Off Season 2020 and Covid-19

[Ian Noble]

Off Season 2020 and Covid-19

It's one week until the end of the regular season here at D5, after which the Playoffs will begin.

Looking ahead to the Off Season - our D5 Rookie Draft start date, Off Season Free Agency start date, the announcement of next season's salary cap amount etc. are all timed to coincide roughly with the real NBA's schedule, but due to coronavirus all these dates are currently uncertain.

Therefore I think it's sensible to also postpone our Rookie Draft, Off Season Free Agency etc. so that we are operating with the correct Salary Cap, we have the real-life Rookie Draft as a rough guide for where players are taken etc.

Here is a rough break-down of how things will play out:

May 17th

End of Regular Season
Expiring Players Trade Deadline - any players on expiring contracts cannot be traded after this date.

May 18th

Start of Playoffs
Start of Draft Lottery announcements

End of Playoffs

Trading - teams may begin trading again as soon as they drop out of the playoffs (excludes expiring players).

Start of Rookie Draft

Draft will begin as soon as the real NBA's draft happens.

2020/21 Salary Cap Announced by NBA

D5 will adopt the same salary cap. Hard cap will be 150% of this amount.
Off Season Free Agency Start Date - although likely tied to whatever the real NBA's off season start date will be, this could be brought forward or back of the real NBA's date once announced.
Team Options - GMs may begin picking up Team Options
Bird Rights - GMs may begin claiming Bird Rights
Player Options - D5 will wait on the Salary Cap before making PO decisions. GMs may begin making the case for Opt-In or Opt-Out scenarios on their players to the committee.

Start of Off Season Free Agency

Players whose Team Options have not been picked up by their team will enter free agency.
Players who have declined to pick up their Player Options will enter free agency.
Players will lose Bird Rights status if they are not claimed by their GM.
Teams relinquish the rights to unsigned 2nd Rounders from previous year's draft.

If the Draft or OSFA is postponed later than November, which seems unlikely, we can discuss the best course of action when we come to that point.

[Ian Noble]

Certainly open to you guys input on any of these points if you have any.

[George Gervin]

For Player Options, does it make sense to make them prior to the cap announcement? For example, I’d hope Roberts and the NBAPA learned their lesson from 2016 that cap smoothing would be the way to go here on a decrease to help level off the impact, but if she and CP3 decide “fuck it, we want it all at once”, I think that will impact players decisions to opt out. I think discussions can be had for decisions made on obvious players (e.g. Faried, Millsap, Batum, etc.), but the bigger calls — particularly the LeBron/Kawhi/Russ/Kyrie/Kemba quintet— probably need the insight of the final League cap call before making their decisions final

[Andrei Kirilenko]

One thing I think we should legitimately consider due to the season shutdown is either bringing all players back from injury in D5 who play on real-life playoff teams, or postponing the D5 playoffs until the real-life playoffs start.

Recent reports say that Adam Silver wants to restart the league right into the playoffs, but there is not yet a timeline for restarting. With the current lockdown of most states in the US, it seems to me like August/September would be the very earliest that they could start something like this.

We might find ourselves in a situation where guys we have listed out in D5 (Irving, Bazley, Durant, Lamb, Powell, Winslow, Powell, Allen) are available to play in the real-life playoffs but do not participate in the D5 playoffs. This seems wrong to me as our entire injury system in D5 is built to mimic the players' real life injury status. There are some serious names on the list (Irving and Durant) who could have a huge swing on the real-life or D5 playoffs if they come back, so I really believe we owe it to ourselves to either bring them back or postpone the D5 playoffs so that we can get it right.

I know I'm going to come across as just trying to get my own player back, so just want to say that I feel like the fairest approach is to wait until the real-life playoffs start in order to start the D5 playoffs. There's no reason to rush into D5 playoffs with these major questions looming, especially since our playoffs go quicker than the real-life playoffs anyway.

[Shaquille O'Neal]

Suggestion: Lets do a 1 season fantasy draft while waiting for the league to comeback, no salaries and we can trade players that we want with the approval of trade committee.

[Larry Bird]

If we’re waiting until real life playoffs start, are we opening trading regulations for teams who have qualified for the playoffs?

[Ian Noble]

May 10, 2020 11:38:06 GMT George Gervin said:

For Player Options, does it make sense to make them prior to the cap announcement? For example, I’d hope Roberts and the NBAPA learned their lesson from 2016 that cap smoothing would be the way to go here on a decrease to help level off the impact, but if she and CP3 decide “fuck it, we want it all at once”, I think that will impact players decisions to opt out. I think discussions can be had for decisions made on obvious players (e.g. Faried, Millsap, Batum, etc.), but the bigger calls — particularly the LeBron/Kawhi/Russ/Kyrie/Kemba quintet— probably need the insight of the final League cap call before making their decisions final

Agree with you here, GG. Player options should wait until the official cap announcement. Thanks for the input!

edit: The Salary Cap also plays a role in team decisions regarding TOs and Bird Rights, but these can be started as normal with the option for GMs to undo their decisions (once the cap is announced) made available.

[Ian Noble]

May 10, 2020 21:14:36 GMT Andrei Kirilenko said:

One thing I think we should legitimately consider due to the season shutdown is either bringing all players back from injury in D5 who play on real-life playoff teams, or postponing the D5 playoffs until the real-life playoffs start.

Recent reports say that Adam Silver wants to restart the league right into the playoffs, but there is not yet a timeline for restarting. With the current lockdown of most states in the US, it seems to me like August/September would be the very earliest that they could start something like this.

We might find ourselves in a situation where guys we have listed out in D5 (Irving, Bazley, Durant, Lamb, Powell, Winslow, Powell, Allen) are available to play in the real-life playoffs but do not participate in the D5 playoffs. This seems wrong to me as our entire injury system in D5 is built to mimic the players' real life injury status. There are some serious names on the list (Irving and Durant) who could have a huge swing on the real-life or D5 playoffs if they come back, so I really believe we owe it to ourselves to either bring them back or postpone the D5 playoffs so that we can get it right.

I know I'm going to come across as just trying to get my own player back, so just want to say that I feel like the fairest approach is to wait until the real-life playoffs start in order to start the D5 playoffs. There's no reason to rush into D5 playoffs with these major questions looming, especially since our playoffs go quicker than the real-life playoffs anyway.

I disagree with this, I think we should continue as normal with the Playoffs.

Adam Silver is saying they want the NBA to launch straight into the Playoffs, the latest I heard was this would be done in Orlando or Las Vegas where all the teams could congregate: essentially the NBA is trying to get the Playoffs done and return to their usual annual schedule when the season restarts next November. There's no knowing what Adam Silver's position would be if things were delayed until October/November time.

Whilst it's true that teams currently burdened with injuries are at a disadvantage if we start now - that also means teams without injuries will be at a disadvantage if we start later in the year. In the real NBA, it's not really fair that the 2nd Seed Raptors would face off against the 7th Seed Nets, with Durant and Kyrie back in the lineup, in the First Round of the Playoffs. Likewise it's not fair on 1st Seed D5 Sacramento to face off against 8th Seed D5 Golden State in a few months time with Durant and Klay Thompson back in the lineup.

Last but not least - this is the progression from regular season to playoffs we've all been expecting anyway. It's not exactly a let-down for teams burdened with injuries, none of those GMs were expecting to have their star players fully healed.

[Andrei Kirilenko]

I disagree, we are playing a guessing game with injuries right now when we don't have to. What advantages do we have of going straight into the playoffs if we are waiting on the real NBA for the draft and offseason anyway? I know it sucks to say that D5 should essentially shut down until the fall starting in about 1 week, but isn't that the responsible thing to do? I will personally be pretty bummed if Kyrie plays in real life but I didn't get him in D5, or if there is an opposite scenario, like say for instance Simmons actually isn't healed from injury and doesn't play in real life but he played in D5.

Our injury system is designed to use hindsight, but we're now in a situation where D5 is ahead of the real NBA. Don't we either need to wait for the NBA to catch up, or re-think our injury rules for the short term?

It probably won't make a difference in the end, but why are we speculating on injuries when we could just wait and get the actual correct answers?

[George Gervin]

May 11, 2020 15:32:32 GMT Andrei Kirilenko said:

I disagree, we are playing a guessing game with injuries right now when we don't have to. What advantages do we have of going straight into the playoffs if we are waiting on the real NBA for the draft and offseason anyway? I know it sucks to say that D5 should essentially shut down until the fall starting in about 1 week, but isn't that the responsible thing to do? I will personally be pretty bummed if Kyrie plays in real life but I didn't get him in D5, or if there is an opposite scenario, like say for instance Simmons actually isn't healed from injury and doesn't play in real life but he played in D5.

Our injury system is designed to use hindsight, but we're now in a situation where D5 is ahead of the real NBA. Don't we either need to wait for the NBA to catch up, or re-think our injury rules for the short term?

It probably won't make a difference in the end, but why are we speculating on injuries when we could just wait and get the actual correct answers?

Regarding Kyrie and KD specifically, the Nets have been clear that KD was progressing in his rehab, but that he isn’t returning this season if it resumes, and Kyrie is a September at best return. Folks close to KD — and the Mediadel Head Meister himself, Woj— have been consistent he’s not coming back. Additionally, Silver has intimated that Labor Day is when they need to have the season wrapped up in order to start the next season in the 2020 calendar year. Whether there’s also an NFL avoidance factor at play here too is irrelevant to the injury discussion, but it’s clear Silver does not want this to drag on forever and it’s doubtful the NBA would wait till August to make the call on the season. For someone like Kyrie who, at best, would return in September, it seems highly unlikely the Nets would throw him into the playoff pressure cooker as his first return action after more than 8 months on the shelf.

[Andrei Kirilenko]

If we don't want to wait until the fall to have the D5 playoffs, then I think we need to follow one of the following options:

1. We assume the NBA season is never going to resume, in which case any player injured in D5 as of season shutdown date (middle of March) should still be injured in D5.

2. We assume the NBA season will resume in the fall, so all players are assumed to be healthy unless they are known to be out past the fall.



I honestly don't see how we chalk it up any other way than the 2 options above. For instance, we have currently brought Ben Simmons back from injury, but on what basis? We said "if the season were to resume today then we think he would be able to play". At the time we brought him back, we didn't know what the season resuming would look like, but now we have some sense that the earliest it could resume would be in the fall, and it would go straight into the playoffs. Don't we owe it to realism to update our assessment? We should be asking the question "would Ben Simmons be able to play in the playoffs this fall?" rather than "is Ben Simmons able to play today?". It's fine if we want to jump ahead of the NBA and go ahead and sim our playoffs, but we still need to use the same assumptions that we have been using for years as regards to injuries.

[Alex English]

I think we should be playing out the season with injuries as is. I think our goal of realism doesn't need to go so far as to mirror the effects of a global pandemic.

Had the NBA playoffs run on schedule we know that guys like KD, Klay, Kyrie, etc. would not have played. That's good enough for me to keep them out. If we brought them back then what about DeMarcus Cousins? He still has an 88 rating since he's been too unhealthy to give him a proper stock watch thread. If we don't play him then now we're picking and choosing. which opens up a whole other set of potential problems. Returning injured players is just not a good option imo.

I don't think waiting on the NBA is good either though. We don't know what will happen. The league planning to return to the playoffs may not happen. We could see a second wave as soon as things open up again. The NBA may end up determining the "bubble city" idea won't work and not go ahead with it. I don't think there's a good enough argument to throw ourselves into limbo along with the NBA when we don't have to.

Nothing is perfect, but I think playing the season out is the best option.

[James Kay]

Agreed with Josh here, as far as those being the two options we should follow, though I would say that it's actually because of the guess-work we'd be inviting. I don't think it's fair to bring back certain players and keep others out while we have no idea what would actually happen if the season resumed today. Injury updates aren't reliable in this situation.

Overall, I'd prefer to simply wait until the NBA makes a decision. I think its fine that we simmed out the rest of the regular season because it gave us something to pay attention to, and as the NBA will likely resume right into playoffs, didn't distort any of our results.

Going into our post-season without any solid updates as to player injuries will just totally divorce us from reality IMO.

Something to entertain us in the interim would be great though. Not sure what.

[James Kay]

May 11, 2020 18:51:57 GMT Alex English said:

Had the NBA playoffs run on schedule we know that guys like KD, Klay, Kyrie, etc. would not have played. That's good enough for me to keep them out. If we brought them back then what about DeMarcus Cousins? He still has an 88 rating since he's been too unhealthy to give him a proper stock watch thread. If we don't play him then now we're picking and choosing. which opens up a whole other set of potential problems. Returning injured players is just not a good option imo.

I just don't see how we can say "Oh, Simmons would have been back by now." Or, "This player would've been able to play by now, but this other player wouldn't."

I also don't see the harm in just waiting. If the NBA fully cancels the rest of the season, including the playoffs, then we can make a decision from there.

[Alex English]

May 11, 2020 18:55:17 GMT James Kay said:

I just don't see how we can say "Oh, Simmons would have been back by now." Or, "This player would've been able to play by now, but this other player wouldn't."

I also don't see the harm in just waiting. If the NBA fully cancels the rest of the season, including the playoffs, then we can make a decision from there.

I'm not really going to defend Ben Simmons playing. I'd take that one up with Ian. If it was up to me, I would've left him on the injured list.

Is that the main problem with playing out the season though? One player? To me that's not as a bad as the potential problems of waiting and then seeing guys like KD, Klay and Kyrie play in September and totally screw up our playoffs.

I guess the question should be whether or not we want to mimic the effects of COVID-19 in D5? If we do, we should wait, if we don't we should finish the season as is. I'm definitely on the the side that we should not try and simulate that. The stakes are not that high. We're not creating an alternate basketball universe with real world external effects like pandemics and shit. We're all just playing a game, and I think we should finish playing our game by running the season until the end.

[Steve Nash]

Before I weigh in, which players on playoff teams could have potentially returned if it wasn't for the hiatus?

KAT and Simmons?

If we decided to play out the playoffs, I think we should first collectively decide on these "controversial" returns. I think guys like KD, Kyrie and Klay were not going to return if the pandemic didn't occur. But there are a few guys that were out that could've potentially returned before season end/playoffs, and I think making a list of them and deciding might be a good idea.

[Andrei Kirilenko]

Just to be clear, in the scenario that I am proposing, players who are on non-playoff teams in real life (Klay, KAT, and DMC) would not have an opportunity to return to D5 if the real NBA goes straight into the playoffs, as they would then have been 'out for the season'. So in that regard, we are really only talking about 2 main players- KD and Kyrie. As Gervin pointed out, Woj said today that KD wouldn't play regardless, so maybe we are actually only talking about Kyrie here.

On the opposite end of the spectrum, we are only talking about Simmons, as he has been the only playoff player brought back from injury after the lockdown.

If the season does never return, it seems wrong to me that we brought Simmons back. If it does return this fall (which are current indications), it seems wrong to me that we didn't bring Kyrie back.




As Alex said though, maybe we don't care about any of that as we don't necessarily have to follow what the real NBA does. I do think we need to hash it out a bit though before starting our playoffs here as the inclusion/exclusion of Simmons and Kyrie could change a lot in the East.

[Ian Noble]

May 11, 2020 15:18:09 GMT Ian Noble said:

I disagree with this, I think we should continue as normal with the Playoffs.

Adam Silver is saying they want the NBA to launch straight into the Playoffs, the latest I heard was this would be done in Orlando or Las Vegas where all the teams could congregate: essentially the NBA is trying to get the Playoffs done and return to their usual annual schedule when the season restarts next November. There's no knowing what Adam Silver's position would be if things were delayed until October/November time.

Whilst it's true that teams currently burdened with injuries are at a disadvantage if we start now - that also means teams without injuries will be at a disadvantage if we start later in the year. In the real NBA, it's not really fair that the 2nd Seed Raptors would face off against the 7th Seed Nets, with Durant and Kyrie back in the lineup, in the First Round of the Playoffs. Likewise it's not fair on 1st Seed D5 Sacramento to face off against 8th Seed D5 Golden State in a few months time with Durant and Klay Thompson back in the lineup.

Last but not least - this is the progression from regular season to playoffs we've all been expecting anyway. It's not exactly a let-down for teams burdened with injuries, none of those GMs were expecting to have their star players fully healed.

Sorry guys I'm not seeing enough evidence to go against what I said earlier.

For what it's worth our policy of returning players has been in place for two months now and didn't seem to be much of a problem with anyone before: dynasty5ive.proboards.com/thread/14828/nba-shutdown

Also for what it's worth my team was 17W-3L with Simmons out (0.850 win%) compared to 44W-14L with him in the lineup (0.759 win%), so I am genuinely happy either way, this isn't about a personal bias, it's what I think is most realistic and the best for the league.

[James Kay]

May 11, 2020 19:20:31 GMT Alex English said:

May 11, 2020 18:55:17 GMT James Kay said:

I just don't see how we can say "Oh, Simmons would have been back by now." Or, "This player would've been able to play by now, but this other player wouldn't."

I also don't see the harm in just waiting. If the NBA fully cancels the rest of the season, including the playoffs, then we can make a decision from there.

I'm not really going to defend Ben Simmons playing. I'd take that one up with Ian. If it was up to me, I would've left him on the injured list.

Is that the main problem with playing out the season though? One player? To me that's not as a bad as the potential problems of waiting and then seeing guys like KD, Klay and Kyrie play in September and totally screw up our playoffs.

I guess the question should be whether or not we want to mimic the effects of COVID-19 in D5? If we do, we should wait, if we don't we should finish the season as is. I'm definitely on the the side that we should not try and simulate that. The stakes are not that high. We're not creating an alternate basketball universe with real world external effects like pandemics and shit. We're all just playing a game, and I think we should finish playing our game by running the season until the end.

I really agree with the sentiment of this I just don't think that this really addresses the disparate treatment of injuries that is sure to result. But as you said, maybe it's not that big of a deal.

In terms of playoff teams with players currently on the D5 list, we have:

Hawks - Oubre
Nets - Kyrie
Bulls - Cousins
Dallas - Monk
Warriors - Klay, Durant
Rockets - Roberson
Grizzlies - KAT, Hood, M. Leonard
Kings - Lamb

Though looking at the official reports, we may be missing others:

Bulls - Draymond
Nets - Redick
Hawks - Nurkic (guy hasn't played the whole season yet is somehow averaging 18 and 9 in 31 games.

These three all listed as being out until June 15. www.cbssports.com/nba/injuries/

And what about Brogdon? Week-to-week with a torn hip? We aren't putting him out because the season isn't going.

What about Gobert? Does testing positive for COVID make you injured? lol

We have Simmons back who may or may not be ready. 6 days ago GM Elton Brand "It's hard to speculate. He's been working hard and I know he'd be close or ready."
www.sportingnews.com/us/nba/news/ben-simmons-injury-update-return/1csyx9h1negvb19pk30yl4xd0u

If I had to guess, I'd say that Simmons could play right now.

But where do we stop guessing? That's my point. It's silly to guess when teams are not in the position to give accurate information regarding their players' injuries and readiness.

The only players who we can probably estimate their readiness accurately are KD and Klay who were out for the entire season and Woj is saying KD won't return even if the season resumes. nypost.com/2020/05/10/kevin-durant-not-returning-to-nets-if-nba-resumes-2020-season/

We don't need to tie ourselves to a pandemic but I don't see what's wrong with waiting to get more accurate information regarding injuries.

[Billy King]

I don't really care how we do it (I'm not qualifying for the playoffs/making any noise)

I think everyone above has made a bunch of good points both on James&Josh and Alex's side.

IMO I think the answer is go with both approaches but have the decision made by what the NBA does.

So, I wouldn't be bringing back anyone that doesn't actually end up playing in a game this year. So we can't just be like "well KD would be healthy by now so bring him back", however if the league starts up again in August and KD plays, he should come back for the game#/playoffgame# that he played for.

IMO this takes the best parts of both approaches. Players come back if they play, but don't come back if they don't. Takes all guesswork out of it, while also keeping the league as close to the NBA as possible. (Whats wrong with having a COVID-19 D5 season with weird rules when the real NBA is doing it too?!)

I would say the only time I'd support us really deviating from what  the NBA decides to do is if they decide to just cancel the season (maybe they award a regular season champion?). If they do that, I'd support awarding a regular season champion on the same date that the NBA did, but then continuing because fuck it why not. This is where we would have to make a tough decision on injuries, because we can't follow what happened in the actual NBA. That is when all the above discussion would be more appropriate imo

[Billy King]

Oh I see Ian has already triple-downed on not waiting for the NBA

nevermind. seems silly to me though

[Ian Noble]

I mean it does seem like everyone else chiming in to this thread is in favour of delaying the playoffs until the NBA has their playoffs, I'm not switched off to the idea.

To me it does not seem like the best option to flow straight into our playoffs though, because waiting could create a situation where 1st Seed Sacramento goes up against 8th Seed Golden State with Klay and Durant back in the roster, which is just obscenely unfair to Sacramento.

Maybe the GMs who support my idea are just not replying because they don't feel they need to? Or is there a genuine consensus against it?

[Amare Stoudemire]

Was their a pandemic in the realm of D5?
No
Would LeBron James be traded for Kevin Durant?
No
Would LeBron James be traded twice in one season?
No
Should Ben Simmons be playing now in D5 when I read this artice the other day saying Simmons might be ready should the NBA season resume?
No
www.espn.com/nba/story/_/id/29138686/sixers-gm-ben-simmons-back-close-ready-play-nba-season-resumes
Should hurt players be allowed back to D5 rosters under some very unclear when/if play resumes irl, when we have already kept going with our D5 season?
No
Should we delay the playoffs in D5 this season?
No - We already kept simming the season so it's dumb to stop now!

Clearly these are just my opinions, but I think it's dumb af to try to account for a world-wide pandemic in a semi-role playing fantasy league!
Sure, we try to keep as close to real as possible but c'mon man! I agree with Ian Noble 💯 on this!

[George Gervin]

Per Ian Noble ‘s shoutbox comment re: Woj cap bomb, to put it in perspective for D5:

• Hard cap with no smoothing is $135 MM
• 7 D5 teams would be over the HC line then (DEN, CHI, SAC, POR, HOU, ORL, CLE) and would not only lose all draft picks but not be able to retain any players with Team Options
• As far as available cap for teams under to absorb players, there’d really be just three teams capable of absorbing significant money: MIA, UTA, and LAL. IND could but they also have a lot of players to resign

Assuming no smoothing, here’s the chaos it unleashes for this offseason:

• Charlotte does not have enough cap room to claim BRs on PG-13
• Chicago cannot sign any players for more than the vet minimums, and if Kawhi walks they cannot claim him via BRs
• Cleveland cannot keep Derrick White, Josh Jackson, Rodions Kuroc, and Isaac Bonga due to being over cap (even with Darren Collison’s retirement) and they’re all team options, plus all draft picks are lost for 2020
• Denver can not retain Gary Clark, sign players for more than the vet min, and if Harris walks, they cannot claim a hold
• Golden State can retain Curry via a hold, but after 1st round pick holds are applied (and assuming a Curry return at max), Joe Harris cannot realistically be retained if he receives an offer that’s in excess of $6 MM a year
• Houston cannot sign a player for more than the vet min, and if Kemba opts out, no hold can be applied
• Milwaukee cannot sign Turner for more than $12 MM a year, as they’ll hit the HC ceiling if an offer exceeds that value
• The Magic cannot sign players for more than the vet minimum, and Josh Hart cannot be retained due to no ability to invoke his team option, in addition to loss of draft picks in 2020
• Portland will lose all draft picks and cannot sign players for more than the vet minimum 
• Sacramento has no picks, but if Drummond opts out, they’d have to excise $50 MM from their cap sheet with no money coming back to be able to offer him an extension

So in short...if Roberts and NBAPA want to repeat the 2016 failure of no cap smoothing, the impact is going to be apocalyptic both for the NBA and our offseason. I don’t see how they make the mistake again given the fallout (see Evan Turner and Allen Crabbe contracts...) within the player ranks after that decision, but Roberts has shown to be a bad union head so far

[Jerry West]

May 12, 2020 13:57:13 GMT George Gervin said:

Per Ian Noble ‘s shoutbox comment re: Woj cap bomb, to put it in perspective for D5:

• Hard cap with no smoothing is $135 MM
• 7 D5 teams would be over the HC line then (DEN, CHI, SAC, POR, HOU, ORL, CLE) and would not only lose all draft picks but not be able to retain any players with Team Options
• As far as available cap for teams under to absorb players, there’d really be just three teams capable of absorbing significant money: MIA, UTA, and LAL. IND could but they also have a lot of players to resign

Assuming no smoothing, here’s the chaos it unleashes for this offseason:

• Charlotte does not have enough cap room to claim BRs on PG-13
• Chicago cannot sign any players for more than the vet minimums, and if Kawhi walks they cannot claim him via BRs
• Cleveland cannot keep Derrick White, Josh Jackson, Rodions Kuroc, and Isaac Bonga due to being over cap (even with Darren Collison’s retirement) and they’re all team options, plus all draft picks are lost for 2020
• Denver can not retain Gary Clark, sign players for more than the vet min, and if Harris walks, they cannot claim a hold
• Golden State can retain Curry via a hold, but after 1st round pick holds are applied (and assuming a Curry return at max), Joe Harris cannot realistically be retained if he receives an offer that’s in excess of $6 MM a year
• Houston cannot sign a player for more than the vet min, and if Kemba opts out, no hold can be applied
• Milwaukee cannot sign Turner for more than $12 MM a year, as they’ll hit the HC ceiling if an offer exceeds that value
• The Magic cannot sign players for more than the vet minimum, and Josh Hart cannot be retained due to no ability to invoke his team option, in addition to loss of draft picks in 2020
• Portland will lose all draft picks and cannot sign players for more than the vet minimum 
• Sacramento has no picks, but if Drummond opts out, they’d have to excise $50 MM from their cap sheet with no money coming back to be able to offer him an extension

So in short...if Roberts and NBAPA want to repeat the 2016 failure of no cap smoothing, the impact is going to be apocalyptic both for the NBA and our offseason. I don’t see how they make the mistake again given the fallout (see Evan Turner and Allen Crabbe contracts...) within the player ranks after that decision, but Roberts has shown to be a bad union head so far

I said it once and say it again, in the NBA teams wouldn't losing draft picks over a pandemic, 0 chance. It's a rule we have in place in D5 that does not exist in the NBA and the extreme circunstances should be taken into account. Or are we going to reward even more half the league that decides to tank just because they can't win and don't have fans our boards to keep happy?

[George Gervin]

May 12, 2020 14:05:20 GMT Jerry West said:

May 12, 2020 13:57:13 GMT George Gervin said:

Per Ian Noble ‘s shoutbox comment re: Woj cap bomb, to put it in perspective for D5:

• Hard cap with no smoothing is $135 MM
• 7 D5 teams would be over the HC line then (DEN, CHI, SAC, POR, HOU, ORL, CLE) and would not only lose all draft picks but not be able to retain any players with Team Options
• As far as available cap for teams under to absorb players, there’d really be just three teams capable of absorbing significant money: MIA, UTA, and LAL. IND could but they also have a lot of players to resign

Assuming no smoothing, here’s the chaos it unleashes for this offseason:

• Charlotte does not have enough cap room to claim BRs on PG-13
• Chicago cannot sign any players for more than the vet minimums, and if Kawhi walks they cannot claim him via BRs
• Cleveland cannot keep Derrick White, Josh Jackson, Rodions Kuroc, and Isaac Bonga due to being over cap (even with Darren Collison’s retirement) and they’re all team options, plus all draft picks are lost for 2020
• Denver can not retain Gary Clark, sign players for more than the vet min, and if Harris walks, they cannot claim a hold
• Golden State can retain Curry via a hold, but after 1st round pick holds are applied (and assuming a Curry return at max), Joe Harris cannot realistically be retained if he receives an offer that’s in excess of $6 MM a year
• Houston cannot sign a player for more than the vet min, and if Kemba opts out, no hold can be applied
• Milwaukee cannot sign Turner for more than $12 MM a year, as they’ll hit the HC ceiling if an offer exceeds that value
• The Magic cannot sign players for more than the vet minimum, and Josh Hart cannot be retained due to no ability to invoke his team option, in addition to loss of draft picks in 2020
• Portland will lose all draft picks and cannot sign players for more than the vet minimum 
• Sacramento has no picks, but if Drummond opts out, they’d have to excise $50 MM from their cap sheet with no money coming back to be able to offer him an extension

So in short...if Roberts and NBAPA want to repeat the 2016 failure of no cap smoothing, the impact is going to be apocalyptic both for the NBA and our offseason. I don’t see how they make the mistake again given the fallout (see Evan Turner and Allen Crabbe contracts...) within the player ranks after that decision, but Roberts has shown to be a bad union head so far

I said it once and say it again, in the NBA teams wouldn't losing draft picks over a pandemic, 0 chance. It's a rule we have in place in D5 that does not exist in the NBA and the extreme circunstances should be taken into account. Or are we going to reward even more half the league that decides to tank just because they can't win and don't have fans our boards to keep happy?


I think the need to enact say a one year grace is premature on that provision if the NBA does smooth the cap— but if they don’t, this is the reality since we follow the NBA cap, and it essentially goes to a level that is pre-2016 TV spike. I agree that it’s a gut punch where teams who did manage to be well clear of the HC line now get screwed for something beyond anyone’s control— which probably would mean that the rule is relaxed. But my post was more about “the NBAPA and Roberts can significantly fuck things up by no smoothing again” 

[Brian Scalabrine]

I'll chime in to say I agree with Ian. I think we should do the playoffs normally and bring players back if realistically they would've been able to play now. It's a judgment call but our entire injury system is subjective. I'm more than fine with Ian making that determination.

Regarding the hard cap I've made my position clear in the past. There's plenty of cap room in D5. If these teams want to get under the hard cap it's more then possible.

If we don't enforce the hard cap this year when it will actually have consequences and increase league parity, then we should just scrap it all together. It'll be nothing more than a farce

[James Kay]

May 12, 2020 17:21:29 GMT Brian Scalabrine said:

I’m not in the playoffs so I’m totally cool with guessing who would be back by now, doesn’t matter to me.


Also, if we don’t strictly enforce the hard cap in this unprecedented worldwide crisis it’s nothing more than a joke. Why doesn’t everyone just tank like me?

lol ok

[Tom Izzo]

I was never really a fan of bringing Simmons back because I knew it was going to lead to this. We're playing a guessing game now.

But Ian's argument about not being fair to Sacramento because Klay and KD are back is extremely weak IMO. If KD, Klay, Kyrie, whoever, are healthy when the NBA resumes their season, even as an 8th seed, they are going to want to play! It'll be wild, it'll be unlike anything we've seen before, but they aren't going to sit "for fairness" that's kind of a silly argument.

Honestly...it really sucks, but I think bringing Simmons back opened up a can of worms because it's all speculative and you can seriously make arguments for both sides. Yeah Sacramento, sorry you might have to face KD in the first round, but if we're going down the speculative route, it might need to be done.

I don't think Simmons should have ever come back.

And to Scal - I'm pretty tired of the "fiscal responsibility" argument. Those GMs who have been tanking and employing the 2K strategy would have been fired. It's easy to claim fiscal responsibility when you intentionally make your team trash and load up on rookie contracts and make no effort to actually be competitive.

[Hanamichi Sakuragi]

May 12, 2020 14:05:20 GMT Jerry West said:

May 12, 2020 13:57:13 GMT George Gervin said:

Per Ian Noble ‘s shoutbox comment re: Woj cap bomb, to put it in perspective for D5:

• Hard cap with no smoothing is $135 MM
• 7 D5 teams would be over the HC line then (DEN, CHI, SAC, POR, HOU, ORL, CLE) and would not only lose all draft picks but not be able to retain any players with Team Options
• As far as available cap for teams under to absorb players, there’d really be just three teams capable of absorbing significant money: MIA, UTA, and LAL. IND could but they also have a lot of players to resign

Assuming no smoothing, here’s the chaos it unleashes for this offseason:

• Charlotte does not have enough cap room to claim BRs on PG-13
• Chicago cannot sign any players for more than the vet minimums, and if Kawhi walks they cannot claim him via BRs
• Cleveland cannot keep Derrick White, Josh Jackson, Rodions Kuroc, and Isaac Bonga due to being over cap (even with Darren Collison’s retirement) and they’re all team options, plus all draft picks are lost for 2020
• Denver can not retain Gary Clark, sign players for more than the vet min, and if Harris walks, they cannot claim a hold
• Golden State can retain Curry via a hold, but after 1st round pick holds are applied (and assuming a Curry return at max), Joe Harris cannot realistically be retained if he receives an offer that’s in excess of $6 MM a year
• Houston cannot sign a player for more than the vet min, and if Kemba opts out, no hold can be applied
• Milwaukee cannot sign Turner for more than $12 MM a year, as they’ll hit the HC ceiling if an offer exceeds that value
• The Magic cannot sign players for more than the vet minimum, and Josh Hart cannot be retained due to no ability to invoke his team option, in addition to loss of draft picks in 2020
• Portland will lose all draft picks and cannot sign players for more than the vet minimum 
• Sacramento has no picks, but if Drummond opts out, they’d have to excise $50 MM from their cap sheet with no money coming back to be able to offer him an extension

So in short...if Roberts and NBAPA want to repeat the 2016 failure of no cap smoothing, the impact is going to be apocalyptic both for the NBA and our offseason. I don’t see how they make the mistake again given the fallout (see Evan Turner and Allen Crabbe contracts...) within the player ranks after that decision, but Roberts has shown to be a bad union head so far

I said it once and say it again, in the NBA teams wouldn't losing draft picks over a pandemic, 0 chance. It's a rule we have in place in D5 that does not exist in the NBA and the extreme circunstances should be taken into account. Or are we going to reward even more half the league that decides to tank just because they can't win and don't have fans our boards to keep happy?

I have proposed a salary floor this year but it did not got much steam. I was not shocked though. Knowing that almost half of the league love losing too much.