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Post by Walt Frazier on Aug 5, 2016 14:42:55 GMT
Ian just asked for bidding to stop. I would assume, If Richardson is allowed to be bid on, a new thread will happen. That's fine. My previous question is still a thing though, and it's probably the only part of this league I dont like. Free Agency is so restricted to like a few dudes on a list that haven't been on an NBA roster in forever. There are shitloads of guys I'd be signing but they are always "not made" until 2 years after they break out. Why don't we just make people on a basis of: If someone signs them, then we make them? FWIW, I would be fine with creating as they are signed. The factor you are missing or not talking about currently is, this is a game played by, ideally, 30 GMs/Teams. Out of fairness, players should be on the FA list before they are bid upon. That way everyone has a chance to look at the list, know who is available, and bid if they want. I'm sure we'd all appreciate you listing more ayers that should be in the league. It's something we're always slowly working on. If there are more players that should be in the league, list em and they can be bid on and created, one order or the other.
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Post by bk on Aug 5, 2016 14:52:34 GMT
That's fine. My previous question is still a thing though, and it's probably the only part of this league I dont like. Free Agency is so restricted to like a few dudes on a list that haven't been on an NBA roster in forever. There are shitloads of guys I'd be signing but they are always "not made" until 2 years after they break out. Why don't we just make people on a basis of: If someone signs them, then we make them? FWIW, I would be fine with creating as they are signed. The factor you are missing or not talking about currently is, this is a game played by, ideally, 30 GMs/Teams. Out of fairness, players should be on the FA list before they are bid upon. That way everyone has a chance to look at the list, know who is available, and bid if they want. I'm sure we'd all appreciate you listing more ayers that should be in the league. It's something we're always slowly working on. If there are more players that should be in the league, list em and they can be bid on and created, one order or the other. I don't even like the idea of a list. If they aren't on the roster then they are on the list <--- ideal scenario
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Post by bk on Aug 5, 2016 14:54:17 GMT
There are maybe a hundred people that should be available to sign. Why find all of them and put them on a list? Why do people have to see a player on a list to know they want him on their roster? Shouldn't they be actively looking for players to sign that will one day blossom? isn't that the whole point of a league like this
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Post by bk on Aug 5, 2016 14:55:48 GMT
People want this to be a spreadsheet game, but the actually point of this being a basketball sim league is identifying talent before the other GMs do.
just my 2 cents.
as far as richardson I have no clue why he can't be signed, or anyone else that didnt get signed in a years time after being drafted...
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Post by Deleted on Aug 5, 2016 16:59:19 GMT
FWIW, I would be fine with creating as they are signed. (...) players should be on the FA list before they are bid upon. That way everyone has a chance to look at the list, know who is available, and bid if they want. I'll focus on this issue and say that if "everyone" is available to be signed. That is, anyone who has declared for a past NBA draft whose draft rights are not owned -- then a list is unnecessary, and also impossible.
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Post by Hanamichi Sakuragi on Aug 6, 2016 0:32:20 GMT
I am with BK here and that was the reason why I asked Ian for the availability of Boban and Simmons before OSFA.
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Post by Ian Noble on Aug 8, 2016 20:44:54 GMT
I've spent an hour on this tonight but not finished my explanation, I will try to get it finished tomorrow.
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Post by Deleted on Aug 8, 2016 22:33:57 GMT
I've spent an hour on this tonight but not finished my explanation, I will try to get it finished tomorrow. I'd say the main issue would be he's technically not created yet -- so he doesn't have a rating. So we don't know whether he should have a PA or not. That would also be the main argument against being able to just "sign anyone", that some of those people would be rated above 70 when created. However, josh richardson here is a rare case, and almost anyone else signed by this process isn't going to be above a 70. So, I think the system works in general, but I see if you want to pull Josh Richardson back and let him have a player agent. A system like this does work, and it is usually decent enough to just have a default rating for euro guys and UDFA that people want to sign -- say just make them all a 60. Then if they are better than that in the upcoming season, they can just be SW'd. JR is just a special case because he clearly isn't a 60
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Post by JR Wiles on Aug 8, 2016 23:09:55 GMT
MY personal thought on Josh Richardson and other players not created---
Any player that had not yet been created should not be bid upon by GMs. Once again I asked Ian last year if he could create Seth Curry so that I could sign him. At the time no Gm was worried with him and this was before he signed in the NBA. I did not argue with Ian about this and I did not continue to bid on him. There was a short time when I was away from the league and I guess Ian and Walt and the TC decided to add Seth Curry and Create him and add him to the Free AGENCY List. I was not aware because I was not around and because of that reason and that reason only, he was signed to Miami. I had more cap at the time and I would have offered a pretty penny for the kid knowing he was created and added to FA!!!
Players that are "draft rights" to teams are not created so they are not and should not be added to team salaries. When the GM decides to sign the player and add him to the teams salary, the GM has to wait for the TC, Walt and Ian to create the player and then at that point the player will be created and added to that team and its salary cap.
I get the idea that there should not have to be a list for GMs to find players to sign. I understand it completely and see how that is fair. Although, it has not been the way FAs have been signed or added to the league. I personally feel that players need to be added to FA in bulk. Individual players should not be added because that hurts other GMs chances at seeing that a particular player has been created or added to the FA list. As with Seth Curry.....he was created and added to the list most likely by himself and even if he was not, the LEAGUE AS WHOLE was not notified. Not saying we should be. Just saying we were not. It needs to be decided upon...should it or should it not be something that is posted to the league as a whole. If it is, I believe that the TC or whoever creates and adds the players should Private Message All GMs letting Each GM know of the created players and that they are now allowed to be signed or bidded upon by the rules stated for players over and under the 70 rating. We as a league do not know until EACH INDIVIDUAL player is created what their rating will be. SO notifying EVERY GM IN THE LEAGUE SEEMS FAIR!!
In the case of J.Richardson- 1)He was not created yet. 2) He was not created because his draft rights were not picked up by the team that had his rights. 3) Because he was not picked up and created and because his rating is unknown he should not be a FA and he SHOULD NOT BE ALLOWED TO BE BIDDED UPON!
so....
for a FA to be bidded upon these things need to happen in this order....
1) The player must be created. The player will not be created until the team that drafted him picks up or drops his draft rights. 2) After the player is Created-- The player will then be given a rating. At that point, if his team picks up his rights he is automatically signed to his draft team. 3) After the player is created his rating will be known and he will then be assigned to a Player Agent AND he will be ADDED to the FREE AGENT LIST. At this time ALL GMs should be notified by PM and Email or their preferred contact that that FA or list of FAs have been added to the FA list and GMs are told that they must follow the FA Signing Rules Depending on Each Players Created Rating. 4) When the list has been made known to the league--at that time GMs can either contact the players Player Agent or they can follow the rules for player not being assigned to a PA(those rated 70 and below). 5) FA's that have a PA will be given contract offers just like in OSFA and depending on the PAs decision, the player will sign with the team that offers the best scenario for that players future. If the player was created and is rated a 70 or below--create a thread with the player's name as the subject, and in the body post your bid in years and total dollars. An offer must stand as the highest bid for 24 hours before it is accepted. An offer is the high bid if it contains the highest TOTAL dollar amount over the life of the contract.
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Post by Deleted on Aug 8, 2016 23:14:56 GMT
That's just so limiting. There are so many euro guys that came over that would be super dope to sign right now for teams, but the people that know about them and want them early don't get rewarded because we have to wait until they have like 3 years of NBA experience before they get created. It's boring.
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Post by Deleted on Aug 8, 2016 23:18:57 GMT
It's just the opposite of how it works in real life.
In real life the shrewd GM that takes the chance on the guy coming over or the undrafted free agent is rewarded. Here we have to deal with a stupidly long and complicated process to make everything "fair". Which is the opposite of how a simulation of how a GM is supposed to be, at least when it comes to signing overseas players and undrafted free agents.
Why do you need coddled JR?
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Post by JR Wiles on Aug 8, 2016 23:38:06 GMT
It's just the opposite of how it works in real life. In real life the shrewd GM that takes the chance on the guy coming over or the undrafted free agent is rewarded. Here we have to deal with a stupidly long and complicated process to make everything "fair". Which is the opposite of how a simulation of how a GM is supposed to be, at least when it comes to signing overseas players and undrafted free agents. Why do you need coddled JR? I dont actually. As a league though things have always been put in place for reasons. I agree signing FAs from others countries and those that just did not make an NBA squad yet, should be allowed. We should be allowed to sign those players---but as Draft Rights, until they do make an NBA team. At that time they should be created and at that time we should follow the rules I stated. If you have already signed a FA that is not created or yet in the league the draft rights will be accessed. I believe the draft rights of these players and the draft rights of players that were actually drafted in the Real NBA and during our Draft Process should be treated differently though. Of course the guys we drafted do not have to be signed right away. Guys that are signed in the way you are talking about should be signed and held as a draft rights players, but because they are signed there should be some kind of monetary hold against the teams cap until the player is created. And the reason for this is because these players may NEVER COME OVER AND PLAY IN THE NBA. Maybe we should not call that draft rights---maybe we should call that Future Free Agents or International and Unsigned FAs. Would something like that be ok and fair to you until the players are signed and created?
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Post by Deleted on Aug 8, 2016 23:55:20 GMT
Yeah, I'd be fine with something like that, where players that are drafted in the NBA and in D5 have to be created before being signed, but a player that goes undrafted in one or both leagues can just be signed whenever.
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Post by Ian Noble on Aug 9, 2016 8:19:27 GMT
I'm 100% sure Josh Richardson should not be on the FA List now that I've thought about it. He might be created before season start but until then, he's not available as a FA, bidding can end.
Whether Chris Mullin should be able to sign him is a more complicated matter, there's a whole bunch of things I'm considering to try and be fair.
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Post by JR Wiles on Aug 9, 2016 10:17:01 GMT
I'm 100% sure Josh Richardson should not be on the FA List now that I've thought about it. He might be created before season start but until then, he's not available as a FA, bidding can end. Whether Chris Mullin should be able to sign him is a more complicated matter, there's a whole bunch of things I'm considering to try and be fair.
COMPLICATED...HOW?
Considering? Fair? Its way past the date and it was about a week after OSFA closing and about 2+ weeks off the schedule and Chris Mullin was LATE AND IT WOULD BE A CHEAT TO THE LEAGUE AND OTHER GMS TO ALLOW HIM TO PICK UP THE RIGHTS OF JR. NO MATTER what decisions about things you decide upon, allowing a GM to not follow the rules is just like allowing the teams that dont have MLE exceptions to use them to better their teams. IF YOU ALLOW YOUR BUDDY CHRIS TO KEEP HIS GUY I WANT TD BACK AND MY MLE!! JUST BEING FAIR AND HONEST IAN!!
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Post by JR Wiles on Aug 9, 2016 10:24:08 GMT
I mean seriously if you are going to go out of your way to help Chris, you could have helped me keep TD or another issue like Phoenix not being able to keep K.Leonard. If you want to be fair and help those situations and players are alot more involved than the importance of JR to Mullin and GS.
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Post by James Kay on Aug 9, 2016 12:21:51 GMT
I'm 100% sure Josh Richardson should not be on the FA List now that I've thought about it. He might be created before season start but until then, he's not available as a FA, bidding can end. Whether Chris Mullin should be able to sign him is a more complicated matter, there's a whole bunch of things I'm considering to try and be fair.
COMPLICATED...HOW?
Considering? Fair? Its way past the date and it was about a week after OSFA closing and about 2+ weeks off the schedule and Chris Mullin was LATE AND IT WOULD BE A CHEAT TO THE LEAGUE AND OTHER GMS TO ALLOW HIM TO PICK UP THE RIGHTS OF JR. NO MATTER what decisions about things you decide upon, allowing a GM to not follow the rules is just like allowing the teams that dont have MLE exceptions to use them to better their teams. IF YOU ALLOW YOUR BUDDY CHRIS TO KEEP HIS GUY I WANT TD BACK AND MY MLE!! JUST BEING FAIR AND HONEST IAN!! Jr stfu already with these huge rants that take up so much space to say so little. You don't contribute anything because your only basis for fairness is your own past transactions. Seriously, you only talk about what happened to YOU in the past, and how the rules need to conform to that.
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Post by JR Wiles on Aug 9, 2016 13:11:57 GMT
Jr stfu already with these huge rants that take up so much space to say so little. You don't contribute anything because your only basis for fairness is your own past transactions. Seriously, you only talk about what happened to YOU in the past, and how the rules need to conform to that. Mother Fucker, I have the right to say what I want to say first of all. I joined this league just like you and everyone else did. Every GM is here spending our FREE time with the league because we enjoy it. If things are not fair, it should be brought up. Rules were in place. Rules are in place for a reason. NO General Manager is more important than the next. Why the fuck to I need to shut the fuck up? I am trying to be Fair. Its not like I am asking for something to happen that is unrealistic or unfair to even one general manager. I understand that I am not liked by certain GMs. I really dont care who does like me nd who does not. Some Gms know who I am(Facebook-Nothing personal) and they know that I am a normal guy that just loves the game of basketball and just wants fairness. I get that Chris Mullin is liked very much by GMs and the owner of D5. I get that there are a select few that are more involved because they are asked to be and because they have time. I get that he is liked and that he is knowledgeable about things. That he has been a good GM. No GM should have better chances or better odds or to be able to have the rules changed or honored in their favor. Its not right and its not fair. I bring up situations to show that things have not always been fair, and that we were not given special privileges because something happened by error or mistake or bad choice . The past is the past. I think as a GM I have come far and I am excited about the future of my team. I dont care about that. It was long ago. But what I was saying is that Chris Mullin should not be allowed to keep Josh Richardson, because the rule was in place and he did not sign his guy in time. Ian even allowed an extension to the date players were to be signed by. Ian then let it be known that at the end of OSFA guys would not be allowed to be signed if not picked up. A few more days went by and OSFA went by and after is was allowed Chris Mullin Tried to sign his guy. Thats a NO NO. He had time. The rules are written. Extended....then ENDED. I dont care who likes me and who does not. I am not perfect and I never said I was. I do though take my faults and accept them. I do not hide behind lies or other people. I would not want Ian to allow this for me. I would not want to be known as a cheater. Walt use to say I was cheating the league because of how I used my roster. I was following the rules though. I was hurt because of the changes made, but it made the league better. I so wanted to quit. I still am angry with Walt over it but I accept it. Same with Bucks GM. It made me better, my team better. It took a long time though to fix those things. Losing JR by the rules in place will not hurt Chris at all. The guy is young and no Star player. At least not proven. SO say what you want----but dont tell me to STFU. I can say what i want and call you so much shit you will cry in your sleep. And if not at least I spoke my mind as I am allowed to do. Not once did I act out in my thoughts until you had to say things as you did. I am kinda sorry for starting this thread this way I did, and I should delete how I started..but I wont be talked to like I am not as worthy and as important as any other GM in this league. KEEP THE LEAGUE FAIR AND LETS FOLLOW THE RULES AND DONT CHANGE OR ADJUST THEM FOR ANY GM NO MATTER WHO THEY MAY BE. That makes a great league and the best league which I think the league is...and I appreciate Ian and all the GMs that offer their free time...I do...but the league has to be fair and even for everyone. Thanks, JR Wiles-SA GM
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Post by Deleted on Aug 9, 2016 18:00:35 GMT
I'm 100% sure Josh Richardson should not be on the FA List now that I've thought about it. He might be created before season start but until then, he's not available as a FA, bidding can end. Whether Chris Mullin should be able to sign him is a more complicated matter, there's a whole bunch of things I'm considering to try and be fair. YUCK! I preferred this response much more: So I can sign Jrich now right I think there's a few others who have the same idea, but yeah!
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Post by Ian Noble on Aug 9, 2016 19:07:48 GMT
To the inevitable outrage of a select few I am going give the benefit of the doubt to Chris Mullin in this situation and allow Josh Richardson (and Richaun Holmes) to join the Golden State Warriors. However the Darrell Arthur signing will be voided because Golden State would not have enough cap room to sign him after Richardson and Holmes's arrival. Initially I thought that since Chris Mullin missed the deadline then obviously he loses his players. The deadline was technically announced, even if it made no mention of 2nd Rounders, Chris missed the deadline, he loses his players. Hell the deadline was even extended due to a longer OSFA period than usual. On the other hand those same things do shed some doubt on things - OSFA was extended, so what happened to the deadline? The deadline announcement made no mention of 2nd Rounders and just said OSFA was ending. Just because OSFA ends on the same day as the 2nd Rounder signing deadline, does it mean if I announce OSFA is ending that the 2nd Rounder deadline must also be passing? These factors atleast gave me pause to think but still made me feel the right thing to do was not allow Chris Mullin to make the signings. Me and Chris Mullin had this exact conversation: 27th April: CM: When is the deadline to sign 2nd round draft picks from last years draft?
IN: This year the date looks to be July 21st according to the schedule.
CM: Ok cool, thanks. I thought we still had some time but wanted to be sure
30th June: CM: If I were to sign my 2nd round draft picks from last year's draft right now, would their salaries count against my cap space for this upcoming OSFA?
IN: Yes they would, or basically they would count against your cap as soon as I got around to entering it into the Rosters Database. Once July 21st rolls around OSFA will be 3 weeks old, should only be BR players and benchers available by that time, you should be good to sign your 2nds.
CM: Yeah thats been my plan all along, but wanted to double check. If they wouldn't count against my cap I was going to sign them now to help in my pursuit of resigning LeBron because if I signed them they would be officially on the roster. However, I feel having their Draft Rights is just as good, but you never know how the Player Agent might view it. I'm excited about getting Josh Richardson on the squad, he had a good rookie season in Miami IRL. He doesn't get the hype of Justice Winslow but he actually had a better year than Winslow this season. Thanks! What eventually made my decision was that Chris Mullin so obviously thought he was doing the right thing and was within the rules and was planning out the end of his off season with precision. Darrell Arthur was signed to an amount which took the Warriors to exactly the Salary Cap ($94,143,000), so that the Warriors then had no more space to use, within 40 minutes Chris then went and picked up his 2nd Rounders because he hadn't wanted them to take up that last remaining cap space. It's so clear that, from what he understood from our conversation, he only had the best intentions. I really think it would be overly dogmatic to not allow him to sign these two players. I don't want to run a league like that, where I can't take these factors into consideration. I don't want to be blindly faithful to rules that should always be evolving. I also don't want my decisions to be ruled by those of you who will call this favouritism. It's not favouritism, the decision would've been the same for any GM, I don't care who approaches me with decisions like this, I makes absolutely no difference to me, I just want to do what's right for D5. For the record I've been mostly disagreeing with Chris Mullin via PM. This quote may not make 100% sense since it's referring to stuff Chris said in a previous reply, but just because some of you will think there's favouritism at play: Replying to each paragraph in turn: What I was saying was if I had known you wanted to sign your players I would've been able to remind you to do it. OSFA ends when you can't place new bids on players, negotiations still continue afterwards, I get the logic that since players are still signing you should still be able to sign your guys, maybe that's something that can be rectified in future years once I get the time to think about the implications. It's still possible for me to feel you raised valid points but not agree, on balance, that you should keep your players. In my decision I'm also considering how unfair other GMs would see it if I gave preferential treatment to just you on this matter. I'm not sure it's happened before. I think that because the due date was originally July 21st, and obviously that was extended to August 1st, there was enough warning for you to make the signings, that's why I think it's a fair decision - the deadline was actually extended and was still missed. I didn't include the 2nd Round signing deadline in my announcements because it wasn't as big a deal as OSFA, I had no idea anyone was waiting to sign their guys, the announcement was enough of a warning of a deadline considering not. I have to stick to the rules of the game otherwise it's unfair on other GMs. The only other July 21st item is unsigned guys enter RSFA and the Rosters need updating, those can wait until I'm back home. I don't feel that the decision should be reversed because there was enough warning for you. I would like to reverse it, but I don't think my decision would be any different for any other GM. However I've since changed my mind because of all the factors I've outlined above already. The situation has outlined the fact that the 2nd Rounder Signing Deadline should either be before or after OSFA (probably before), and that although we have a cut-off date for new offers during OSFA, that date should not be the date of the 2nd Rounder Signing Deadline! We've never had a problem with 2nd Rounders happen before and maybe a rule change would've been implemented already and the situation avoided if we had encountered this situation before.
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Post by Deleted on Aug 9, 2016 19:19:13 GMT
That's because every other year the cutoff date has been June 30th, but you forgot to type it this year.
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Post by Ian Noble on Aug 9, 2016 19:32:13 GMT
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Post by Deleted on Aug 9, 2016 19:46:07 GMT
Yes it was: Note: GM's have until Midnight EST on June 30th to claim last year's Second Rounders here.
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Post by Ian Noble on Aug 9, 2016 19:49:46 GMT
Yes it was: Note: GM's have until Midnight EST on June 30th to claim last year's Second Rounders here. Noted. I'm going to start writing up next year's schedule right now to avoid this happening again.
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Post by Deleted on Aug 9, 2016 19:50:39 GMT
Noted. I'm going to start writing up next year's schedule right now to avoid this happening again. I don't mind your decision. the 30th is a good date for it in the future
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Post by James Kay on Aug 9, 2016 19:56:14 GMT
This is obviously the right decision. There is no "favoritism" or as Ian spells it "favouritism." Lol.
I don't know Chris and hardly ever talk to the guy so it's not like I'm sticking up for someone I'm friends with. But it was apparent from the very beginning that Chris was attempting to play by the rules but things got confusing with the deadline extension.
I'd even go so far to say he should get Darrell as well... Haha
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Post by Walt Frazier on Aug 10, 2016 2:01:14 GMT
Ian NobleI think the very, very, very most weirdest part of this is that those 2nd rounders are going to sign 3 year deals, but the 1st year has "already happened", in the 2015-16 season. I think that's the primary (and VERY logical) reason why you had the deadline as the END of the the SEASON (or, before OSFA kicked in). That way their contracts at least technically "happened" during their first year. In Chris' case, he's signing guys to 3 year deals. He signed them in the offseason of the 2016-17 season. Their contracts will start in 2015-16 though. I always thought it was weird I could sign a guy after the season and his contract would still count to that season that passed, but it did make sense from an administrative standpoint. This, however, is very illogical. It is what it is I guess, for this decision, but it's another point in favor of making the deadline be the end of the actual season, and/or make sure it is BEFORE OSFA starts for the next season. EDIT: tldr - he's using cap space he shouldn't have had. Which, i guess that's why you're negating the Arthur signing, but it points to why I was questioning the whole time why the deadline was ever July 21 and not June 30th. Anyway, carry on.
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