Khris Middleton

[James Kay]

Current rating: 78
Suggested: 85


Literally the only shooter opposing teams have to guard on this Bucks team, and he's still shooting over 40% from three.

Averaging about 18/4/4 and only performing better and better as the season goes on.

Really increased his passing/play-making significantly this year. Super clutch, the Bucks go-to scorer, really solid defender, versatile player that can play the 2,3, or 4.

just saying:
www.basketball-reference.com/play-index/pcm_finder.cgi?request=1&sum=0&p1=middlkh01&y1=2016&p2=batumni01&y2=2016&p3=&p4=&p5=&p6=

less TOs, comparable assists, more steals (and I think better defense), better shooting(FG, 3PT, and FT), more scoring - and all this with more defensive pressure as he's the #1 option on the bucks.

[Deleted]

EDIT:

87. 

Too much of an all around player that plays near elite defense to vote much lower than this. This is my rating for Khris in a vacuum, for this to be accurate compared to his peers, I'd want a new thread on Jimmy Butler and I'd vote him a 92.

[Brandon Roy]

83

[Alex English]

83.

[Brian Scalabrine]

83 but willing to go higher later

[Kevin Hollis]

81

[Charles Barkley]

think Mccollum is better and McCollum is only a 78 now.

Something needs to be done with these SGs.

Think Middleton is an 82.5. Does it for the rest of this season and in the first month or so of next season, and Ill be ready to put him at an 85. Don't think he can go above that until he improves his defense and either starts passing more or grabs more boards. IMO 3 plus skills gets you above the 85, middleton right now has shooting from the field and 3.

[James Kay]

Feb 12, 2016 18:54:47 GMT Charles Barkley said:

think Mccollum is better and McCollum is only a 78 now.

Something needs to be done with these SGs.

Think Middleton is an 82.5. Does it for the rest of this season and in the first month or so of next season, and Ill be ready to put him at an 85. Don't think he can go above that until he improves his defense and either starts passing more or grabs more boards. IMO 3 plus skills gets you above the 85, middleton right now has shooting from the field and 3.

The thing is, this IS his next year. He finished (last 41 games)last year, the 14-15 season, scoring 16 points on super efficient shooting. This year he’s also started to facilitate – he’s top 10 in assists for SGs, and has the 3rd best AST/TO ratio of those top ten. And his defense is like the strongest part of his game. Last year he was a super solid 3 and D player, this year he’s added 2 assists per game, and more than doubled his trips to the FT line – at which he shoots an insanely high 87.3 percent.


He’s a 3 and D player who’s grown out of his role. He’s lead the Bucks in scoring for 2 seasons now, why does he have to wait to prove any longer?

And for what is worth McCollum does need to be higher. He just came out of nowhere this season (unlike Middleton) which explains his current low rating. McCollum needs to be like an 83 to Middleton’s 85. Why do you think McCollum is better? Their offensive stats are near identical save for McCollum scoring like 2 extra points, Middleton gets less turnovers and gets to the line more frequently. Plus Middleton is the better defender and doing all his work without the gravity of a shooter like Lillard, or frankly, any type of shooter.

[Deleted]

First off, he sucked for all of October through December, he could easily regress to those numbers after the break.

2nd, he leads the bucks in scoring because he is the only person that can shoot on the whole damn team. Their 2nd best shooter is fucking Rashad Vaughn lol.

[James Kay]

Feb 12, 2016 19:25:45 GMT @riogho said:

First off, he sucked for all of October through December, he could easily regress to those numbers after the break.

2nd, he leads the bucks in scoring because he is the only person that can shoot on the whole damn team. Their 2nd best shooter is fucking Rashad Vaughn lol.

First off, he didn’t, suck, at all.

From October through December, he averaged 16/3.4/3.6 on 43/46/88 efficiency.

Secondly, being the only shooter on your team doesn’t make it “easier” to score. We look at guys on top teams like Klay, Draymond, Kawhi, etc and ask how they would perform/how their efficiency would be affected on a bottom team without a top-tier surrounding cast. Well why isn’t Middleton getting credit for being able to lead his team in scoring on a high efficiency when he is the only shooter that opposing defenses need to focus on?

[Deleted]

Feb 12, 2016 19:37:04 GMT James Kay said:

Feb 12, 2016 19:25:45 GMT @riogho said:

First off, he sucked for all of October through December, he could easily regress to those numbers after the break.

2nd, he leads the bucks in scoring because he is the only person that can shoot on the whole damn team. Their 2nd best shooter is fucking Rashad Vaughn lol.

First off, he didn’t, suck, at all.

From October through December, he averaged 16/3.4/3.6 on 43/46/88 efficiency.

Secondly, being the only shooter on your team doesn’t make it “easier” to score. We look at guys on top teams like Klay, Draymond, Kawhi, etc and ask how they would perform/how their efficiency would be affected on a bottom team without a top-tier surrounding cast. Well why isn’t Middleton getting credit for being able to lead his team in scoring on a high efficiency when he is the only shooter that opposing defenses need to focus on?

I think he is a great scorer and very efficient but saying he is he highest scorer on his team two years in a row is a shittyargument when no one on the team can shoot.

[James Kay]

Feb 12, 2016 19:38:30 GMT @riogho said:

Feb 12, 2016 19:37:04 GMT James Kay said:

First off, he didn’t, suck, at all.

From October through December, he averaged 16/3.4/3.6 on 43/46/88 efficiency.

Secondly, being the only shooter on your team doesn’t make it “easier” to score. We look at guys on top teams like Klay, Draymond, Kawhi, etc and ask how they would perform/how their efficiency would be affected on a bottom team without a top-tier surrounding cast. Well why isn’t Middleton getting credit for being able to lead his team in scoring on a high efficiency when he is the only shooter that opposing defenses need to focus on?

I think he is a great scorer and very efficient but saying he is he highest scorer on his team two years in a row is a shittyargument when no one on the team can shoot.

It would be a shitty argument if he was shooting terribly to get there. But he has a TS% of 55.2 and I think that’s impressive when you take into context how much pressure he gets from opposing defenses.

Besides, that’s far from my only argument. I’ve already said he’s doubled his assist numbers, averaging 4 a game – top 10 in SGs for assists, 3rd best AST/TO ratio of those top 10. He’s really good defensively, and his scoring is icing on the cake with lights out shooting from behind the arc and getting to the line and converting at an impressive rate as well.

[Charles Barkley]

Feb 12, 2016 19:14:04 GMT James Kay said:

Feb 12, 2016 18:54:47 GMT Charles Barkley said:

think Mccollum is better and McCollum is only a 78 now.

Something needs to be done with these SGs.

Think Middleton is an 82.5. Does it for the rest of this season and in the first month or so of next season, and Ill be ready to put him at an 85. Don't think he can go above that until he improves his defense and either starts passing more or grabs more boards. IMO 3 plus skills gets you above the 85, middleton right now has shooting from the field and 3.

The thing is, this IS his next year. He finished (last 41 games)last year, the 14-15 season, scoring 16 points on super efficient shooting. This year he’s also started to facilitate – he’s top 10 in assists for SGs, and has the 3rd best AST/TO ratio of those top ten. And his defense is like the strongest part of his game. Last year he was a super solid 3 and D player, this year he’s added 2 assists per game, and more than doubled his trips to the FT line – at which he shoots an insanely high 87.3 percent.


He’s a 3 and D player who’s grown out of his role. He’s lead the Bucks in scoring for 2 seasons now, why does he have to wait to prove any longer?

And for what is worth McCollum does need to be higher. He just came out of nowhere this season (unlike Middleton) which explains his current low rating. McCollum needs to be like an 83 to Middleton’s 85. Why do you think McCollum is better? Their offensive stats are near identical save for McCollum scoring like 2 extra points, Middleton gets less turnovers and gets to the line more frequently. Plus Middleton is the better defender and doing all his work without the gravity of a shooter like Lillard, or frankly, any type of shooter.

I probably shouldn't have said McCollum is better. I think McCollum is having a better season.

When you look at Middleton, this isn't his NEXT year. He is a 78, he got that rating based off of what he did last season. Which was: 13.5 PPT, 4.4 RPG, 2.3 APG, 1.4TOV, 1.5 STL, on 46/40/85. 

This season, it is: 17.9 PPG, 3.8 RPG, 4.0APG, 2.1 TOV, 1.3 STL, on 43/40/87. 

Compared to McCollum, I think McCollum is having a better year this year. 

I don't think Middleton's improvements this season warrants a 7 point increase. I think an 85 is a big reach. To me, 85 is a threshold. At 85 and higher, that is All-Star caliber play on some levels. It is harder to break that threshold, than to fall out, which is why I am careful of who I put in there. 

McCollum is the only shooter on the Bucks squad, plain and simple. He is taking 3.4 more FG's this season and only making 1.1 more in 6.1 more minutes per game this year. On one hand, being the only shooter is a disadvantage, but on the other, when you look at the Bucks make-up, it is an advantage. The Bucks have Giannis, Monroe, and Jabari as well as Henson inside, clogging up defenders, and setting big screens, which allows more open shots than the norm for a player as the only shooter on a team. They have a lot of inside options that requires double teams, and it is bad defense and good ball movement that gets Middleton open looks. 

Beyond that, when I watch the Bucks, I don't see Middleton moving as much without the ball than say a guy like Bledsoe, who is excellent moving without the ball, or a Rip Hamilton, who was the king of moving without the ball on those Pistons teams that couldn't shoot for shit either. 

And, Middleton's defense is average. Let's not blow that out of proportion ok? Look at who else is on the floor with him: Monroe and Giannis. Two guys who play way above average defense. And, for some fuck reason, they like to put MCW on the 2nd best perimeter player if Giannis is guarding on the wing. It allows Middleton to not have to man up on a guy like Harden or DeMar DeRozan. 

All in all, I think Middleton is good. But, like I said, 7 points is a reach. I am careful who I vote above  an 85, for the reasons I mentioned above. 

This isn't his next season. If you want to say it is, Im still at an 82.5. Put up 20 a game on his shooting with 5 and 4, and I'll bump it up, with his defense and off the ball movement staying the same. Just needs better numbers, more substance from my viewpoint. 

Don't get me wrong, there's games where he looks like the best 2 guard in the NBA, but it isn't consistent enough and that reflects in his numbers, obviously. 

I am also taking in to consideration that their offense doesn't always flow thru him, they put a lot on MCW's shoulders, for some reason. And they like to get it inside and out on transition. 

7 point is a big reach. 

[Kareem Abdul-Jabbar]

83 ^^

[Ian Noble]

Middleton is producing like an 85 but, having watched a ton of Bucks games, I do feel like it's because he's with the Bucks and their system is just an every-man-for-himself shitstorm. On a different team I don't think he would look so impressive.

82

[Walt Frazier]

84

[Charles Barkley]

b2f

[Jeremiah Hill]

What does B2F mean?

[Walt Frazier]

Mar 4, 2016 1:08:05 GMT Jeremiah Hill said:

What does B2F mean?

Back 2 Front...basically since Charles closed a lot of threads he's bringing the ones that need votes "back to the front" so people see them.

[James Kay]

b2F again, Middleton stays killing it

[James Kay]

Bump bump bump. Tallied up now, Middleton would be only an 82. Putting up 19/4/4 on 43/41/88. And he is averaging identical assists and steals as Paul George on less turnovers.

[Hanamichi Sakuragi]

84

[Charles Barkley]

Mar 14, 2016 21:20:35 GMT James Kay said:

Bump bump bump. Tallied up now, Middleton would be only an 82. Putting up 19/4/4 on 43/41/88. And he is averaging identical assists and steals as Paul George on less turnovers.

The Bucks keep getting fucked in the SW. If Giannis and Middleton played on the Spurs, they'd be 90's. 

They play in a TERRIBLE system. With TERRIBLE players. It's like when LeBron first came in to the league and was playing with the likes of Ira Newble and Boobie Gibson. 


I am going to vote Middleton as an 84. Need to take the FG Shoot down, but bring 3PT shoot up. 

The reason I vote him as an 84 is because I feel like I know where the points need to go.

If you put Middleton and Giannis on a team with some outside threats and an average passing big, and they would light shit up even more.

[Charles Barkley]

Also, closing this thread at the same time I close the new Giannis.

3/15/16 at 11:00 PM EDT

Get your votes in.

We need to get these needed updates in as soon as possible.

[JR Wiles]

83

[Walt Frazier]

Updated my rating from 82.67 to an 84!

[Ian Noble]

84

Middleton's been underrated for too long.

[Deleted]

Aight he's done it long enough. Updated my OP.

EDIT:

87.

Too much of an all around player that plays near elite defense to vote much lower than this. This is my rating for Khris in a vacuum, for this to be accurate compared to his peers, I'd want a new thread on Jimmy Butler and I'd vote him a 92.

[James Kay]

Mar 15, 2016 17:32:15 GMT @riogho said:

Aight he's done it long enough. Updated my OP.

EDIT:

87.

Too much of an all around player that plays near elite defense to vote much lower than this. This is my rating for Khris in a vacuum, for this to be accurate compared to his peers, I'd want a new thread on Jimmy Butler and I'd vote him a 92.

Yeah, hopefully without de-railing this thread, I think there needs to be like an official announcement/endorsement of the idea that higher ratings generally reflect more well-roundedness. Before Walt started going in and tinkering with individual ratings, I, and I think most people in this league, saw ratings as more like “rankings.” Which they are absolutely not. So players like Draymond, Batum, Giannis, Butler, are going to command higher ratingsthan some players who may be better than them at many aspects of the game. Just off the top of my head – Drummond. Beast player that may be more valuable overall than someone like Batum but really has a very limited skill-set in which to apply ratings points. I just think there should be like an admin endorsed post that guides the D5 GM community into making accurate ratings. I feel that is where a lot of stock watch differences lie.

[Alex English]

Mar 15, 2016 17:32:15 GMT @riogho said:

87.

Too much of an all around player that plays near elite defense to vote much lower than this. This is my rating for Khris in a vacuum, for this to be accurate compared to his peers, I'd want a new thread on Jimmy Butler and I'd vote him a 92.

If Middleton is an 87, what's James Harden? A 90?

I think I'm done. This place has jumped the shark.