Kevin Love (89)

[Danny Longley]

I'm a bit conflicted because I think both their in-game stats are a bit bloated, but I also think that they do deserve to be on a different level.

just my bit, but I think they should be 93/95 (Dwight) and 95/93 (Love) because having a 97 is a bit too far from the rest.

Edit: I meant in-game ratings

[Walt Frazier]

Another opinion from some guys looking at the 2k13 ratings

Kevin Love, PF, Timberwolves: 89 OVR

I never thought it was possible to underrate Kevin Love, but the designers at 2K Sports have done it. Now I understand that Love's defense leaves a lot to be desired. I also understand that he couldn't carry the Timberwolves without the services of the injured Ricky Rubio.

But Love was absolutely unstoppable last year. He averaged 26 points per game, and pulled down a staggering 13.3 boards. Love has the coveted ability to dominate both inside and out, as nearly a quarter of his field goals were three-pointers in 2011-2012.

He doesn't have enough deficiencies to be rated anything less than 94. Despite his underwhelming overall rating, players will still find a way to dominate the game with him.

[Walt Frazier]

Anyway, that's just another opinion like my original one that says he's actually an incredibly gifted NBA Player. He's not in the LeBron class, but anyway.

I stand by, he needs his rebounding boosted, at the VERY least, as mentioned earlier.

[Deleted]

Dec 8, 2012 15:44:06 GMT Walt Frazier said:

Anyway, that's just another opinion like my original one that says he's actually an incredibly gifted NBA Player. He's not in the LeBron class, but anyway.

I stand by, he needs his rebounding boosted, at the VERY least, as mentioned earlier.

I def see him as a second tier all-star. not a Kobe or Lebron but he is def in the class of Anthony,Wade,Howard..etc. I would def pick him in a draft in my top5. He deserves a 90+

[Mike Krzyzewski]

I haven't chimed in on this yet so here is my 2 cents...

Kevin Love is arguably he best PF in the game and definitely a "cornerstone of a franchise" type player.

Based on last years stats and the fact that he is only getting better leads me to believe that he is a 93-94 rated guy.

I'd be interested to know how much his overall number is changed simply by increasing both his offensive and defensive numbers to almost the top as he is probably the best rebounder in the game right now.

Curious about his 3 point rating as well as that is an area of constant improvement for him.

Again, just my 2 cents...

[Walt Frazier]

Rating - Name - 2010/11 3pt % - 2011/12 3pt %

82 - Kevin Love - 41.7% - 37.2%

84 - Channing Frye - 39% - 34.6%
84 - Manu Ginobili - 34.9% - 41.3%
84 - Kevin Martin - 38.3% - 34.7%
84 - Daequan Cook - 42.2% - 34.6%
84 - Jared Dudley - 41.5% - 38.3%
84 - Steve Blake - 37.8% - 33.5%
84 - Jason Terry - 36.2% - 37.8%
85 - Jameer Nelson - 40.1% - 37.7%
85 - Paul Pierce - 37.4% - 36.6%
85 - Jamal Crawford - 34.1% - 30.8%
85 - JJ Redick - 39.7% - 41.8%
85 - CJ Watson - 39.3% - 39.3%
85 - Mo Williams - 39.8% - 38.9%
85 - Ryan Anderson - 39.3% - 39.3%
86 - Kevin Durant - 35% - 38.7%
86 - Jose Calderon - 36.5% - 37.1%
88 - JR Smith - 39% - 34.7%
88 - Ray Allen - 44.4% - 45.3%
88 - Boobie Gibson - 40.3% - 39.6%
88 - Ben Gordon - 40.2% - 42.9%
89 - Jason Kapono - I'd just excuse his two years...very limited PT...maybe he's lost it completely but I doubt it. Probably should be lower than 89 though.
89 - Steph Curry - 44.2% - 45.5%
90 - Matt Bonner - 45.7% - 42%
90 - Mike Miller - 36.4% - 45.3%
90 - Anthony Morrow - 42.3% - 37.1%
90 - Steve Nash - 39.5% - 39%
90 - Dirk Nowitzki - 39.3% - 36.8%
94 - Steve Novak - 54.8% - 47.2%
95 - Kyle Korver - 41.5% - 43.5%

Looking through that whole list is a chore, I may have missed some people, but some things stick out...

If you just keep everything how it is except for Love...he should definitely be about 86-87.

That said, there is clearly some adjusting to be done there.
- Novak should literally be a 99.
- Korver/Bonner/Curry/Ray Allen should be the next group, all should be above 90.
- After that, we should have players hovering around the 40% mark, like Miller/Nash/Ryan Anderson/quite a few more, including Love, at around the 87-89 mark.
- Then, there are guys who need decreases and should be in that 84-86 mark.

[Andrei Kirilenko]

Good thing we didn't give him a rating boost

[Deleted]

Jan 3, 2013 1:08:03 GMT Andrei Kirilenko said:

Good thing we didn't give him a rating boost

Josh.. Your Jazz still have a quarter to play. Love still has a double double on a bad shooting night so far. I bet ya anything the Wolves win! Love has a better fourth...all without Rubio...

[Alex English]

Jan 3, 2013 3:48:58 GMT @griz2385 said:

Jan 3, 2013 1:08:03 GMT Andrei Kirilenko said:

Good thing we didn't give him a rating boost

Josh.. Your Jazz still have a quarter to play. Love still has a double double on a bad shooting night so far. I bet ya anything the Wolves win! Love has a better fourth...all without Rubio...

This prediction worked out well didn't it?

[Walt Frazier]

I'm still not that worried about him, seeing as he's still clearly recovering from his injury and still finding his form. I'll take his stats over the years of his career vs. these relatively few games coming back from injury. Besides, even with a bad shooting night, 13 points, 10 boards, 3 assists, 2 blocks, and 1 steal is a pretty damn good game, considering that is a "bad game" for him, lol.

ALSO, I don't think anything has been decided, one way or the other, on his rating. If we do the whole "high rating/low rating taken out, average the rest", then we probably have enough info to get a rough estimate. Looks like:

Minny: 93
Denver: 92
Hornets: Less Than 90 (89?)
Boston: 89
Sacramento: 90
Utah: 88
Atlanta: 89
Bobcats: 91
Dallas: 89 (Agreed to a boost in his rebounding though)
San Antonio: 91? (90+) Said he'd pick him top 5 in his draft.
LA Clippers: 94

So, we take out Utah's 88, and Clippers' 94. We're left with - 93, 92, 91, 91, 90, 89, 89, 89, 89 (though he thinks rebounding should be boosted).

Average those out, and we get 90.33333...plus one of those low ratings wants his rebound boosted, and one of the 91's I guessed at and he said he'd pick him top 5, so overall, boost to about 91 I guess?

He's struggling this year returning from injury and finding his form, and he's still averaging 19 and 14...come on, he's a damn stud lol.

I still say, boost his Rebounding to what is mentioned earlier in this thread, see where that puts his rating. If it's not quite there, maybe just a little boost (2-5 points) on 3pt shooting to get him in line with how other players of similar skill are rated in this league, and that should probably do it.

[Rubén Magnano]

Maybe, Love needs a new re-evaluation. Some votes were given during the off-season and he is not doing that great this season. His rebounding is great but that involves only 2 ratings that were already very high before. On the other hand, his offensive numbers are dramatically down. His fg, 3-point and ft %s are all much lower than in last season. Personally, i would keep him at 89 and wait longer to see if he deserves a boost or not.

[Walt Frazier]

I think anyone judging anything Love has done this season is off their rocker. First of all, SSS. Second of all, he clearly came back from his injury too soon, and wasn't healthy at basically any point he played thus far.

The rebounding needs a boost, plain and simple (that's about the only thing I've really lobbied hard here for)...the 3's could use a boost based on his recent career compared to other players in this league as well. Other than that, yea. I wouldn't look at any stats from this year as meaning anything other than he was playing injured, means nothing for any of his stats.

[Jackie Moon]

I just dont really think you can justify increasing some of his areas without decreasing others. Love should not go above 89 and raising those stats could do that. He is the best PF in the game at the moment, but the PF group as a position is getting weaker.

[Walt Frazier]

I really don't "care" what his overall rating is. If we put all his ratings where they "should" be, and he ended up at an 85, I wouldn't care, as long as those individual areas are correct.

He's clearly been as good, overall, of a rebounder as Dwight over the last two years...Love a little better offensive, Dwight better defensive, so make the #'s reflect that. And, my study above shows why he probably deserves a bit of a 3pt boost as well.

I think you guys get too hung up on the overall #, IMO. Also, Love IS probably the best PF in the game, so doesn't that warrant a 90 also? Everyone has their own ideas, but I don't hear the people who are trying to keep Love below a 90 also try to bring down some of the 90+ guys, so it seems a little hypocritical to me.

Based on our previous methods though, Love has warranted somewhere between a 90-91 based on everyone's #'s and comments.

[Rubén Magnano]

I agree that an injury shouldn't be a factor to decrease a player rating but when it comes to a boost, you want to see that player currently showing that he deserves it. He is rebounding excellent but he is also shooting really badly. If his ratings are changed right now, everything should be taken into consideration. That is why I think a decision on Love should be taken in the future.

[Walt Frazier]

Love has already proven over the past 2 full seasons that his Rebounding and 3pt shooting deserves to be better than it is right now. I don't see what's hard about this.

If, in the next 2 years, his numbers plummet, let's lower them.

[Alex English]

Jan 18, 2013 3:39:55 GMT Walt Frazier said:

Love has already proven over the past 2 full seasons that his Rebounding and 3pt shooting deserves to be better than it is right now. I don't see what's hard about this.

If, in the next 2 years, his numbers plummet, let's lower them.

Kevin Love is a career 35% 3pt shooter and he is shooting 22% this year. His rating is currently an 82. I don't think he deserves a boost there, if anything a slight decrease.

His rebounding ratings are 88 and 90 for offensive and defensive respectively. He is currently 11th in the NBA in offensive rebounds per game (3.6 per game) and was 3rd last year (4.1 per game). He is currently 1st in the NBA in defensive rebounds per game (10.4 per game) and was 2nd last year (9.2 per game).

I'd say give him a 90 for OREB and a 99 for DREB. I don't think he deserves any other boosts though.

[Walt Frazier]

Ok, so

#1 - Please take a look at my big study on our current 3pt rating system above. Based on where other players are rated in this league, Love should be a little higher than a 82, maybe like an 85. The 22% from this year is 100% invalid to judge the player that is Kevin Love.

As for his career #'s, ok, let's give zero credit to improvement!
Year 1 - 10.5%
Year 2 - 33%
Year 3 - 41.7%
Year 4 (Lockout) - 37.2%
Year 5 (Injured, not healthy, not a ton of games) - 21.7%

What is the trend there? Should we look at the healthy 128 games over the last two years where he shot 39.2%? OR, should we look at 18 games, coming back from injury, clearly wasn't actually healthy at any point during those 18 games, where he shot 21.7%? Which one is relevant, which one is the outlier? This is just basic stuff, I am honestly baffled anyone is using his #'s this year against him. It's completely irrelevant to who Kevin Love actually is and has been.

As for the rebounding, again, this year's stats mean just about nothing, even though he still rebounded pretty well.

Over the past two, HEALTHY, seasons, he averaged 10.08 (D) and 4.34 (O) rebounds per game, which, as Dallas and I looked at before, are rivaled only by Dwight Howard with his 10.41 (D) and 3.86 (O) rebounds per game. Their Total Rebounds Per Game are thus - Kevin Love: 14.42 & Dwight Howard: 14.27. In other words, the BEST two rebounders in the game, and Love actually comes out slightly on top. P.S. - Dwight's mpg in that time - 37.92 mpg. Love's mpg in that time - 37.16 mpg. SO, Love is actually even a little MORE better than Dwight in the rebounding game.

These two are the cream of the crop in rebounding. Dwight is a little better on the D boards usually, Kevin takes the O boards by a little. Dwight's current ratings in this league for rebounds are 95 (O) and 97 (D). Looking at that, and taking in what else we already know, Love should be at least a 97 (O) and 95 (D). Since Love is actually a better overall rebounder (more rpg in fewer mpg), maybe one of those should be one point higher or so, but I'd be fine with it being even like that.

[Alex English]

Jan 18, 2013 16:31:48 GMT Walt Frazier said:

The 22% from this year is 100% invalid to judge the player that is Kevin Love.

Hm, you are right. He's been playing 34 minutes per game but he's been injured the whole time. So you are right, this years stats should be thrown out.

Jan 18, 2013 16:31:48 GMT Walt Frazier said:

As for his career #'s, ok, let's give zero credit to improvement!
Year 1 - 10.5%
Year 2 - 33%
Year 3 - 41.7%
Year 4 (Lockout) - 37.2%
Year 5 (Injured, not healthy, not a ton of games) - 21.7%

You know what? you are right again. He's improved so much. So lets throw out his first two years in the NBA. They are irrelevant.

Jan 18, 2013 16:31:48 GMT Walt Frazier said:

Year 4 (Lockout) - 37.2%

Ah but dude, you have a point here too. There was a lockout last year so this 37.2% from three is also obviously an outlier.

Jan 18, 2013 16:31:48 GMT Walt Frazier said:

Year 3 - 41.7%

So here we are. The true Kevin Love, I feel good man, we are really getting somewhere. Lets break it down some more though:

October - 3 games - 28.6%

Clearly doesn't mean anything. It was only 3 games.

November - 14 games - 35.0%

By the end of this month he'd only played 17 games. That obviously also doesn't mean anything. He was probably still just getting used to the NBA again.

December - 16 games - 50.9%

Yes! This is what we're talking about. Here we have the player that is Kevin Love.

January - 14 games - 47.8%

Again, this is it. This is the true Kevin Love.

February - 13 games - 36.6%

It's ok, don't panic, it's February. He must have a cold or something, I mean it gets really cold in Minnesota right? Irrelevant.

March - 12 games - 34.8%

It's March, he's played 60 games already, he must be exhausted by this point. Irrelevant.

April - 1 game - 0%

Irrelevant, duh.


So here we have it:

December - 16 games - 50.9%
January - 14 games - 47.8%

30 games. 49 threes in 99 attempts. 49.5% from beyond the arc. This is Kevin Love. Look at how good he is. I think he deserves at least a 95 3PT rating. It's obvious that all other stats don't matter because


You really are right. Here I was thinking different people could have different opinions but you are right. This is just basic stuff. Now that you mention it I am honestly baffled too. Kevin Love is literally Jesus Christ and he deserves an overall rating of 106.

[Alex English]

So yeah.

Love doesn't deserve a 90+ rating. Both his rebounding ratings should be 90+. His 3PT rating is fine where it is at 82, but it's not the end of the world if it is bumped up a small amount to like 85.

That's my opinion. On to the next guy..

[Deleted]

Loves one of the best big shooters and he's a rebuilding machine. Very even. Like I said I believe he's around a 90.

[Andrei Kirilenko]

FINALLY everyone listens to me. This whole process would be easier if everyone just agreed to let me make all the ratings

[Walt Frazier]

Nice post there Alex. Sorry my completely logical and thought-out post went 100% over your head.

I'm just working for my team, BUT, I put in my honest, 100% truthful opinion on every single player that is put up to discussion after I do my research, if I haven't done it already for other leagues.

We're definitely all entitled to our own opinions, but you are somehow arguing that less than half of an injury-plagued season is worth as much or more than 2 full seasons that, IMO, Love has not gotten credit for to this point.

To make it clear, I'm trying to get Love credit for the past two season's #'s. We've made changes based on less, Love hasn't gotten credit for TWO FULL seasons of improvement and dominance, which he deserves, so that's the goal here.

Make it happen people.

[Magic Johnson]

Jan 18, 2013 22:57:30 GMT Andrei Kirilenko said:

FINALLY everyone listens to me. This whole process would be easier if everyone just agreed to let me make all the ratings

I hope hell freeze over first before that happens, I'd say BOS is more then qualified to handle that process.

[Alex English]

Jan 20, 2013 3:26:54 GMT Walt Frazier said:

Nice post there Alex. Sorry my completely logical and thought-out post went 100% over your head.

So you chose to double down on your strategy of passive aggressively insulting everyone else, interesting.

Jan 20, 2013 3:26:54 GMT Walt Frazier said:

We're definitely all entitled to our own opinions, but you are somehow arguing that less than half of an injury-plagued season is worth as much or more than 2 full seasons that, IMO, Love has not gotten credit for to this point.

I'm not actually arguing for what that post implies. Your posts in this thread are increasingly becoming dismissive of every other opinion. I was acting like a sarcastic prick in that post for effect. This is my actual opinion on Love:

Jan 18, 2013 21:16:29 GMT Alex English said:

So yeah.

Love doesn't deserve a 90+ rating. Both his rebounding ratings should be 90+. His 3PT rating is fine where it is at 82, but it's not the end of the world if it is bumped up a small amount to like 85.

That's my opinion. On to the next guy..

Back to this bit:

Jan 20, 2013 3:26:54 GMT Walt Frazier said:

We're definitely all entitled to our own opinions, but you are somehow arguing that less than half of an injury-plagued season is worth as much or more than 2 full seasons that, IMO, Love has not gotten credit for to this point.

The part that is emphasized is the really important bit and I think it's the beginning and the end of this thread. In your opinion he hasn't gotten credit for those years. In my opinion he has. His team doesn't win games and I think his stats are inflated from being on a bad team. Until he leads the TWolves to the playoffs consistently while still producing at his current level then I don't think he deserves a boost.

[Rubén Magnano]

Jan 20, 2013 4:37:50 GMT Alex English said:

His team doesn't win games and I think his stats are inflated from being on a bad team. Until he leads the TWolves to the playoffs consistently while still producing at his current level then I don't think he deserves a boost.

I still think we should wait to judge Love. With that said, last season before Rubio got injured TWolves looked like a solid playoff team with Love as leading star.

[Walt Frazier]

Cool, I guess you just decide to ignore the parts of my post that go against what you believe I actually think? Like where I said we're all entitled to our own opinion.

It's all good, the rating system we use here is flawed if he doesn't get the rebounding boost to 97/95 (O/D) like outlined numerous times before, and if he stays at 82 for 3pt, we gotta redo about 25 ratings. Only argument against him getting a jump is if you ignore a young player improving his 3pt shot, and then decide his 20-some games being injured mean more than the 128 games where he was a very good 3pt shooter. If he jumps just a little to 85 ish, which is pretty much what I've said I think is fair (said multiple times), then that would make sense based on our current 3pt rating system.

Wish you didn't read more into my posts than is actually there. Extrapolating emotion and tone from written text is a pretty dangerous game to play.

Do as you please though man, it's all good.

[Ian Noble]

Jan 18, 2013 21:13:33 GMT Alex English said:

30 games. 49 threes in 99 attempts. 49.5% from beyond the arc. This is Kevin Love. Look at how good he is. I think he deserves at least a 95 3PT rating. It's obvious that all other stats don't matter because


You really are right. Here I was thinking different people could have different opinions but you are right. This is just basic stuff. Now that you mention it I am honestly baffled too. Kevin Love is literally Jesus Christ and he deserves an overall rating of 106.

OMG this post made me laugh.

Sorry to say, Walt, but I think Alex English is correct. Love should have rebounding around the high 90s but all else should be left alone for the moment, his overall should not exceed 89.

Your crazy levels of dedication to getting Love a boost is admirable but I can't really agree that his overall rating should increase above 90, even though he's the best power forward.

[Walt Frazier]

Dec 9, 2012 22:03:55 GMT Walt Frazier said:

Rating - Name - 2010/11 3pt % - 2011/12 3pt %

82 - Kevin Love - 41.7% - 37.2%

84 - Channing Frye - 39% - 34.6%
84 - Manu Ginobili - 34.9% - 41.3%
84 - Kevin Martin - 38.3% - 34.7%
84 - Daequan Cook - 42.2% - 34.6%
84 - Jared Dudley - 41.5% - 38.3%
84 - Steve Blake - 37.8% - 33.5%
84 - Jason Terry - 36.2% - 37.8%
85 - Jameer Nelson - 40.1% - 37.7%
85 - Paul Pierce - 37.4% - 36.6%
85 - Jamal Crawford - 34.1% - 30.8%
85 - JJ Redick - 39.7% - 41.8%
85 - CJ Watson - 39.3% - 39.3%
85 - Mo Williams - 39.8% - 38.9%
85 - Ryan Anderson - 39.3% - 39.3%
86 - Kevin Durant - 35% - 38.7%
86 - Jose Calderon - 36.5% - 37.1%
88 - JR Smith - 39% - 34.7%
88 - Ray Allen - 44.4% - 45.3%
88 - Boobie Gibson - 40.3% - 39.6%
88 - Ben Gordon - 40.2% - 42.9%
89 - Jason Kapono - I'd just excuse his two years...very limited PT...maybe he's lost it completely but I doubt it. Probably should be lower than 89 though.
89 - Steph Curry - 44.2% - 45.5%
90 - Matt Bonner - 45.7% - 42%
90 - Mike Miller - 36.4% - 45.3%
90 - Anthony Morrow - 42.3% - 37.1%
90 - Steve Nash - 39.5% - 39%
90 - Dirk Nowitzki - 39.3% - 36.8%
94 - Steve Novak - 54.8% - 47.2%
95 - Kyle Korver - 41.5% - 43.5%

Looking through that whole list is a chore, I may have missed some people, but some things stick out...

If you just keep everything how it is except for Love...he should definitely be about 86-87.

That said, there is clearly some adjusting to be done there.
- Novak should literally be a 99.
- Korver/Bonner/Curry/Ray Allen should be the next group, all should be above 90.
- After that, we should have players hovering around the 40% mark, like Miller/Nash/Ryan Anderson/quite a few more, including Love, at around the 87-89 mark.
- Then, there are guys who need decreases and should be in that 84-86 mark.

Can we please take a look at this and explain how Love deserves to be below some of these guys? This isn't a tiny 30-40 game sample, it's the last 2 full seasons. Thanks a bunch!

[Walt Frazier]

Jan 20, 2013 16:10:19 GMT Ian Noble said:

Jan 18, 2013 21:13:33 GMT Alex English said:

30 games. 49 threes in 99 attempts. 49.5% from beyond the arc. This is Kevin Love. Look at how good he is. I think he deserves at least a 95 3PT rating. It's obvious that all other stats don't matter because


You really are right. Here I was thinking different people could have different opinions but you are right. This is just basic stuff. Now that you mention it I am honestly baffled too. Kevin Love is literally Jesus Christ and he deserves an overall rating of 106.

OMG this post made me laugh.

Sorry to say, Walt, but I think Alex English is correct. Love should have rebounding around the high 90s but all else should be left alone for the moment, his overall should not exceed 89.

Your crazy levels of dedication to getting Love a boost is admirable but I can't really agree that his overall rating should increase above 90, even though he's the best power forward.

I think you guys get hung up on overall ratings way too much. My posts have been highly geared towards individual categories, going in depth and comparing them across the league in this game and IRL. I did ask for an overall boost of Love at some point, but for MOST of this thread, I've been on the Rebounding needs a boost and so does his 3pt (a little) kick, NOT an overall rating kick.

You have nothing to be sorry about though, Alex and I and you apparently all agree on his rebounding needing to be top notch...The study I took about half an hour to an hour to put together on the 3pt ratings in this league apparently doesn't show you guys anything, but maybe you didn't take the time to actually look at it, I have no idea.

Thanks for putting in an opinion though, glad to get some movement on this stuff finally.