legged fade-away.

Also, Prior to this season, Dirk has missed a total of 45 games. Love's missed 43 in his 4 years (again, not including this one). As good as Love is on the boards, i'd rather look for a defensive 5 to pair with Dirk to mask his flaws.

But again, I fail to see how this is relevant.

[Walt Frazier]

You are the one who brought up the fact that Dirk has won a Championship, and Love hasn't done well winning games, in general.

So, yes, I talked about Dirk's championship roster.

Also, I love Kidd's game RIGHT NOW, so I'm not sure he was a carcass 2 years ago. He's still a great player, just a different player than he was, and no longer elite, but he brings a lot to the table.

Again, I don't like to see great players on bad teams get punished because the team around them is horrible.

Dirk is definitely a great scorer. His best years have him scoring 25-26ppg, 9-10 rpg, shooting around 48-50% FG, and anywhere from 37-42% from 3.

Love is still developing, but his two best years have him scoring 20-26ppg, 13-15 rpg, shooting around 45-47%, and 37-42% from 3.

I see a lot of similarities there. I can get behind the idea of holding off on arbitrarily raising Love's overall rating, but his rebounding needs to be 1st or a very close 2nd in the league, and his 3's need boosted at least a few points, maybe more, as well (as I've detailed in his thread).

Dirk and Love should be damn similar from 3 (Right now Dirk is 90, Love is 82), Love should be a far superior rebounder (this one is generally OK, except Love needs a boost...but their relationship to each other is right), and Dirk can have a small advantage in FG (Right now Dirk is at 92 and Love is at 77... problem there IMO).

[Shaquille O'Neal]

how about ian mahinmi?

[Danny Longley]

But see, the thing is that even with the consistent roster turnover in Dallas, the Mavs have consistently put up 50+. Consistent feature, Dirk. Just talking about this brings me back to the days that our center rotation was Damp, Diop and Mbenga.

Anyway, as close as percentages go, The question I'm going to have to put up in response is that does Love face remotely as many double teams as Dirk? - Legitimately curious because I'm sure I don't watch as much Love as you Walt, or any true Wolves fans out there - hence why I'm questioning his stats.

As far as the three goes, I'm kind of thinking that the 40% year was anomalous, though it would also be safe to argue that the previous season's less time for recovery affected his shot, but there's little to suggest otherwise either.

Now, for FG, I must vehemently disagree. Dirk takes and makes shots from inside the arc that Love probably has never even thought of. I don't think people are nearly as afraid when or if Love takes the high post. I wouldn't mind if Love were stepped up to 80, but to say that he's close to Dirk there is pushing it IMO.

*Disclaimer for exaggeration at some points, I'm as big a Dirk fan as say, Magic is a Kobe fan as it seems.

[Danny Longley]

And, to prevent this thread from becoming completely Dirk Vs Love:

Centers Rating

Amare Stoudemire 93 - Discussed earlier
Al Jefferson 84 - 87
Emeka Okafor 82 - 78
Tyson Chandler 82 - 85
Marcus Camby 80 - Discussed
Serge Ibaka 80 - FG needs boosting, but still not convinced on pure defense.
Anderson Varejao 79 - 83
Brook Lopez 78 - 82
Bismack Biyombo 78 - 76
Marcin Gortat 78 - Discussed earlier
Andris Biedrins 76 - 70
Omer Asik 72 - Own Thread
Tiago Splitter 68 - Own Thread




Power Forwards Rating
Tim Duncan 91 - Discussed earlier
Kevin Garnett 90 - Discussed earlier
Blake Griffin 88 - 85 (Frankly, overrated for me. doesn't display enough to merit being up this high.)
Carlos Boozer 85 - 80
Lamar Odom 85 - Discussed earlier
Elton Brand 84 - Discussed earlier
Rashard Lewis 83 - Discussed earlier
Zach Randolph 83 - 87
Derrick Williams 81 - He should be down, but a certain number, I can't give at this moment.
Boris Diaw 80 - 77
Ryan Anderson 80 - Own Thread
Kenyon Martin 79 - I believe this was discussed?
Tyrus Thomas 79 - Discussed earlier
Chris Andersen 78 - Discussed earlier
Troy Murphy 77 - 75
Anthony Randolph 77 - There's game, but how long do we wait?
Charlie Villanueva 77 - 75
Hakim Warrick 75 - 72
Nikola Pekovic 73 - Own Thread
Tyler Hansbrough 72 - 76

Just my quick opinions, running out of time and have to leave in a while, so I may have missed some people.

[Alex English]

Dec 11, 2012 2:47:57 GMT Danny Longley said:

Al Jefferson 84 - 87

Put me down for one of these. Al Jefferson has averaged 19 and 10 in his career as a starter and he's averaging 17 and 11 this year with Kanter and Favors breathing down his neck. I think he is deserving of an 87.

[Danny Longley]

Forgot one more name, Zaza Pachulia's been buried behind Atlanta's deep frontcourt, but whenever he has minutes, he's producing. Not exactly a great skillset, but he's capable of 7 and 7, and should at least be a 76, where most grind-it-out bigs seem to be.

[Walt Frazier]

I'd be cool with Zaza around a 76 also. He's a legit player.

[Walt Frazier]

Can I just say, Duncan is making our new rating of him look pretty false! Dude is amazing this year!

[Danny Longley]

Dec 19, 2012 17:30:29 GMT Walt Frazier said:

Can I just say, Duncan is making our new rating of him look pretty false! Dude is amazing this year!

As much respect as I have for the man, probably won't last. He's seeing 30 MPG so far, Pop's probably going to cut that at some point. Also, probably not as significant, but 10% jump in FT that is probably going to fall at some point. I think 87 is fine for his production, just not 90 level at all for me anymore.

[Walt Frazier]

Dec 19, 2012 18:06:40 GMT Danny Longley said:

Dec 19, 2012 17:30:29 GMT Walt Frazier said:

Can I just say, Duncan is making our new rating of him look pretty false! Dude is amazing this year!

As much respect as I have for the man, probably won't last. He's seeing 30 MPG so far, Pop's probably going to cut that at some point. Also, probably not as significant, but 10% jump in FT that is probably going to fall at some point. I think 87 is fine for his production, just not 90 level at all for me anymore.

Well...

#1 - I didn't say we should reverse the rating change, just said that right now he's looking amazing.

#2 - Only playing 2 more mpg than the last couple years...so I don't see why he'd get cut back all that much.

17.6ppg / 10.4rpg / 2.5apg / 2.5bpg / 0.9spg

Still hovering at 50% FG, yes the FT% is almost certainly going to drop, though I wouldn't put it past Duncan to have figured something out and be pretty good at it.

Just talking about it, if nothing else his Fatigue should have been lowered some so he's not dominating a game for too long, but he's still a great player.

Plus I think he got dropped to 86, just think it maybe should have been 88-ish but we'll see. Not a huge deal, I'm sure he'll still be a great player in the game.

[Alex English]

Dec 19, 2012 17:30:29 GMT Walt Frazier said:

Can I just say, Duncan is making our new rating of him look pretty false! Dude is amazing this year!

The guy looks like five years younger this year. I think Melo is looking great too. His decrease to 89 may not be justified any more.

[Deleted]

Dec 19, 2012 21:30:20 GMT Alex English said:

Dec 19, 2012 17:30:29 GMT Walt Frazier said:

Can I just say, Duncan is making our new rating of him look pretty false! Dude is amazing this year!

The guy looks like five years younger this year. I think Melo is looking great too. His decrease to 89 may not be justified any more.

Duh!!!

[Danny Longley]

Anyone else think Kosta Koufos shouldn't be a 69? He's looking pretty decent for Denver, maybe around 74-75 around all the other decent backup bigs