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Post by Walt Frazier on Jul 12, 2017 21:01:24 GMT
Yes, this is true. I've been very busy with my current work schedule, interviewing and getting a new job as of last week, and starting to plan my move to a new city in order to start this job a month from now. My communication with all the bidders left a lot to be desired. I apologize for that. However, I don't believe it affected the final outcome of this decision. If you were wondering, Walt, I did not get any feed back either. We were all left sitting and waiting and I thought about messaging more to see what was going on, but I figured it would only do harm as everyone is busy in life and free agency. Appreciated Kevin. I can tell you my PM's to Alex were pretty minimal compared to a lot of offers I get as a PA on huge name FA's. I sent about once a day, but waited 2 days after my first one. So, about 4, including my offer, I think, over 5 total days. Just frustrating. I can't be mad at Alex for having a real life. I'm not mad about it. But, he should realize his limitations and perhaps pass the mantle. |
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Kevin Hollis
Former Thunder GM for 7 years
All Star
Posts: 2,838 
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Post by Kevin Hollis on Jul 12, 2017 21:07:18 GMT
If you were wondering, Walt, I did not get any feed back either. We were all left sitting and waiting and I thought about messaging more to see what was going on, but I figured it would only do harm as everyone is busy in life and free agency. Appreciated Kevin. I can tell you my PM's to Alex were pretty minimal compared to a lot of offers I get as a PA on huge name FA's. I sent about once a day, but waited 2 days after my first one. So, about 4, including my offer, I think, over 5 total days. Just frustrating. I can't be mad at Alex for having a real life. I'm not mad about it. But, he should realize his limitations and perhaps pass the mantle. So I shouldn't blow up your in box with an elaborate pitch for PG13 on an MLE contract? |
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Post by Charles Barkley on Jul 12, 2017 21:19:15 GMT
Appreciated Kevin. I can tell you my PM's to Alex were pretty minimal compared to a lot of offers I get as a PA on huge name FA's. I sent about once a day, but waited 2 days after my first one. So, about 4, including my offer, I think, over 5 total days. Just frustrating. I can't be mad at Alex for having a real life. I'm not mad about it. But, he should realize his limitations and perhaps pass the mantle. So I shouldn't blow up your in box with an elaborate pitch for PG13 on an MLE contract? This is something I am concerned about. At what point is a GM sending too many messages? Like with Durant, after my initial, I toned it down a lot compared to last year because it's not as if I've come to this new ground breaking discovery of something, same goes with PG. I don't think I've sent Walt a PM in a few days but I don't think that should mean I'm not as interested as a guy who is sending one everyday. I'm just trying to not be annoying and i can only say the same things so many times. |
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Vlade Divac
Former Kings GM
Sophomore
Posts: 630
Oct 20, 2024 15:22:14 GMT
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Post by Vlade Divac on Jul 12, 2017 22:01:40 GMT
You're just revealing your ignorance and reliance on box score numbers. Even as his block numbers have decreased, his rim protection and FG% allowed has remained on par with the best in the game (Gobert, Whiteside, etc). He's not a monster rebounder, just average, but he's been drawn outside the paint as teams shoot more threes so of course his boards are down. He's still one of the best jump shooting big men in the league. o I usually go off of what I see in the games, and Ibaka has not impressed me since his last few years in OKC. Earlier in his career, and ironically before he could shoot 3s, he jumped off the screen as a shot blocker. That stopped somewhere along the way, and now I do not value him as much as I used to. He is obviously still a starting-caliber PF and shooting 3s at a high level possesses some value, but I think anyone would take Capela especially since he is a much better rebounder than Ibaka. On a separate issue, and something that Jeremiah seems to under value, guys can learn to pass, dribble, shoot, rebounding techniques, and basically any skilled involved in the game of basketball. They cannot, however, learn to jump. That's why people take flier on guys that can jump and hope they develop into a Capela, Ibaka, or DeAndre Jordan-type player. On the other hand, if they do not learn the game then they are busts. Some examples of this from this years draft: 26th, Justin Paton, Minnesota Timberwolves 43rd, Ike Anigbogu, Oklahoma City 52nd, Mathias Lessort, Detroit Pistons These guys are hit or miss, and I think the later you take this type of player the better pick it is. |
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Post by Hanamichi Sakuragi on Jul 12, 2017 22:15:42 GMT
This will be my last post in this one.
There is no way in hell he will sign that long of a contract. There is no way. I presented all the necessary statements MADE by KD and he ended up returning to his team with that contract? I am disappointed. I felt robbed.
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Post by Jeremiah Hill on Jul 12, 2017 22:29:40 GMT
So I shouldn't blow up your in box with an elaborate pitch for PG13 on an MLE contract? This is something I am concerned about. At what point is a GM sending too many messages? Like with Durant, after my initial, I toned it down a lot compared to last year because it's not as if I've come to this new ground breaking discovery of something, same goes with PG. I don't think I've sent Walt a PM in a few days but I don't think that should mean I'm not as interested as a guy who is sending one everyday. I'm just trying to not be annoying and i can only say the same things so many times. Wish everyone woulda done that last year. |
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Kevin Hollis
Former Thunder GM for 7 years
All Star
Posts: 2,838
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Post by Kevin Hollis on Jul 12, 2017 22:35:25 GMT
This will be my last post in this one. There is no way in hell he will sign that long of a contract. There is no way. I presented all the necessary statements MADE by KD and he ended up returning to his team with that contract? I am disappointed. I felt robbed. While I do agree with you, and for what it's worth, I did offer a one and one, kd signs those in real life because gsw long term contract with him would be way less or at least I think. |
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Vlade Divac
Former Kings GM
Sophomore
Posts: 630
Oct 20, 2024 15:22:14 GMT
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Post by Vlade Divac on Jul 12, 2017 22:58:22 GMT
This will be my last post in this one. There is no way in hell he will sign that long of a contract. There is no way. I presented all the necessary statements MADE by KD and he ended up returning to his team with that contract? I am disappointed. I felt robbed. While I agree with you to an extent, your logic takes away one of the resigning teams major advantages via Bird Rights. I think the answer is to stick a player option in the contract after year 2, but the rules of D5 no longer allow that for whatever reason. Durant would be happy to have this contract if he broke his leg and could not perform at a high-level anymore. |
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Post by Walt Frazier on Jul 13, 2017 0:29:42 GMT
I have no vested interest in this decision and am happy to see Durant go back to OKC, but taking his talents to Minnesota, in my opinion, would give Durant a legit chance to beat Golden State. Staying in OKC, going to Houston, or even Charlotte would not. Why would Durant want to play with overrated Kevin Love or a bunch of rookies that may never pan out? You are grossly underestimating a Minnesota team with Bledsoe/McCollum/Durant/Griffin/Capela with a solid bench and room to grow due to their youth. I posted this in the Durant discussion, so I will share it here as well. You may agree/disagree with some of the nuances, or even disagree that this is a valid way of looking at it at all, but take it for what its worth: OKC - his team is actually better than I was thinking. Tyreke (82) - Matthews (79) - Durant (97) - Plumlee (80) - DMC (93). The Knight rating change hurts him, but having Plumlee at an 80 is going to make him a lot better this year. This reflects all current rating change discussions and I dont see anyone over/under rated. The total rating in this lineup is 431. CHA - lineup would be Westbrook (96) - Middleton (84) - Durant (97) - Serge (85) - Nerlens (78). Total rating is 440 and has Dragic (82) on the bench. However, Serge at an 85 seems high. Everyone else is pretty fairly rated. MIN - lineup would be Bledsoe (87) - McCollum (82) - Durant (97) - Blake (89) - Capela (72). Total rating is 427, which is actually worse than the current OKC team. If you factor in a Capela rating change to ~78, this team becomes slightly better, but only by 2 points. Is it really enough to convince Durant to leave OKC? HOU - lineup would be Giannis (89) - Gordon (79) - Durant (97) - Love (88) - Biyombo (78). Total rating is 431, actually better than Minnesota. However, Biyombo is probably overrated at a 78 and should be a ~75, making this lineup slightly worse. CHA - 440 OKC - 431 HOU - 431 --> 428ish MIN - 427 --> 433ish Just on the championship aspect alone, Charlotte is the clear favorite. I think it would be a clear-cut decision if Westbrook wasn't there and if he had cap room. The other three teams are actually extremely similar, and all have similar benches. Unless he is going to Charlotte, I don't think there is any sort of argument to be made for Durant leaving OKC to try to win a championship. Man, how many issues do I have with this, to be honest? A few... First - Capela is listed here as a 72, when the Roster page actually says 73, and, as Ian and I should both know, he's actually a 76. The 73 was a bad copy/paste job when I send the builds over to Ian. The 73 was from Jerian Grant, I believe, but that's irrelevant. Clint is already a 76. While we're on it, while you say you checked rating change threads, I know Bledsoe has a decrease and McCollum has an increase thread waiting. Which would pretty much cancel out I believe, maybe you did know that and ignored it because they cancel out.
How long are we going to get so hung up on pure ratings? Look at what Hanamichi keeps doing. Look at what I did last season even as Blake missed about half of the season, and all of the playoffs. I still held onto the #2 seed and still finished my season in the WCF, meaning I got the 2nd furthest in the West. All without Blake. Again, re: Ratings, they aren't everything. And ESPECIALLY the OVR are not everything. We know this guys. We know a wing needs more points than a big or a PG. We know where those points are placed matters. And, furthermore, I still think this argument is pretty straight-forward, and would have LOVED to make it if given a chance, and had I known these types of discussions were happening: OKC #3 Seed with Durant MIN #2 Seed with Jae Crowder (hey, I love Jae, but he's not KD) OKC 1st Round Elimination MIN Not 1st round, Not WCSF, But all the way the the WCF Elimination (with no Blake) So, right there, is sort of indisputable. And that was a year where I did suffer an injury to my best player, Blake, and still held onto the #2 seed and still outperformed OKC in the playoffs, including beating the team that beat them. And it's going to talk more about how ratings aren't everything. Again, not the OVR's. My team is built very, very well. And, that's what matters. I have some guys who can actually play defense. And players who can score. They have clear roles. They'd be good in today's NBA too but they're also good in this sim. I'm younger, and especially with Capela I have more room for rating growth than OKC does. I love James' team. I wouldn't be upset if Durant went there, EXCEPT the salary thing. Aside from that, yes he's amazing, but especially for Durant eligible for the 35 million max, taking 25-27 is pretty significant. Anyway, I got sidetracked while responding here but I think the OVR rating argument is pretty weak. I won more than OKC. OKC has proven it can't get it done with Durant. We've proven to be better than OKC even without Blake for half a season and all of the playoffs. Even if there is injury risk here, he has to realize he hasn't and won't win it all in OKC. The league has gotten tougher since they went to the Finals 2 years ago. As evidenced by their 1st round defeat this year. There IS a chance my team stays healthy. There's even a chance we could beat GSW if Bledsoe or Blake get hurt. IF, Durant is on this team. So, I think that argument was pretty flawed. I'm worried about how big of a role it seems to have played. |
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Post by Walt Frazier on Jul 13, 2017 0:38:53 GMT
Yes, this is true. I've been very busy with my current work schedule, interviewing and getting a new job as of last week, and starting to plan my move to a new city in order to start this job a month from now. My communication with all the bidders left a lot to be desired. I apologize for that. However, I don't believe it affected the final outcome of this decision. This also bothers me quite a lot. If my interaction with you doesn't make a difference, why do we make offers at all? New system - We all look at the teams with cap space, and those who have space to offer for the top 5 or so max players, and have an open position that makes any sense, are automatically entered in to the bidding. They are then informed, and allowed to back out of it if they like. Then the committee deliberates and no one gets to send any PMs or argue their case at all. That's basically what happened here, except we were allowed to send our own offers. With no other interaction it just feels incredibly pointless. If I'm not allowed to argue against the rating system that Josh used to evaluate each team, which I've shown, IMO, to be flawed, or at least that there are viable alternatives that should have been considered, then it's really shitty. I'm pissed off. I'm not mad that you're busy, and I'm glad you got a new job man. I really am. But this is a really bad job of PA communication. Extremely horrible. If you're not going to actually communicate with the teams offering then I think you are too busy for the job. I know we all have our own style or whatever but communication has to be there. And I know everyone else apparently didn't hear much from you either, but that just shows it's a major problem. I hate that I just attacked you but I really feel there is a lot of truth there. For the good of the league, please consider your time crunch in the future, especially before committing to these top FA's. I've got a few myself and while it's tiresome, I'm on here every night and sending probably 10-15 PMs on average each and every night so people know where they stand. I'm not trying to brag, I'm just saying that's what it takes, IMO, to do this job the right way. Someone sends you a PM, you let them know what you/the player thinks about what they said. It's pretty easy in that way. Even if it's just "hey, I appreciate the message, and we've shared it with the group." But, if you do that bare-bones job, you do also have to come back eventually and say "hey, no one else really agrees with what you're saying. You're not getting anywhere with that tactic." Or even the harder one to deliver "Hey, while I know you believe your points here, there are unfortunately just better options out there in 'player x's' mind. We don't think you're a bad destination but there just seem to be better ones that match 'player x's' personality." It's not THAT hard. It's tedious. But if it takes an extra day or two to make a decision so that you can send like, 5 total paragraphs to the 5 teams in on the bidding, I think it's worth it to the league. Otherwise, let's just stop with the current process we have. Send in one offer and let the committee/group decide and then move on. We invest too much in this to get literally zero communication back. Again, I don't like attacking the job you did, I think you're an awesome dude, honestly, even when you tease me about Norman Powell. But I think this was handled poorly and frankly am surprised Ian Noble didn't step in and help communicate with the teams bidding. Poor form all around if everyone else got as little communication as I did. Very frustrating. |
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Post by Chauncey Billups on Jul 13, 2017 0:50:36 GMT
I do have to say that this free agency period has been painfully slow with little to no timelines. A lot of us seem to be in the dark.
There has been a total of 2 free agents that have signed with different teams. All the others are just returning players.
But I am aware of how difficult these decisions can be..
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Post by Alex English on Jul 13, 2017 0:52:07 GMT
Man, how many issues do I have with this, to be honest? A few... First - Capela is listed here as a 72, when the Roster page actually says 73, and, as Ian and I should both know, he's actually a 76. The 73 was a bad copy/paste job when I send the builds over to Ian. The 73 was from Jerian Grant, I believe, but that's irrelevant. Clint is already a 76. While we're on it, while you say you checked rating change threads, I know Bledsoe has a decrease and McCollum has an increase thread waiting. Which would pretty much cancel out I believe, maybe you did know that and ignored it because they cancel out.
How long are we going to get so hung up on pure ratings? Look at what Hanamichi keeps doing. Look at what I did last season even as Blake missed about half of the season, and all of the playoffs. I still held onto the #2 seed and still finished my season in the WCF, meaning I got the 2nd furthest in the West. All without Blake. Again, re: Ratings, they aren't everything. And ESPECIALLY the OVR are not everything. We know this guys. We know a wing needs more points than a big or a PG. We know where those points are placed matters. And, furthermore, I still think this argument is pretty straight-forward, and would have LOVED to make it if given a chance, and had I known these types of discussions were happening: OKC #3 Seed with Durant MIN #2 Seed with Jae Crowder (hey, I love Jae, but he's not KD) OKC 1st Round Elimination MIN Not 1st round, Not WCSF, But all the way the the WCF Elimination (with no Blake) So, right there, is sort of indisputable. And that was a year where I did suffer an injury to my best player, Blake, and still held onto the #2 seed and still outperformed OKC in the playoffs, including beating the team that beat them. And it's going to talk more about how ratings aren't everything. Again, not the OVR's. My team is built very, very well. And, that's what matters. I have some guys who can actually play defense. And players who can score. They have clear roles. They'd be good in today's NBA too but they're also good in this sim. I'm younger, and especially with Capela I have more room for rating growth than OKC does. I love James' team. I wouldn't be upset if Durant went there, EXCEPT the salary thing. Aside from that, yes he's amazing, but especially for Durant eligible for the 35 million max, taking 25-27 is pretty significant. Anyway, I got sidetracked while responding here but I think the OVR rating argument is pretty weak. I won more than OKC. OKC has proven it can't get it done with Durant. We've proven to be better than OKC even without Blake for half a season and all of the playoffs. Even if there is injury risk here, he has to realize he hasn't and won't win it all in OKC. The league has gotten tougher since they went to the Finals 2 years ago. As evidenced by their 1st round defeat this year. There IS a chance my team stays healthy. There's even a chance we could beat GSW if Bledsoe or Blake get hurt. IF, Durant is on this team. So, I think that argument was pretty flawed. I'm worried about how big of a role it seems to have played. There are some decent points here, but I think it's also a flawed argument. This season wasn't the only D5 season. Let's rewind one year to the 2016 playoffs. Your Timberwolves were pumped 4-1 by the Warriors in the first round, albeit with a fairly different starting lineup, but that's not the point. The point is that the Thunder went to the D5 Finals, and they beat the Warriors (and my Nuggets) to get there. That was also their second appearance in the D5 Finals after making it there in the 2012 playoffs in the leagues inaugural season. It's very much up for debate who would have more success when comparing your teams. Using the word "indisputable" is a little disingenuous imo. Given that there is was no clear winner in the hypothetical debate between the two teams, I think we made the right choice to default back to OKC. |
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Post by Walt Frazier on Jul 13, 2017 1:08:19 GMT
Man, how many issues do I have with this, to be honest? A few... First - Capela is listed here as a 72, when the Roster page actually says 73, and, as Ian and I should both know, he's actually a 76. The 73 was a bad copy/paste job when I send the builds over to Ian. The 73 was from Jerian Grant, I believe, but that's irrelevant. Clint is already a 76. While we're on it, while you say you checked rating change threads, I know Bledsoe has a decrease and McCollum has an increase thread waiting. Which would pretty much cancel out I believe, maybe you did know that and ignored it because they cancel out.
How long are we going to get so hung up on pure ratings? Look at what Hanamichi keeps doing. Look at what I did last season even as Blake missed about half of the season, and all of the playoffs. I still held onto the #2 seed and still finished my season in the WCF, meaning I got the 2nd furthest in the West. All without Blake. Again, re: Ratings, they aren't everything. And ESPECIALLY the OVR are not everything. We know this guys. We know a wing needs more points than a big or a PG. We know where those points are placed matters. And, furthermore, I still think this argument is pretty straight-forward, and would have LOVED to make it if given a chance, and had I known these types of discussions were happening: OKC #3 Seed with Durant MIN #2 Seed with Jae Crowder (hey, I love Jae, but he's not KD) OKC 1st Round Elimination MIN Not 1st round, Not WCSF, But all the way the the WCF Elimination (with no Blake) So, right there, is sort of indisputable. And that was a year where I did suffer an injury to my best player, Blake, and still held onto the #2 seed and still outperformed OKC in the playoffs, including beating the team that beat them. And it's going to talk more about how ratings aren't everything. Again, not the OVR's. My team is built very, very well. And, that's what matters. I have some guys who can actually play defense. And players who can score. They have clear roles. They'd be good in today's NBA too but they're also good in this sim. I'm younger, and especially with Capela I have more room for rating growth than OKC does. I love James' team. I wouldn't be upset if Durant went there, EXCEPT the salary thing. Aside from that, yes he's amazing, but especially for Durant eligible for the 35 million max, taking 25-27 is pretty significant. Anyway, I got sidetracked while responding here but I think the OVR rating argument is pretty weak. I won more than OKC. OKC has proven it can't get it done with Durant. We've proven to be better than OKC even without Blake for half a season and all of the playoffs. Even if there is injury risk here, he has to realize he hasn't and won't win it all in OKC. The league has gotten tougher since they went to the Finals 2 years ago. As evidenced by their 1st round defeat this year. There IS a chance my team stays healthy. There's even a chance we could beat GSW if Bledsoe or Blake get hurt. IF, Durant is on this team. So, I think that argument was pretty flawed. I'm worried about how big of a role it seems to have played. There are some decent points here, but I think it's also a flawed argument. This season wasn't the only D5 season. Let's rewind one year to the 2016 playoffs. Your Timberwolves were pumped 4-1 by the Warriors in the first round, albeit with a fairly different starting lineup, but that's not the point. The point is that the Thunder went to the D5 Finals, and they beat the Warriors (and my Nuggets) to get there. That was also their second appearance in the D5 Finals after making it there in the 2012 playoffs in the leagues inaugural season. It's very much up for debate who would have more success when comparing your teams. Using the word "indisputable" is a little disingenuous imo. Given that there is was no clear winner in the hypothetical debate between the two teams, I think we made the right choice to default back to OKC. Lost among my long post, though actually referenced by you, is OKC has been really good with Durant for a really long time but still hasn't won. And, lost in your point is that the league has changed quite a bit. You reference a different starting lineup for me but look at how the league has changed recently. LeBron to GSW. The Bulls new superteam. Players who truly want to win a RING, not just win, but win it all, are going to go to super teams. Unless they're Damian Lillard who wants to do it his own way. There may be more of those guys out there but we haven't really heard from them and we have heard from the super team guys. Gordon Hayward is another one. Durant is one himself. He can say he just likes how they play the game together, and I'm sure that's part of it, but he went to the best team he could get to because he wanted to win rings. He's taking less money because he wants to win rings, and he KNOWS he can win rings with the Warriors. I just think OKC has proven they can't get over the hump. I think it's being ignored that even without Blake Griffin I got a LOT further than OKC in the playoffs last year. Stop living in the past. The league evolves. My team is built better than most others in the West, even without Blake, we get further than his old team or than the Rockets. Because we have clearer roles. If Bledsoe-McCollum-Jae-Favors-Capela is a WCF team and a better team than last year's OKC Thunder, how is Bledsoe-McCollum-Durant-Griffin-Capela not still significantly better and offer a better chance to win a ring? It's all moot, I get it, but even you admit there are some good points in my post. Why wasn't I allowed to make them to the group and possibly change some minds, and maybe swing things my way? |
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Post by Walt Frazier on Jul 13, 2017 1:10:59 GMT
It's very much up for debate who would have more success when comparing your teams. Using the word "indisputable" is a little disingenuous imo. Given that there is was no clear winner in the hypothetical debate between the two teams, I think we made the right choice to default back to OKC. You can say it's disingenuous. I'd say it's a debate tactic. And, it is actually factual. Last year, who was better? Even without a complete team due to an injury to Blake. The Timberwolves were better. Why wouldn't he join the better team, who was better even WITH an injury? He has a better chance that 2 out of every 4 years we're all healthy here in Minny than he does playing every year with the roster he has in OKC right now. I simply was referring to the facts from last season. Again, this league is evolving. If you all used 2012 as anything close to a deciding factor, even if one of 27 factors, that's pretty odd. |
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Post by Alex English on Jul 13, 2017 1:18:43 GMT
This also bothers me quite a lot. If my interaction with you doesn't make a difference, why do we make offers at all? Shit man, I don't know, what difference does it make? Let's be very honest with ourselves. You've been a player agent for at least as long as I have. Please take a minute and scroll through all 104 posts currently in the Paul George discussion thread. Tell me, how much of the debate is based on the interaction with the GMs, and how much is based on personal interpretations of the participants in the discussion? I think the answer is that an overwhelming majority comes from independent interpretations. The opening offer is important, it outlines the overall plan the GM has and gives a lot of great insight into their passion and how much they've really thought about things. But what do subsequent replies do? If a question comes up we can go back for clarification, and we did this with Houston and asked him to elaborate on his plans to fit Giannis and KD together, but if there are no questions, then I think the efforts of all the GMs bidding kind of cancel each other out. Am I supposed to take your word for it that your team is the best destination for Kevin Durant? No, I'm supposed to think critically about that statement and see beyond your sales pitch. James Kay is also telling me that his team is the best destination for KD, and Charles Barkley is telling me that his team is the best destination for KD, and Kevin Hollis is telling me that his team is the best destination for KD. See what I'm saying? All GMs make their pitch from a place of significant bias. It's the job of the PAs to see through the bias and determine, from the most neutral point of view as possible, what the best course of action is. Then proceed down that road to come to a decision. So I know you were sarcastic about this: New system - We all look at the teams with cap space, and those who have space to offer for the top 5 or so max players, and have an open position that makes any sense, are automatically entered in to the bidding. They are then informed, and allowed to back out of it if they like. But being real for a second, would that system produce significantly different results? I'm not sure it would. Especially for the big names like Kevin Durant where everyone that can conceivably make a bid, does so. |
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Post by Alex English on Jul 13, 2017 1:21:02 GMT
You can say it's disingenuous. I'd say it's a debate tactic. So, I think you've just made the main argument in my previous reply even stronger. |
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Post by Walt Frazier on Jul 13, 2017 2:08:30 GMT
This also bothers me quite a lot. If my interaction with you doesn't make a difference, why do we make offers at all? Shit man, I don't know, what difference does it make? Let's be very honest with ourselves. You've been a player agent for at least as long as I have. Please take a minute and scroll through all 104 posts currently in the Paul George discussion thread. Tell me, how much of the debate is based on the interaction with the GMs, and how much is based on personal interpretations of the participants in the discussion? I think the answer is that an overwhelming majority comes from independent interpretations. The opening offer is important, it outlines the overall plan the GM has and gives a lot of great insight into their passion and how much they've really thought about things. But what do subsequent replies do? If a question comes up we can go back for clarification, and we did this with Houston and asked him to elaborate on his plans to fit Giannis and KD together, but if there are no questions, then I think the efforts of all the GMs bidding kind of cancel each other out. Am I supposed to take your word for it that your team is the best destination for Kevin Durant? No, I'm supposed to think critically about that statement and see beyond your sales pitch. James Kay is also telling me that his team is the best destination for KD, and Charles Barkley is telling me that his team is the best destination for KD, and Kevin Hollis is telling me that his team is the best destination for KD. See what I'm saying? All GMs make their pitch from a place of significant bias. It's the job of the PAs to see through the bias and determine, from the most neutral point of view as possible, what the best course of action is. Then proceed down that road to come to a decision. So I know you were sarcastic about this: New system - We all look at the teams with cap space, and those who have space to offer for the top 5 or so max players, and have an open position that makes any sense, are automatically entered in to the bidding. They are then informed, and allowed to back out of it if they like. But being real for a second, would that system produce significantly different results? I'm not sure it would. Especially for the big names like Kevin Durant where everyone that can conceivably make a bid, does so. 1) Of course everyone offering thinks they're the best place. Or, of course they TELL you they are in their offers. Otherwise they wouldn't even offer lol. Yes, we need to see through the bullshit and we also need to see who is just misguided. There are even arguments for teams that those managers don't always think of on their own. That doesn't mean they shouldn't get the chance to argue for themselves, and understand what the PA group is thinking, and then react to that. I know I don't think I'm smarter than everyone else here. I think I have another set of opinions, just like the other 29 managers, and I think they're all valuable. If a team is bidding, and a team is bringing new thoughts to the table, I'm at least entertaining the thought, tasting it, seeing how it feels. And if it tastes like diet Fresca and feels like a sack of potatoes to the scrotum, then I'm telling them. 2) Yes, a ton of our interaction in the PA threads is with each other. I assume you also copied in my other blurbs as I was bringing in at least some new thoughts when I was messaging you after my initial offer. But, I like to think a lot of our interaction is based on the first arguments the teams make for themselves, and when new stuff comes in, I'm always sharing it, reacting to it, and sharing with the teams our general reactions. 3) While I was sort of sarcastic with the comment you quoted I also wasn't. I'm serious. I'm tired of putting in THIS MUCH EFFORT, both as a bidding team, and also as a PA, if other PA's aren't putting in the same or similar effort I'm putting in. Apparently I'm wasting my time responding to these teams. If it's not needed for Kevin Fucking Durant, then no one else should get any responses either. Stop wasting all of our time Ian Noble and let's change the whole system if you're OK with how Durant was handled. |
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Post by Walt Frazier on Jul 13, 2017 2:09:16 GMT
You can say it's disingenuous. I'd say it's a debate tactic. So, I think you've just made the main argument in my previous reply even stronger. Yes, you believe teams shouldn't have the chance to argue for themselves during a days/week + long bidding process. That's quite clear Alex. |
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Kevin Hollis
Former Thunder GM for 7 years
All Star
Posts: 2,838
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Post by Kevin Hollis on Jul 13, 2017 2:10:26 GMT
Honestly, staying out of the pa argument because I don't know what goes on, but if you would have went after PG, to me at least, it's a sure thing - hopefully this comment doesn't piss people off, but it's how I feel.
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Vlade Divac
Former Kings GM
Sophomore
Posts: 630
Oct 20, 2024 15:22:14 GMT
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Post by Vlade Divac on Jul 13, 2017 2:15:00 GMT
Honestly, staying out of the pa argument because I don't know what goes on, but if you would have went after PG, to me at least, it's a sure thing - hopefully this comment doesn't piss people off, but it's how I feel. Who is you? |
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Post by Chauncey Billups on Jul 13, 2017 2:15:40 GMT
Honestly, staying out of the pa argument because I don't know what goes on, but if you would have went after PG, to me at least, it's a sure thing - hopefully this comment doesn't piss people off, but it's how I feel. Who is you? Walt |
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Kevin Hollis
Former Thunder GM for 7 years
All Star
Posts: 2,838
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Post by Kevin Hollis on Jul 13, 2017 2:16:30 GMT
Honestly, staying out of the pa argument because I don't know what goes on, but if you would have went after PG, to me at least, it's a sure thing - hopefully this comment doesn't piss people off, but it's how I feel. Who is you? Don't get what is going on with this. |
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Post by Walt Frazier on Jul 13, 2017 2:19:24 GMT
Honestly, staying out of the pa argument because I don't know what goes on, but if you would have went after PG, to me at least, it's a sure thing - hopefully this comment doesn't piss people off, but it's how I feel. I'm not allowed to bid on him b/c I'm his PA. I didn't go after him originally b/c I knew it would be sort of "messy". Not that I thought KD was a lock to go to me, honestly, I just focused on him and didn't focus on PG. But, the PA's think you'll all revolt if I get to offer on PG after I declared the bidding closed a few days ago, since no new offers were coming in at that time. Oh well I guess. |
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Post by Chauncey Billups on Jul 13, 2017 2:25:31 GMT
Honestly, staying out of the pa argument because I don't know what goes on, but if you would have went after PG, to me at least, it's a sure thing - hopefully this comment doesn't piss people off, but it's how I feel. I'm not allowed to bid on him b/c I'm his PA. I didn't go after him originally b/c I knew it would be sort of "messy". Not that I thought KD was a lock to go to me, honestly, I just focused on him and didn't focus on PG. But, the PA's think you'll all revolt if I get to offer on PG after I declared the bidding closed a few days ago, since no new offers were coming in at that time. Oh well I guess. The only reason I'd be against you being able to offer is because if you could, then you would have to reopen for everybody. Then it would take another 3 months of debating. Once a decision is made I'm sure somebody will file an appeal and take that shit to the supreme court considering how salty everybody is. |
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Post by Walt Frazier on Jul 13, 2017 2:27:35 GMT
I'm not allowed to bid on him b/c I'm his PA. I didn't go after him originally b/c I knew it would be sort of "messy". Not that I thought KD was a lock to go to me, honestly, I just focused on him and didn't focus on PG. But, the PA's think you'll all revolt if I get to offer on PG after I declared the bidding closed a few days ago, since no new offers were coming in at that time. Oh well I guess. The only reason I'd be against you being able to offer is because if you could, then you would have to reopen for everybody. Then it would take another 3 months of debating. Once a decision is made I'm sure somebody will file an appeal and take that shit to the supreme court considering how salty everybody is. I'd be more than willing to open it up for everyone else, though realistically, not many teams have drastically changed their team since the start of FA. I suppose you have by getting Lillard back. I think based on the current teams in consideration plus let's say you and me, it could probably get narrowed down pretty quickly. But, it's not happening. |
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Post by Chauncey Billups on Jul 13, 2017 2:31:31 GMT
The only reason I'd be against you being able to offer is because if you could, then you would have to reopen for everybody. Then it would take another 3 months of debating. Once a decision is made I'm sure somebody will file an appeal and take that shit to the supreme court considering how salty everybody is. I'd be more than willing to open it up for everyone else, though realistically, not many teams have drastically changed their team since the start of FA. I suppose you have by getting Lillard back. I think based on the current teams in consideration plus let's say you and me, it could probably get narrowed down pretty quickly. But, it's not happening. Maybe. But I can tell you right now that I wouldn't offer for him because I doubt he'd sign here, so it would technically be just you. HOWEVER, this place would implode. |
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Post by Alex English on Jul 13, 2017 3:23:10 GMT
Yes, you believe teams shouldn't have the chance to argue for themselves during a days/week + long bidding process. That's quite clear Alex. Sure, totally what I was going for. Glad we could come to an agreement on this.  On the bright side, can we all maybe take note of this year's free agency and put the nail in the coffin of this 'old boys club' that is supposedly a thing? Ian Noble is pissed about Damian Lillard. Walt Frazier is pissed about Kevin Durant. The fuse has been lit and someone is going to be pissed about Paul George. It's free agency! That wonderful time of the year where everyone gets pissed at everyone! Yaaaaay!  |
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Post by Charles Barkley on Jul 13, 2017 3:27:57 GMT
So, I think you've just made the main argument in my previous reply even stronger. Yes, you believe teams shouldn't have the chance to argue for themselves during a days/week + long bidding process. That's quite clear Alex. So, since everyone is dying and sitting on pins and needles for my opinion, I'll give it. My take on OSFA is that the player's actions should replicate those seen in real life to the furthest extent possible. Durant left OKC and publicly was on record saying he felt he liked the brand of basketball in Golden State more and that those guys were more "fun" to be around. This was interpreted by a lot of people, and I think correctly, that Durant doesn't or didn't enjoy playing with Russ. So, right off the bat, James Kay should be behind the eight ball. Alex told me in the beginning of negotiations that Kevin Durant values winning above all else. And I think that is a correct approach to take. Because behind Durant's public statements, we all knew it was about winning. So, we have: he wants to win and wants to have fun (not play with Russ). Having fun and representing a brand of basketball that is fun is hard to do in the sim. But you can use your own imagination, kind of, and that's where it becomes subjective. I tried to play on this in my negotiations as best I could. But we have winning to account for. The teams need to be able to knock off, or at least appear to be able to knock off, the Warriors trio of Lebron, Klay, and Curry and the Bulls trio of Butler, Kawhi, and Paul. Of the final four teams, there's only one team in the last two years that has beat either of those two line-ups, Kevin Hollis 's Thunder. But those same Thunder lost to James' Hornets. And Walt's Wolves bested the Thunder in the regular season and my Rockets beat the Thunder easy in the first round. So it leaves us wondering which is what. The Bulls and Warriors have 3 All-Stars a piece, the Thunder only have 2 with Durant and Cousins. The Timberwolves are a team more so than a trio but McCollum, Bledsoe, Blake, and Capela are solid. Russ and Middleton are good, and Russ KD and Middleton may be able to knock the Bulls or Warriors off. Giannis and Love with KD would give a similar Kyrie/LeBron effect with Giannis and KD. So in that respect, you have what seems to be the Thunder lacking in talent but ahead in production from a year ago but not this past season. You have the Wolves ahead in production but lacking in "stars", the Hornets being alright but again they have Russ, and the Rockets besting the Thunder in production this season and some star quality/talent. Its not an easy decision, and its not clear cut by any means. You can probably eliminate the Rockets and the Hornets. So does he leave to the Timberwolves? If he was going to leave, I feel it should have been to Walt. Which brings us back to why he left -- brand of basketball and winning. I don't think you can definitively say that the T'Wolves with Durant would be the favorite in the West or the East let alone the NBA. And how long does that team stay together like that? Capela is a relatively healthy dude, McCollum as well. Bledsoe has been sliding backwards, as has Blake. If it were Capela having injury issues along with McCollum, I think that changes it heavily into Walt's favor. Why money was really even mentioned here is interesting, considering he took a big paycut IRL, but it is nice to know the PA's understand that he took a paycut to keep a winning team together, not to build a winning team. And neither of the bidders were defending champs or had been to the finals the previous season. I think if Durant were to leave, and I think that is the real question here and I'm glad the PA's did a good job about that because it would have been easy to just make that decision from the jump, he should have went to the Wolves. The difference in talent is outweighed by the difference in production, and to guard against injuries, Durant could have signed a shorter deal. I think the PA's did a good job on this with their voting, I know its not easy. And I know that emotions get the best of us during this process. |
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Post by Charles Barkley on Jul 13, 2017 3:28:59 GMT
Yes, you believe teams shouldn't have the chance to argue for themselves during a days/week + long bidding process. That's quite clear Alex. Sure, totally what I was going for. Glad we could come to an agreement on this. On the bright side, can we all maybe take note of this year's free agency and put the nail in the coffin of this 'old boys club' that is supposedly a thing? Ian Noble is pissed about Damian Lillard. Walt Frazier is pissed about Kevin Durant. The fuse has been lit and someone is going to be pissed about Paul George. It's free agency! That wonderful time of the year where everyone gets pissed at everyone! Yaaaaay! So there's two spots open in TGOBC? Or is this all a front to make it appear like there never even was one? /sarcasm |
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Vlade Divac
Former Kings GM
Sophomore
Posts: 630
Oct 20, 2024 15:22:14 GMT
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Post by Vlade Divac on Jul 13, 2017 3:31:29 GMT
Man, how many issues do I have with this, to be honest? A few... First - Capela is listed here as a 72, when the Roster page actually says 73, and, as Ian and I should both know, he's actually a 76. The 73 was a bad copy/paste job when I send the builds over to Ian. The 73 was from Jerian Grant, I believe, but that's irrelevant. Clint is already a 76. While we're on it, while you say you checked rating change threads, I know Bledsoe has a decrease and McCollum has an increase thread waiting. Which would pretty much cancel out I believe, maybe you did know that and ignored it because they cancel out.
How long are we going to get so hung up on pure ratings? Look at what Hanamichi keeps doing. Look at what I did last season even as Blake missed about half of the season, and all of the playoffs. I still held onto the #2 seed and still finished my season in the WCF, meaning I got the 2nd furthest in the West. All without Blake. Again, re: Ratings, they aren't everything. And ESPECIALLY the OVR are not everything. We know this guys. We know a wing needs more points than a big or a PG. We know where those points are placed matters. And, furthermore, I still think this argument is pretty straight-forward, and would have LOVED to make it if given a chance, and had I known these types of discussions were happening: OKC #3 Seed with Durant MIN #2 Seed with Jae Crowder (hey, I love Jae, but he's not KD) OKC 1st Round Elimination MIN Not 1st round, Not WCSF, But all the way the the WCF Elimination (with no Blake) So, right there, is sort of indisputable. And that was a year where I did suffer an injury to my best player, Blake, and still held onto the #2 seed and still outperformed OKC in the playoffs, including beating the team that beat them. And it's going to talk more about how ratings aren't everything. Again, not the OVR's. My team is built very, very well. And, that's what matters. I have some guys who can actually play defense. And players who can score. They have clear roles. They'd be good in today's NBA too but they're also good in this sim. I'm younger, and especially with Capela I have more room for rating growth than OKC does. I love James' team. I wouldn't be upset if Durant went there, EXCEPT the salary thing. Aside from that, yes he's amazing, but especially for Durant eligible for the 35 million max, taking 25-27 is pretty significant. Anyway, I got sidetracked while responding here but I think the OVR rating argument is pretty weak. I won more than OKC. OKC has proven it can't get it done with Durant. We've proven to be better than OKC even without Blake for half a season and all of the playoffs. Even if there is injury risk here, he has to realize he hasn't and won't win it all in OKC. The league has gotten tougher since they went to the Finals 2 years ago. As evidenced by their 1st round defeat this year. There IS a chance my team stays healthy. There's even a chance we could beat GSW if Bledsoe or Blake get hurt. IF, Durant is on this team. So, I think that argument was pretty flawed. I'm worried about how big of a role it seems to have played. There are some decent points here, but I think it's also a flawed argument. This season wasn't the only D5 season. Let's rewind one year to the 2016 playoffs. Your Timberwolves were pumped 4-1 by the Warriors in the first round, albeit with a fairly different starting lineup, but that's not the point. The point is that the Thunder went to the D5 Finals, and they beat the Warriors (and my Nuggets) to get there. That was also their second appearance in the D5 Finals after making it there in the 2012 playoffs in the leagues inaugural season. It's very much up for debate who would have more success when comparing your teams. Using the word "indisputable" is a little disingenuous imo. Given that there is was no clear winner in the hypothetical debate between the two teams, I think we made the right choice to default back to OKC. I am not saying a word because I do not want to get banned again, but I have finally figured you out. |
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