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Post by Walt Frazier on Jan 20, 2013 19:40:18 GMT
So yeah. Love doesn't deserve a 90+ rating. Both his rebounding ratings should be 90+. His 3PT rating is fine where it is at 82, but it's not the end of the world if it is bumped up a small amount to like 85. That's my opinion. On to the next guy.. And btw, this is basically my exact viewpoint. If you are arguing over his overall rating, then fine? I don't really care what it is, as long as his individual category ratings are correct. High rebound rating, 82 isn't the end of the world for 3 but could be around 85 based on the entire rest of our 3pt rating system. Glad we agree man. |
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Post by Rubén Magnano on Jan 20, 2013 20:13:25 GMT
Your crazy levels of dedication to getting Love a boost is admirable but I can't really agree that his overall rating should increase above 90, even though he's the best power forward. If you increase his rebound a bit and decrease his hardiness from 75 to 70 his overall should stay at 89 and problem solved.  |
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Post by Walt Frazier on Jun 18, 2013 15:36:38 GMT
Never got his rebounding boost, and my study on 3pt ratings seems to have been ignored. Just saying, definitely needs the rebounding boost.
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Post by Walt Frazier on Jun 19, 2013 23:32:06 GMT
Do you read? The only thing I compared was their rebounding numbers. Tell me Love doesn't deserve to be about equal to Dwight. Right now he is very low considering.
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Post by Walt Frazier on Jun 19, 2013 23:37:20 GMT
Career #'s aren't everything when one guy is a few years younger and developing.
Listen, here is all I think Love deserves.
His O REB is at 89. it should be like 95+ (He's a consistently better OReb guy than Dwight, and Dwight is rated 95...so Love should be about 97 here). Love's CAREER (even though they are even better lately) OReb is 3.9 per game, Dwight's is 3.6. Last few years as Love has played more minutes and grown as a player, he's over 4 OReb per game.
His DReb is at 90. For their careers (again, this isn't really fair as Love is developing and getting more minutes and improving, Dwight is absolutely a beast, everyone knows this, but he hasn't really been getting better, he is what he is for the most part in the rebounding department). Dwight's DReb is at 97 I believe. Love should be like 94-95. Dwight gets 9.3 in his career and Love gets 8.3, but again those are skewed with Love having fewer seasons and playing fewer minutes in his early career. Over the last few years Dwight is at 10.1, 10.8, and 9.1...Love is at 10.7, 9.2, and 10.4.
So, all I have really asked for here is that Love be basically equal to Dwight in rebounding.
Dwight is 95 / 97.
Love is 89 / 90. That's crazy talk. Love should be 97 / 95.
The end.
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Post by Walt Frazier on Jun 20, 2013 0:37:24 GMT
Yes I would. I am fair in all things I do in these leagues. He is my player, duh. my facts are from yahoo.com
I AM NOT COMPARING THEIR OVERALL RATINGS, so please stop bringing that up. I only think that based on the last couple years, they are pretty even rebounders overall.
btw
Kevin Love
'08-'09 averaged 25:18 mpg
'09-'10 averaged 28:36 mpg
'10-'11 averaged 35:47 mpg
'11-'12 averaged 39:00 mpg
And you left out Love's shortened '12-'13 season where, in 34:17 he averaged 14 rpg while injured.
Dwight Howard
'08-'09 averaged 35:42 mpg (over 10 more than Love, so yea, he beat him in rpg. LOL, this means something to you?)
'09-'10 averaged 34:42 mpg (6 more mpg, more rebounds, again, this means something to you?)
'10-'11 averaged 37:36 mpg (2 more mpg, 1.1 less rebounds...hmmmmmmm)
'11-'12 averaged 38:17 mpg (40 seconds less, 1.2 rebounds more)
'12-'13 averaged 35:47 mpg and had 12.4 rpg. (One and a half more mpg, 1.6 less rpg).
So, the mpg are why it's pretty foolish to compare career #'s.
I honestly can't believe I just had to explain that too you. Look at when they have similar mpg. They are similar rebounders, Love is a little better on the offensive glass, Dwight is a little better on the defensive glass.
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Post by Walt Frazier on Jun 20, 2013 0:42:22 GMT
I'm really done with this. I believe Denver and Dallas have both said his rebounding should go up, not many other people have really chimed in on it one way or the other (on the rebounding issue specifically, which is all I've been talking about for the past like 4+ pages).
I can go through and point out people with better rebound ratings that Love is CLEARLY a better rebounder than, if that will help people understand? I don't know, it seems pretty clear to me. There are articles by people who are not me (you know, sports writers, who don't own Kevin Love in this league) who talk about him being underrated by the masses, one of the best rebounders in the game, rivaling Dwight in that respect.
Give Love a boost in Rebounding, there is no logical argument against it. He deserves it.
Any other responses with the same old same old are going to just get me to quote this post again and again :-)
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Post by Walt Frazier on Jun 20, 2013 1:08:47 GMT
OK, so first of all, apparently half the league gets at least an 85 in Offensive Rebounds. Someone like Love who is the best Offensive Rebounder over his last two full seasons (led the league in 2010-2011 per game, tied for the league lead in 2011-2012). In his injury shortened season, he was on pace to be 6th (also, still ahead of Dwight). In Defensive Rebounds, in 2010-2011, Kevin Love led the entire league. In 2011-2012, he was second in the league, behind only Dwight. In his injury shortened season, he was on pace to be 1st by a large margin (Dwight won with 9.1, Love had 10.4 when he went down). I have everyone who has an 85 in either their Offensive or Defensive Rebound Rating listed below. Notice the one player sticking out above everyone is Dwight. As he should be, EXCEPT, for Kevin Love. They are both amazing in this area and should be rated pretty much the same, with Love better Offensive Rebound and Dwight better Defensive overall (though 2 of the last 3 years, Love was better there too...) Omer Asik - 85 / 85 Andris Biedrins - 80 / 88 DeJuan Blair - 90 / 80 Carlos Boozer - 80 / 85 Jon Brockman - 85 /85 Andrew Bynum - 88 / 88 Marcus Camby - 85 / 85 Tyson Chandler - 85 / 82 DeMarcus Cousins - 90 / 85 Samuel Dalembert - 85 / 82 Glen Davis - 85 / 75 Andre Drummond - 85 / 75 Tim Duncan - 74 / 88 Reggie Evans - 95 / 91 Kenneth Faried - 85 / 80 Derrick Favors - 85 / 75 Pau Gasol - 80 / 85 Blake Griffin - 80 / 85 Brendan Haywood - 85 / 80 Roy HIbbert - 85 / 75 J.J. Hickson - 85 / 75 Jordan Hill - 85 / 75 Al Horford - 85 / 85 Dwight Howard - 95 / 97 DeAndre Jordan - 85 / 78 Chris Kaman - 80 / 85 Enes Kanter - 85 / 80 Kosta Koufos - 85 / 76 David Lee - 80 / 90 Robin Lopez - 85 / 72 Kevin Love - 88 / 90 Fab Melo - 87 / 67 Greg Monroe - 85 / 75 Troy Murphy - 60 / 85 Joakim Noah - 90 / 90 Greg Oden - 85 / 85 Emeka Okafor - 85 / 90 Zaza Pachulia - 85 / 80 Nikola Pekovic - 93 / 65 Joel Pryzybilla - 85 / 85 Zach Randolph - 85 / 82 Thomas Robinson - 82 / 89 Hasheem Thabeet - 85 / 75 Anderson Varejao - 85 / 80 espn.go.com/nba/statistics/player/_/stat/rebounds/sort/avgDefensiveRebounds/year/2011/seasontype/2 |
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Post by Andrei Kirilenko on Apr 9, 2018 15:38:11 GMT
Since Walt Frazier is throwing shade at me in chat and acting like I am inconsistent with my ratings and specifically mentioned my "inconsistent" rating of Kevin Love in this thread as compared to my Booker ratings... Here is Walt Frazier arguing Love should be a 94 despite never winning more than 26 games in his first four seasons. LOL Meanwhile I rated Love an 87-88 in this thread which is HIGHER than I've ever asked for Booker at 86. And it turns out my rating was closer to what Love actually should be, as we all saw after he got traded to Cleveland. So please kindly check your facts and keep my name out of your mouth if you are going to spread #walternativefacts #fakenews. In fact, Walt Frazier is the one being inconsistent. He says Love should be a 94 at 26 wins, yet he claims Booker should be an 83 for the same reason. Let me just reiterate... 94! LOL! Can't believe this clown is in charge of rating changes  |
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Post by Ian Noble on Apr 9, 2018 15:49:05 GMT
Since Walt Frazier is throwing shade at me in chat and acting like I am inconsistent with my ratings and specifically mentioned my "inconsistent" rating of Kevin Love in this thread as compared to my Booker ratings... Here is Walt Frazier arguing Love should be a 94 despite never winning more than 26 games in his first four seasons. LOL Meanwhile I rated Love an 87-88 in this thread which is HIGHER than I've ever asked for Booker at 86. And it turns out my rating was closer to what Love actually should be, as we all saw after he got traded to Cleveland. So please kindly check your facts and keep my name out of your mouth if you are going to spread #walternativefacts #fakenews. In fact, Walt Frazier is the one being inconsistent. He says Love should be a 94 at 26 wins, yet he claims Booker should be an 83 for the same reason. Let me just reiterate... 94! LOL! Can't believe this clown is in charge of rating changes Josh behave yourself! Walt is indispensable to D5 and we're all guilty of homerism. |
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Post by James Kay on Apr 9, 2018 16:33:23 GMT
Since Walt Frazier is throwing shade at me in chat and acting like I am inconsistent with my ratings and specifically mentioned my "inconsistent" rating of Kevin Love in this thread as compared to my Booker ratings... Here is Walt Frazier arguing Love should be a 94 despite never winning more than 26 games in his first four seasons. LOL Meanwhile I rated Love an 87-88 in this thread which is HIGHER than I've ever asked for Booker at 86. And it turns out my rating was closer to what Love actually should be, as we all saw after he got traded to Cleveland. So please kindly check your facts and keep my name out of your mouth if you are going to spread #walternativefacts #fakenews. In fact, Walt Frazier is the one being inconsistent. He says Love should be a 94 at 26 wins, yet he claims Booker should be an 83 for the same reason. Let me just reiterate... 94! LOL! Can't believe this clown is in charge of rating changes Walt made that post in Nov 2012 so was only working with his first 4 seasons, the most recent being 2011-2012. K Love was scoring more on a higher TS%, 117 ORTng and 104 DRtng compared to Bookers' 105 ORtng and 115 DRtng lol, lower TOV%, less fouls, more blocks, absolute monster rebounder. Also - talking about fake news but not mentioning that 26 wins was during the shortened season? On pace for about a 32/33 win season, which is more than Booker's ever had. Plus the roster Love had on MIN was even more atrocious than last year's Suns. Love was scoring DOUBLE the next highest scorer on his team lol. Not to say that he deserved a 94, but voting Love much higher than Booker was reasonable. Not to mention, the year which Walt was basing his vote on, K Love had come 5th in scoring, 2nd in rebounding, 5th in FTA, 5th in PER, 4th in OWS and WS, 10th in VORP, was voted to his SECOND all star game, and given 2nd team all NBA. Was 94 possibly too high? IDK, maybe. But voting a two time all star, 2nd team ALL NBA player, top 3 rebounder and top 5 scorer at a 94 isn't that unreasonable, especially when they're your own player. |
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Post by Chauncey Billups on Apr 9, 2018 17:45:50 GMT
#walternativefacts #fakenews Lmao |
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Post by Andrei Kirilenko on Apr 9, 2018 18:00:55 GMT
James Kay my point is not that Booker is better than Love, in fact my voting record shows that I don’t find that to be true. My point is that Walt is trying to push a narrative about me that isn’t true. His continual walternative propaganda against me is something right out of Trumps playbook. I’m curious if he admits he was wrong here or if he tries to weasel a different narrative into the picture.
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Post by Brian Scalabrine on Apr 9, 2018 20:59:54 GMT
God damn why does everything have to be so serious and contentious around here all the time
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Post by Walt Frazier on Apr 9, 2018 23:16:03 GMT
If I blindly look at Kevin Love without already knowing he is an 89, and I try to come up with a rating for him, I'd put him at either 87 or 88. Dude doesn't play defense and has proven time and time again that what he does on the court doesn't actually win games. In his four seasons with the Wolves, here is their records: 08/09- 24-58 09/10- 15-67 10/11- 17-65 11/12- 26-40 I know he hasn't had a great supporting cast, but find me one other player rated above an 85 who has never led a team to a winning record. This is basically the type of post I was referring to Josh. Up to this point in this thread, Love had at least 2 other 90+ ratings, and two 89's. You come up with an 87-88. No, it's not crazy crazy crazy low but it was the lowest here and your main reason was that "what he does on the court doesn't actually win games." You then go on to point out an 85 rating level, that no one above an 85 had never lead their team to a winning record, except Love (and then later you found Kyrie at an 85 with the same issue - no winning season at 85 or higher). I guess that's stuck in my brain since then. ------------------------------------ All that said, this was a long ass time ago. If you read through the thread, I didn't even know how to find player ratings in our game when I made this post. I know quite a bit more about how the game works now than I did then. But, good job man. Good job. |
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Post by Walt Frazier on Apr 9, 2018 23:24:48 GMT
I really don't "care" what his overall rating is. If we put all his ratings where they "should" be, and he ended up at an 85, I wouldn't care, as long as those individual areas are correct.He's clearly been as good, overall, of a rebounder as Dwight over the last two years...Love a little better offensive, Dwight better defensive, so make the #'s reflect that. And, my study above shows why he probably deserves a bit of a 3pt boost as well. I think you guys get too hung up on the overall #, IMO. Also, Love IS probably the best PF in the game, so doesn't that warrant a 90 also? Everyone has their own ideas, but I don't hear the people who are trying to keep Love below a 90 also try to bring down some of the 90+ guys, so it seems a little hypocritical to me. Based on our previous methods though, Love has warranted somewhere between a 90-91 based on everyone's #'s and comments. Here are some fun comments from yours truly. The bold ones especially I still agree with as general principles. I will add another: Don't vote on how much better or worse the player is than the last time you voted. Just vote on what he deserves, period. If he's played better but he was overrated and you actually vote a decrease, fine, if that's where he deserves to be. Just be consistent or at least give some explanation if you change methods of rating. |
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Post by Walt Frazier on Apr 9, 2018 23:40:17 GMT
Since Walt Frazier is throwing shade at me in chat and acting like I am inconsistent with my ratings and specifically mentioned my "inconsistent" rating of Kevin Love in this thread as compared to my Booker ratings... You're so sensitive. It's cute. Here is Walt Frazier arguing Love should be a 94 despite never winning more than 26 games in his first four seasons. LOL At least get your shit right. #1 - I started by saying he should be a 92-94 range. #2 - I later just averaged it and just said 93. Others voted 94, 91, 90, 92. #3 - And I settled in to just arguing for him getting a Rebound boost and then possibly a small 3pt boost. I even said if we get his ratings right and he's an 85, that was fine with me. Man, what a villian. Meanwhile I rated Love an 87-88 in this thread which is HIGHER than I've ever asked for Booker at 86. And it turns out my rating was closer to what Love actually should be, as we all saw after he got traded to Cleveland. Is that actually how this works? Don't we vote based on what a player is, not what he will be / how his game will develop 3-4 years later? What the hell? lmao you're stretching it man. So please kindly check your facts and keep my name out of your mouth if you are going to spread #walternativefacts #fakenews. In fact, Walt Frazier is the one being inconsistent. He says Love should be a 94 at 26 wins, yet he claims Booker should be an 83 for the same reason. Let me just reiterate... 94! LOL! Can't believe this clown is in charge of rating changes See above. I literally said if he's an 85 but HE's RATED CORRECTLY, I DON'T CARE. Long story short, ratings worked really differently back in the day. Love actually got a boost to a 90.something but Ian just kind of decided no on his own, didn't change anything, and the thread died. I honestly expect more out of you, you're off your game. Try again later. |
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Post by Alex English on Apr 10, 2018 0:42:56 GMT
In the moment of non-confidence I'd like to petition the league to grant me emergency powers to make any and all decisions necessary to keep D5 from falling into a crisis situation. We need strong leadership at a time like this! I should be able to autonomously resolve rating disputes like this one, change the schedule to make things run more smoothly, and even alter the results of games to prevent unrest from being instigated by the rightly victorious teams unfairly losing any of their games. For example, the Nuggets have lost lost 18 games this season, what an outrage! We need someone strong to take control and rectify these issues.
It's time to make Alex English the Emperor of D5! Who's with me?
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Post by Jeremiah Hill on Apr 10, 2018 2:51:31 GMT
You're on crack if you think Booker is as good or even remotely as valuable of a player than Love was during that season. Shit he's been more valuable to the Cavs this season than Booker would be.
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Post by Andrei Kirilenko on Apr 10, 2018 5:47:47 GMT
You're on crack if you think Booker is as good or even remotely as valuable of a player than Love was during that season. Shit he's been more valuable to the Cavs this season than Booker would be. 100% agree. Again, this is not at all what I’m arguing. |
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Post by Alex English on Apr 10, 2018 21:44:59 GMT
I'm shocked my attempted coup failed to gain support, clearly I've misread the D5 political situation. This isn't the end Ian Noble. I'll be back. Your days are numbered. |
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Post by Walt Frazier on Apr 11, 2018 23:07:43 GMT
Without understanding everything going on, why the fuck do team wins IRL matter towards a players rating? Of course they do! FTR, I think it should be a factor, but not as large a factor as some treat it. AND, there should be some common sense. If a player is putting up 25ppg with poor %'s on a bad team, yea, screw that guy, that's basically worthless. But, if the %'s are good and especially if he contributes in other areas, it's not necessarily that player's fault his team is a piece of shit, or managed/coached poorly, etc. |
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Post by Chauncey Billups on Apr 12, 2018 1:22:27 GMT
FTR, I think it should be a factor, but not as large a factor as some treat it. AND, there should be some common sense. If a player is putting up 25ppg with poor %'s on a bad team, yea, screw that guy, that's basically worthless. But, if the %'s are good and especially if he contributes in other areas, it's not necessarily that player's fault his team is a piece of shit, or managed/coached poorly, etc. What if the poor %s are from being the only legitimate option on a team? |
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Post by Walt Frazier on Apr 12, 2018 2:08:23 GMT
FTR, I think it should be a factor, but not as large a factor as some treat it. AND, there should be some common sense. If a player is putting up 25ppg with poor %'s on a bad team, yea, screw that guy, that's basically worthless. But, if the %'s are good and especially if he contributes in other areas, it's not necessarily that player's fault his team is a piece of shit, or managed/coached poorly, etc. What if the poor %s are from being the only legitimate option on a team? If you can prove that in some way, maybe. But that's the player I believe in the least, basically. I've seen players on bad teams who are basically the only option put up good %'s (Love is actually a prime example) so I know it's possible. But, it's a somewhat valid point. Probably points to something like Awareness more than just their ability to score or not. And again ties in to how a coach / system utilizes the player. |
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Post by Andrei Kirilenko on Apr 12, 2018 11:23:31 GMT
Since I'm a bit burned out on this, I guess Walt once again gets away with spreading false information about me. I must say, he has done a Trump-worthy job of responding to his factual inconsistencies with a plethora of opinionated posts on completely different subjects and never once addresses the actual claim being made. It is actually quite impressive, and I'm not just being sarcastic. It's legitimately impressive on how good he is at changing the subject and spreading mass misinformation.
I'm not even sure what I want at this point. I guess an apology? Or at least for Walt to admit that he was wrong in his claim that I was inconsistent in my ratings regarding Love and Booker. Anyway, Walt is probably too far down the rabbit hole for this to ever happen, so I'm over it. Stay tuned next week when he will inevitably make more stuff up to fit his agenda.
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Post by Walt Frazier on Apr 12, 2018 11:31:08 GMT
Since I'm a bit burned out on this, I guess Walt once again gets away with spreading false information about me. I must say, he has done a Trump-worthy job of responding to his factual inconsistencies with a plethora of opinionated posts on completely different subjects and never once addresses the actual claim being made. It is actually quite impressive, and I'm not just being sarcastic. It's legitimately impressive on how good he is at changing the subject and spreading mass misinformation. I'm not even sure what I want at this point. I guess an apology? Or at least for Walt to admit that he was wrong in his claim that I was inconsistent in my ratings regarding Love and Booker. Anyway, Walt is probably too far down the rabbit hole for this to ever happen, so I'm over it. Stay tuned next week when he will inevitably make more stuff up to fit his agenda. I like your attempt to call me Trumpian to bait me into action. Here's where I find you inconsistent: it's not the # rating you gave. It's your opinion relative to general league-wide opinion. And, actually, more than that, it's how you repeatedly will mention the "bad team" evidence in old Kevin Love threads but, to my knowledge, either not mention it or brush it off in a Devin Booker thread. That may be a small sample of population (those who vote in SW threads), but it is what we're dealing with in this league. |
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Post by Walt Frazier on Apr 12, 2018 11:32:24 GMT
Also, you're the one who came into this thread and started screaming about my 94 rating. Of course I tore that apart, that's your fault for setting me up.
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