Kevin Love (89)

[Walt Frazier]

Alright, so I understand Kevin Love is not exactly a defensive juggernaut, so I don't expect him to be up there with the LeBron/Kobe guys who end up with like a 98 as their rating. I won't be asking for a rating THAT high, he is not quite on their level.

That said, Love deserves to be a little higher, especially in two key areas I will highlight below.

The last two seasons (Real Life, NBA Stats)...3pt% - RPG
10-11: 41.7% - 15.2
11-12: 37.2% - 13.3

There is possibly some regression, but a lot of players struggled a bit last season after the lockout.

Even so, his 3pt percentage is really great. That was shooting many times a game both seasons, making close to 2 per game this past season. He also increased the rate he gets to the line, taking advantage of another one of his strengths (460 times in 55 games in 11-12, up from 499 times in 73 games in 10-11).

His rebounds dipped a little bit this season as Pekovic gave him a useful frontcourt mate. However, to offset that, the Wolves relied on him even more to score, and he stepped up to 26 points per game. Back to rebounds though...that's sick. He was 2nd to Dwight (14.5) last season, and the next closest was not even over 12 rpg.


Alright, now this season in D5, his stats...
11-12: 32.3% - 10.1

Just a very clear issue there IMO. Most of the rest of his stats are more or less on par, but he needs to be performing much better in those areas than he is right now.

Some more notes on KLove
#1 - 5th in Player Efficiency Rating last season (behind LeBron, Chris Paul, DWade, Durant).
#2 - 4th in PPG (26.0) last season (behind only Durant (28), Kobe (27.9), LeBron (27.1)...and the next closest was Russell Westbrook (23.6))
#3 - 4th in Win Shares (behind LeBron, CP3, and Durant)

I think it is pretty clear that Love not only needs a boost in his 3pt shooting and rebounding, but his overall performance rates him among the elite in the NBA.

I'll accept that his defensive stats are not great, although rebounding is a very important element to shutting down a possession for the other team. Still, he is really not more than an average defender at best. That said his Offense is worth soooo much to his team. Check out this article - sportsillustrated.cnn.com/basketball/nba/blogs/nba-point-forward/2012/03/29/is-kevin-love-worthy-of-mvp-honors/

The conclusion to the article - And that’s not so bad. Love is clearly one of the 10 best players in the league, and any voter who leaves him out of the top five in the MVP race will have some explaining to do.

There are 14 players in D5 rated over 90, and Love is not one of them! The top 5 guys are basically rated 95 and up, and the next group is mostly 90-92.

Love belongs right in the 92-94 gap as a truly elite offensive player, rebounder, and 3pt shooter, and average-ish defensive player.

[Otis Smith]

Nov 2, 2012 17:31:37 GMT Walt Frazier said:

Alright, so I understand Kevin Love is not exactly a defensive juggernaut, so I don't expect him to be up there with the LeBron/Kobe guys who end up with like a 98 as their rating. I won't be asking for a rating THAT high, he is not quite on their level.

That said, Love deserves to be a little higher, especially in two key areas I will highlight below.

The last two seasons (Real Life, NBA Stats)...3pt% - RPG
10-11: 41.7% - 15.2
11-12: 37.2% - 13.3

There is possibly some regression, but a lot of players struggled a bit last season after the lockout.

Even so, his 3pt percentage is really great. That was shooting many times a game both seasons, making close to 2 per game this past season. He also increased the rate he gets to the line, taking advantage of another one of his strengths (460 times in 55 games in 11-12, up from 499 times in 73 games in 10-11).

His rebounds dipped a little bit this season as Pekovic gave him a useful frontcourt mate. However, to offset that, the Wolves relied on him even more to score, and he stepped up to 26 points per game. Back to rebounds though...that's sick. He was 2nd to Dwight (14.5) last season, and the next closest was not even over 12 rpg.


Alright, now this season in D5, his stats...
11-12: 32.3% - 10.1

Just a very clear issue there IMO. Most of the rest of his stats are more or less on par, but he needs to be performing much better in those areas than he is right now.

Some more notes on KLove
#1 - 5th in Player Efficiency Rating last season (behind LeBron, Chris Paul, DWade, Durant).
#2 - 4th in PPG (26.0) last season (behind only Durant (28), Kobe (27.9), LeBron (27.1)...and the next closest was Russell Westbrook (23.6))
#3 - 4th in Win Shares (behind LeBron, CP3, and Durant)

I think it is pretty clear that Love not only needs a boost in his 3pt shooting and rebounding, but his overall performance rates him among the elite in the NBA.

I'll accept that his defensive stats are not great, although rebounding is a very important element to shutting down a possession for the other team. Still, he is really not more than an average defender at best. That said his Offense is worth soooo much to his team. Check out this article - sportsillustrated.cnn.com/basketball/nba/blogs/nba-point-forward/2012/03/29/is-kevin-love-worthy-of-mvp-honors/

The conclusion to the article - And that’s not so bad. Love is clearly one of the 10 best players in the league, and any voter who leaves him out of the top five in the MVP race will have some explaining to do.

There are 14 players in D5 rated over 90, and Love is not one of them! The top 5 guys are basically rated 95 and up, and the next group is mostly 90-92.

Love belongs right in the 92-94 gap as a truly elite offensive player, rebounder, and 3pt shooter, and average-ish defensive player.

Its hilarious that Amare is a 93 and Love isn't even a in the high 80s. At this point Love is almost superior to Amare in all facets of the game.

[Alex English]

Nov 3, 2012 3:38:59 GMT Otis Smith said:

Its hilarious that Amare is a 93 and Love isn't even a in the high 80s. At this point Love is almost superior to Amare in all facets of the game.

Amare is going to be dropped to 87 after the season though.

I think 90+ ratings should be reserved for franchise players who can carry a team. Kevin Love is right on that line I think. The Timberwolves haven't been very successful and that is the biggest thing holding Love back from being considered a true franchise player imo. He is pretty special though, I wouldn't be against him being as high as a 92.

[Walt Frazier]

He is the only reason they were anywhere near as good as they were last year. W/o him in the game, they were equivalent to the Bobcats, 31st or 32nd offense in the league. With him, I think they were around top 5?

He's a stud.

[Walt Frazier]

I kind of want to point out Amar'e rating as a benchmark to compare Love to. Now, I realize that was Amar'e from 2-3 years ago deserving that rating, which is fine.

Amar'e got up to at least a 93 here, and Love is literally better than Amar'e was almost everywhere.

- Scoring? Equal we'll say, maybe better (does not need to rely on an elite PG to get him the ball). He has improved a LOT creating his own shots down on the block and the elbow, etc. Check out that article for examples.
- 3pt shooting - vaaaaastly superior to Amar'e, clearly.
- Rebounding - Is this a joke? He's twice the rebounder Amar'e ever dreamed of being.
- Defense - was NEVER a strength for Amar'e, and again, he got up to a 93.

Factor in Love being a vastly better 3 point shooter and rebounder, and why is Love not worthy of at LEAST a 93, if not 94?

[Jackie Moon]

Love is good but he is not a franchise corner stone player. I look at it as a player that could instantly turn a team around if they were on the team. Only players that should be above 90 are Bron, Wade, Kobe, Dwight, KD, and CP3

[Deleted]

Nov 3, 2012 13:55:08 GMT Walt Frazier said:

I kind of want to point out Amar'e rating as a benchmark to compare Love to. Now, I realize that was Amar'e from 2-3 years ago deserving that rating, which is fine.

Amar'e got up to at least a 93 here, and Love is literally better than Amar'e was almost everywhere.

- Scoring? Equal we'll say, maybe better (does not need to rely on an elite PG to get him the ball). He has improved a LOT creating his own shots down on the block and the elbow, etc. Check out that article for examples.
- 3pt shooting - vaaaaastly superior to Amar'e, clearly.
- Rebounding - Is this a joke? He's twice the rebounder Amar'e ever dreamed of being.
- Defense - was NEVER a strength for Amar'e, and again, he got up to a 93.

Factor in Love being a vastly better 3 point shooter and rebounder, and why is Love not worthy of at LEAST a 93, if not 94?

Love cannot create off of the pick and roll the way Amare CAN!

[Alex English]

Nov 3, 2012 15:36:16 GMT Vlade Divac said:

Love cannot create off of the pick and roll the way Amare CAN!

I'm pretty sure Steve Nash created all those plays.

[Walt Frazier]

Nov 3, 2012 15:00:16 GMT Jackie Moon said:

Love is good but he is not a franchise corner stone player. I look at it as a player that could instantly turn a team around if they were on the team. Only players that should be above 90 are Bron, Wade, Kobe, Dwight, KD, and CP3

I think you are partially right, but your # is wrong. Those players should be above 95. There is room in the 90-94 for amazing players who are not those 6 players.

[Ian Noble]

Nov 3, 2012 15:00:16 GMT Jackie Moon said:

Love is good but he is not a franchise corner stone player. I look at it as a player that could instantly turn a team around if they were on the team. Only players that should be above 90 are Bron, Wade, Kobe, Dwight, KD, and CP3

I personally agree with this statement.

Ratings that are 90+ should be reserved for players who have demonstrated they can be the #1 option on a high calibre team. Love's obviously proven to be the #1 for Minnesota, but the best record they've finished with was last seasons .394.

This is also true for my guy Rondo (my fav player), so I'm not just saying this about other players. In Boston it's between KG, Pierce and Rondo still really, but if RR didn't have a strong supporting cast I have no difficulty admitting the Celtics would fall short of the playoffs and that's why he's like Love, a high 89, but not 90 in my opinion.

So far:

MIN: 93
DEN: 92
NOH: Less Than 90 (89?)
BOS: 89

[Ian Noble]

+ I think it would be good to have a bit more input on Love still.

[Walt Frazier]

Nov 24, 2012 14:55:10 GMT Ian Noble said:

+ I think it would be good to have a bit more input on Love still.

Agreed.

I would like to make sure that my specific points on his 3pt shooting and rebounding are taken into account. If those are raised to a proper level and he's not at the overall rating I put out there, I have no problem with that. Just seems when there is a glaring difference in a couple areas like that, that is a problem we should fix.

[Deleted]

SAC: 90 - Love just needs to prove himself more before he can be on "Timmy Level."

[Andrei Kirilenko]

If I blindly look at Kevin Love without already knowing he is an 89, and I try to come up with a rating for him, I'd put him at either 87 or 88.

Dude doesn't play defense and has proven time and time again that what he does on the court doesn't actually win games. In his four seasons with the Wolves, here is their records:

08/09- 24-58
09/10- 15-67
10/11- 17-65
11/12- 26-40

I know he hasn't had a great supporting cast, but find me one other player rated above an 85 who has never led a team to a winning record.

[Deleted]

Nov 24, 2012 15:59:55 GMT Andrei Kirilenko said:

I know he hasn't had a great supporting cast, but find me one other player rated above an 85 who has never led a team to a winning record.

Al Jefferson.

[Danny Longley]

Nov 24, 2012 16:12:50 GMT Vlade Divac said:

Nov 24, 2012 15:59:55 GMT Andrei Kirilenko said:

I know he hasn't had a great supporting cast, but find me one other player rated above an 85 who has never led a team to a winning record.

Al Jefferson.

Probably dumbing it down way too much, but I guess that's why Al Jefferson isn't over 90 either.

[Deleted]

Nov 24, 2012 16:24:38 GMT Danny Longley said:

Nov 24, 2012 16:12:50 GMT Vlade Divac said:

Al Jefferson.

Probably dumbing it down way too much, but I guess that's why Al Jefferson isn't over 90 either.

We are talking about Love, not Jefferson. I was simply answering the man's question.

[Danny Longley]

Sorry, could have worded that better, but I personally see Love at this point as just a few points ahead of Jefferson, 2 maybe 3 at most because of the fact that it feels like they're just producing empty stats.

[Dominique Wilkins]

I think he's fine where he is. Until he improves on his defense skills, he's good at 89.

[Andrei Kirilenko]

Nov 24, 2012 16:12:50 GMT Vlade Divac said:

Nov 24, 2012 15:59:55 GMT Andrei Kirilenko said:

I know he hasn't had a great supporting cast, but find me one other player rated above an 85 who has never led a team to a winning record.

Al Jefferson.

84

[Andrei Kirilenko]

Just went through every player in the league. The only two players rated 85 or higher who have never had a winning record are:

(85) Kyrie Irving
(89) Kevin Love

[Magic Johnson]

Nov 24, 2012 17:23:09 GMT Andrei Kirilenko said:

Just went through every player in the league. The only two players rated 85 or higher who have never had a winning record are:

(85) Kyrie Irving
(89) Kevin Love

too early too judge Kyrie though, only second season and it's more wait and see result, probably won't see ratings discussion about him until season 3.

[Walt Frazier]

One way or the other, Love's 3pt shooting and rebounding should be improved. If it keeps his rating at an 89 somehow, so be it, but those areas are simply very incorrect for him right now. He's about slightly below average or average on Defense. He's not good at it, but he's not a strictly negative there either. Saying he plays "no defense" is an exaggeration stemming from the fact he's amazingly gifted on the Offensive side of the ball.

Anyway, his rebounding should be maxed out both Offensive and Defensive, and his 3pt shooting should be pretty good. He's not the best 3pt shooter out there, but he's pretty good. He shot basically 42% the last full year of NBA ball, pre-lockout. Then came back with a 37%. Those are very good #'s from 3pt land.

Give him respect in these areas, that's what I'm asking here.

[Lucas Lutkus]

91

[Danny Longley]

Realized I never left an exact number. I still really see him as an 89.

[Walt Frazier]

Nov 27, 2012 13:40:28 GMT Danny Longley said:

Realized I never left an exact number. I still really see him as an 89.

Do you agree he should have his rebounding increased??

People, he wasn't even on the top 10 leaderboard for rebounds this season. That's ridiculously inaccurate.

He also did not shoot the 3 as well as he is supposed to.

I'm just looking to have him play the way he's supposed to. He is one of the best rebounders in the game, and he was not even on the leaderboard in here? WRONG and just completely not close to real-life.

[Danny Longley]

If you want to give him a boost at 3PT, fine but he's an 82 there and I think anything over 85 would be too much.

You say that he's not in the League Leaders, but even so, he's averaging 10.1 RPG. In this case, I think it's more of a matter of your lineup. you've also got 4 other guys averaging more than 4 boards a game, 3 averaging more than 5. Most teams(D5) have only 3 or less guys averaging 5 or more, and I'm only assuming, but at some point, they may be cutting in to Love's boards as far as simulation goes.

[Walt Frazier]

If he's an 82 from 3, then fine. (Where do we find those #'s btw? Has Ian given you guys the file or something? Just wondering).

What are his rebounding #'s set at? If they are already maxed, then so be it, must just be that Hawes took some boards from him or something. But if they are not maxed, they should be.

[Danny Longley]

It's beside the link to salaries near the banner. Love is at 88 and 90 on the rebounding stats, the Person closest to max at Rebound is Dwight at 95/97 with an oddball in Joey Dorsey at 90/90, and Reggie Evans with 95/91. Based on them, I wouldn't have much trouble with Love being put at 95 on Dreb. Though, I think Dwight should get a drop on OReb to something like 91 and just match Love to that.

[Walt Frazier]

Duh, thanks for that haha!

So, here's my final point on the Rebounding then.

If Dwight is 95/97 - here are his rebounding stats for the last 2 seasons - 3.88(O) and 10.39(D)
& Love is a 90/90 - here are his rebounding stats for the last 2 seasons - 4.33 (O) and 10.06(D)

Looks like Love should be higher than Dwight in O and a little lower in D.

97/95 maybe?