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Post by Deleted on Mar 15, 2016 18:10:22 GMT
87. Too much of an all around player that plays near elite defense to vote much lower than this. This is my rating for Khris in a vacuum, for this to be accurate compared to his peers, I'd want a new thread on Jimmy Butler and I'd vote him a 92. If Middleton is an 87, what's James Harden? A 90? I think I'm done. This place has jumped the shark. Yeah Harden is like a 90. |
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Post by Alex English on Mar 15, 2016 18:30:55 GMT
If Middleton is an 87, what's James Harden? A 90? I think I'm done. This place has jumped the shark. Yeah Harden is like a 90.  |
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Post by Deleted on Mar 15, 2016 18:43:21 GMT
Yeah Harden is like a 90. How many individual rating categories is he in the top 10% of the league in? Like the 3 scoring categories? How many is he below average at? I think it balances to a 90. Kris is much more rounded, and Butler id take over harden every day. |
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Post by James Kay on Mar 15, 2016 18:50:16 GMT
87. Too much of an all around player that plays near elite defense to vote much lower than this. This is my rating for Khris in a vacuum, for this to be accurate compared to his peers, I'd want a new thread on Jimmy Butler and I'd vote him a 92. If Middleton is an 87, what's James Harden? A 90? I think I'm done. This place has jumped the shark. How many individual rating categories is he in the top 10% of the league in? Like the 3 scoring categories? How many is he below average at? I think it balances to a 90. Kris is much more rounded, and Butler id take over harden every day. Lets not do this… Harden is clearly more than three ratings points above Middleton. He’s averaging ~29 points to Middleton’s ~19 and getting 7 assists per game. He creates his own shot and is probably the best player in the entire league at getting to the FT line. Middleton is a better shooter and defender, but Harden’s enormous strengths in other areas of the game are so very clearly more than three ratings points that I simply do not understand where Adam is coming from. But also, Alex, please. Adam’s Middleton rating is far from the most egregious you’ve seen in D5. |
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Post by Alex English on Mar 15, 2016 19:09:19 GMT
How many is he below average at? One. Defensive Awareness. You get that Harden also averages 7 assists and 6 rebounds? Plus 1.6 steals? Plus he's been doing the same thing for 4 years now? His boxscore basically looks the same as Lebron James. I'm not going to get into this again. You rate Harden based on what you feel he deserves, and no matter how much I try and describe what the stats show, and how good he is based on every measurement that exists, you're not going to change your mind. So whatever. As for Middleton, I bumped my rating up to 83. He's having a good season and he's a solid player to go with Giannis and Monroe. |
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Kevin Hollis
Former Thunder GM for 7 years
All Star
Posts: 2,838 
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Post by Kevin Hollis on Mar 15, 2016 20:36:47 GMT
How many is he below average at? One. Defensive Awareness. You get that Harden also averages 7 assists and 6 rebounds? Plus 1.6 steals? Plus he's been doing the same thing for 4 years now? His boxscore basically looks the same as Lebron James. I'm not going to get into this again. You rate Harden based on what you feel he deserves, and no matter how much I try and describe what the stats show, and how good he is based on every measurement that exists, you're not going to change your mind. So whatever. As for Middleton, I bumped my rating up to 83. He's having a good season and he's a solid player to go with Giannis and Monroe. I'm with you on this one Alex, for once. I think Middleton is being drastically overrated If people are giving him an 87. |
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Post by James Kay on Mar 15, 2016 20:41:44 GMT
One. Defensive Awareness. You get that Harden also averages 7 assists and 6 rebounds? Plus 1.6 steals? Plus he's been doing the same thing for 4 years now? His boxscore basically looks the same as Lebron James. I'm not going to get into this again. You rate Harden based on what you feel he deserves, and no matter how much I try and describe what the stats show, and how good he is based on every measurement that exists, you're not going to change your mind. So whatever. As for Middleton, I bumped my rating up to 83. He's having a good season and he's a solid player to go with Giannis and Monroe. I'm with you on this one Alex, for once. I think Middleton is being drastically overrated If people are giving him an 87. Lol only Adam voted 87! The next highest is my 85 and other people voted 84. Kevin you're actually the lowest at 81 |
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Post by Charles Barkley on Mar 18, 2016 21:41:01 GMT
Final vote on Middleton
83.6
84
Gavel
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Post by James Kay on Mar 24, 2016 22:04:51 GMT
Charles Barkley sooo what does gavel even mean? when do you anticipate these getting done?
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Post by Brian Scalabrine on Mar 25, 2016 0:29:37 GMT
Giannis 81, Middleton 84, Monroe 83, Jabari 81... 11th in the east Monroe needs to be lowered |
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Post by Alex English on Mar 25, 2016 0:46:00 GMT
It's disappointing that the loudest GMs can influence the league this much. I'm right on board with this. It's a big problem with the stock watch section. It's pretty easy to get a trend going when someone first posts a thread with their argument, then one of "the loudest GMs" comes in and makes an argument, then the next four or five posts are all just one number from people who seem to just follow the lead of the first few. Then if a few of those GMs agree on something, it's done. James Harden is officially the worst defender in history, and even though it's only one category in the ratings, he needs as many as 5 points hacked off his overall according to some. A few key GMs are part of that group though so now he's going to be worse than a pylon in this league. All stats be damned. In general, our ratings are influenced too much by hype and media coverage. We're not objective or critical enough. |
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Post by Alex English on Mar 25, 2016 0:50:38 GMT
As for the actual Bucks players, eh, it's not too bad. Middleton at an 84 is a little much, we gave DeMar an 85, and he's way better. I voted 83 being a slightly generous I guess. He should be between 82-83 for me. I'm fine with Giannis and Monroe being 83s. Parker needs a decrease out of the 80s. I'd give him a 79. Seriously, how is he still rated above Wiggins?
So a team with three 83s and no one else in the 80s? I could see them being 30-42 considering they're underachieving this year. They were 41-41 last year, and most people are disappointed with how the Bucks have been.
Compare the real life Bucks with the D5 Pelicans, they're kinda similar in terms of ratings and performance. The Rockets also, they have an 88 rated player and an 85 yet they're just 18-32. Compare with the D5 Pistons, and Miami Heat too. I don't think the real life Bucks are hugely overrated in here.
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Glenn Robinson
 Milwaukee Bucks
Starter
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Post by Glenn Robinson on Mar 25, 2016 0:50:40 GMT
Have we always had this much fluctuation with ratings before? I don't recall when we first started this league, having so many stock watch threads and consistently increasing or decreasing players throughout a season. I'm all for trying to get the most accurate ratings, but I think we all suffer too much from "What have you done for me lately."
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Post by James Kay on Mar 25, 2016 3:33:29 GMT
As for the actual Bucks players, eh, it's not too bad. Middleton at an 84 is a little much, we gave DeMar an 85, and he's way better. I voted 83 being a slightly generous I guess. He should be between 82-83 for me. I'm fine with Giannis and Monroe being 83s. Parker needs a decrease out of the 80s. I'd give him a 79. Seriously, how is he still rated above Wiggins? So a team with three 83s and no one else in the 80s? I could see them being 30-42 considering they're underachieving this year. They were 41-41 last year, and most people are disappointed with how the Bucks have been. Compare the real life Bucks with the D5 Pelicans, they're kinda similar in terms of ratings and performance. The Rockets also, they have an 88 rated player and an 85 yet they're just 18-32. Compare with the D5 Pistons, and Miami Heat too. I don't think the real life Bucks are hugely overrated in here. Is Demar really "way better?" Out of Middleton and DeMar, who averages the most assists? The least turnovers? The most steals? The best three-point percentage? The best free throw percentage? Middleton. Now I'm not saying he's better than Derozan just because of those, but he pretty clearly is more well-rounded and that demands more rating points. But your other points are absolutely correct. The Bucks this year had zero-spacing, poor rim protection and effort from Monroe, and started MCW as their PG for most the season. Also, FWIW, Middleton's RPM ranking is still really high (#25 overall) and he is actually averaging more assists than Giannis on the season. |
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Post by James Kay on Mar 25, 2016 3:42:57 GMT
Also, you guys can tear me apart for this if you'd like, but Middleton's stats are remarkably similar to Jimmy Butler's last season (2014-2015) ComparisonAnd at the end of that season you guys were going nuts over Butler. |
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Post by Hanamichi Sakuragi on Mar 25, 2016 3:51:56 GMT
Teams doesn't succeed just by accumulating great players. It's a team game, for damn sake!
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Post by Alex English on Mar 25, 2016 5:03:41 GMT
James Kay I get that listing stat categories one guy does better than another guy is one of your favourite things to do, but it's basically the definition of cherry picking. Look: None of that gives the full picture. Just consider their full stat line: DeRozan: 23.7 ppg, 4.4 rpg, 3.9 apg, 1.0 spg, 0.3 bpg, 44.3 FG%, 32.3 3P%, 84.4 FT%, 21.4 PER Middleton: 18.3 ppg, 3.8 rpg, 4.2 apg, 1.7 spg, 0.2 bpg, 43.8 FG%, 40.5 3P%, 88.1 FT%, 16.7 PER Then consider that 56.0% of Middleton's field goals are assisted compared to just 29.8% of DeRozan's. So he's creating his own offense while Middleton benefits from his teammates play making. Then consider that Middleton is the 2nd best player on a team with a record of 30-42, while DeRozan is the 2nd best player on a team with a record of 48-22. So DeRozan helps his team win while Middleton benefits from having a big role on a shitty team. Then consider that Middleton has made a huge jump this year and is having the best year of his career while DeRozan has been just about as good for the last three years. So yeah, DeRozan is way better.
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Post by James Kay on Mar 25, 2016 13:30:44 GMT
James Kay I get that listing stat categories one guy does better than another guy is one of your favourite things to do, but it's basically the definition of cherry picking. Look: None of that gives the full picture. Just consider their full stat line: DeRozan: 23.7 ppg, 4.4 rpg, 3.9 apg, 1.0 spg, 0.3 bpg, 44.3 FG%, 32.3 3P%, 84.4 FT%, 21.4 PER Middleton: 18.3 ppg, 3.8 rpg, 4.2 apg, 1.7 spg, 0.2 bpg, 43.8 FG%, 40.5 3P%, 88.1 FT%, 16.7 PER Then consider that 56.0% of Middleton's field goals are assisted compared to just 29.8% of DeRozan's. So he's creating his own offense while Middleton benefits from his teammates play making. Then consider that Middleton is the 2nd best player on a team with a record of 30-42, while DeRozan is the 2nd best player on a team with a record of 48-22. So DeRozan helps his team win while Middleton benefits from having a big role on a shitty team. Then consider that Middleton has made a huge jump this year and is having the best year of his career while DeRozan has been just about as good for the last three years. So yeah, DeRozan is way better. Lol… first of all. I never made the argument that Middleton is better. I simply gave certain stats to show how Middleton was pretty objectively better in certain aspects of the game. Thereby demanding more rating points because of his well-rounded talent. They were cherry picked…. That was the whole point. And I didn’t mention all those things because they can be easily twisted to support whichever argument you’re making. Consider that 56.0% of Middleton's field goals are assisted compared to just 29.8% of DeRozan's. Middleton is a better off-ball player because he’s the better shooter? Derozan is a ball stopper? I value Derozan’s ability to generate his own offense, though. I’m not arguing that Middleton is better. Consider that Middleton is the 2nd best player on a team with a record of 30-42, while DeRozan is the 2nd best player on a team with a record of 48-22. Yeah… this was the most egregious. First, that’s assuming Giannis is their best player – I don’t agree, but whatever. Having Lowry as your fellow guard to provide actual spacing and draw defensive attention from anywhere on the court is a much greater benefit than having a “bigger role on a shitty team.” Like that statement is such a joke – Derozan has a usage rate of 30 while Middleton is at 22. So who is benefitting from the “bigger role?” Seems like your only using the stats that fit your narrative too, huh. It’s more impressive to me that Middleton is shooting the way he is on such a shitty team. “Empty” stats are usually inefficient scoring and rebounding numbers that are available on “shitty teams.” Middleton’s best contributions are neither of those. His defense, playmaking, and efficient shooting are outliers on a team with zero spacing. Then consider that Middleton has made a huge jump this year and is having the best year of his career while DeRozan has been just about as good for the last three years. Derozan is scoring a career high, while basically putting up his best assist and rebound numbers as well. His FG% is the highest it’s been since 2012. He’s not making the same jump as Middleton, but of course Middleton made a huge jump (which he is carrying over from the 2nd half of last season actually, when he averaged ~16/5/3 on 48/40/88 through 41 games). He’s younger and still improving. This isn’t like some 30-31 year player is suddenly inexplicably having a great year like you’re treating it. The stat-lines you posted - the only difference I see is a very small difference in FG%(advantage Derozan), a huge difference in 3P%(advantage Middleton), a decent gap in rebounding(advantage Derozan), and a significant difference in steal numbers (advantage Middleton). How are you using those stat-lines to say Derozan is “way” better? And lastly, its not even about who is “way” better. Middleton has an entire skill in his three point shooting that Derozan just lacks. And is a better defender. Middleton’s more diverse game leads to his rating points being similar to Derozan. |
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Post by Charles Barkley on Mar 25, 2016 19:20:23 GMT
Charles Barkley sooo what does gavel even mean? when do you anticipate these getting done? Gavel means the voting has closed. We are currently working on implementing one batch of ratings. We have discussed them and they are awaiting Walt to implement them, and then Ian needs to upload it once he gets the go ahead from Walt. Giannis and Middleton are in the following batch. We hope to get the ratings that I just closed, plus this next batch, in before the playoffs start. Its about 55 players being changed. And we only do about 11 or 12 a batch. |
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Post by Charles Barkley on Mar 25, 2016 19:21:27 GMT
84 is a joke. Between how people in this league rate Giannis and Middleton, you'd think the Bucks were the Warriors. But instead they can't even make the playoffs in a weak East. Middleton and Giannis neither should be above an 80. It's disappointing that the loudest GMs can influence the league this much. Let me get my margarita out to get some of that salt. |
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Post by Charles Barkley on Mar 25, 2016 19:27:09 GMT
Which GMs are "loud"?
Look at the stock watch threads that are posted. Everyone here has a vote, and only one vote. Regardless of if I vote an 88 on Middleton or a 79, its just one vote. No one has to listen to me.
Everyone participates a good amount in the SW. Some just put up a number in the thread, and that kind of annoys me when they repeatedly do it without ever explaining their thinking.
The fact of the matter is that if I think a player is an 88, I can go find any number of stats out their to prove it. Or if I want to lower someone, there's tons of stats out there to prove that as well. The use of statistics can go either way, it really just depends on who wants to make the argument about it.
But it goes back to having one vote. Even if I argue about James Harden's defense, its still only 1 vote. Do people listen to what I have to say? I guess that is what you guys are getting at. But people also listen to what you have to say as well.
And if people agreed with you more, you'd have more people voting on things that you are in line with. So I make an argument about how Harden's defense is bad. Scal follows because he agrees. And Jeremiah follows because he also agrees. Well, these guys wouldn't be following if they didn't agree with what I had to say.
Its like politics. Bernie Sanders can go out there and talk and talk and talk, but if no one agrees with what he has to say, no one will vote for him.
Who cares about the loudest GMs. You wouldn't be mentioning this if people didn't agree with what we had to say.
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Post by Charles Barkley on Mar 25, 2016 19:29:16 GMT
Have we always had this much fluctuation with ratings before? I don't recall when we first started this league, having so many stock watch threads and consistently increasing or decreasing players throughout a season. I'm all for trying to get the most accurate ratings, but I think we all suffer too much from "What have you done for me lately." ... to build on this, Middleton really did not have a good first half of the season. Same with Giannis. We have a lot of recency bias going on in our ratings right now Shouldn't our ratings reflect recency? Or should our ratings just sit stagnant in the past and have Kobe be an 88 forever? What do you want? Giannis is playing out of his mind in the month of March, and since the All-Star break, should he not be rewarded for this? |
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Post by Walt Frazier on Mar 26, 2016 22:14:56 GMT
... to build on this, Middleton really did not have a good first half of the season. Same with Giannis. We have a lot of recency bias going on in our ratings right now Shouldn't our ratings reflect recency? Or should our ratings just sit stagnant in the past and have Kobe be an 88 forever? What do you want? Giannis is playing out of his mind in the month of March, and since the All-Star break, should he not be rewarded for this? I think there may be a middle ground here. And I think Barber is overstating it a bit, but every once in a while there are threads that go up after a week or two of games (Lillard recently, for example) that just aren't needed. If Lillard was a 77 and he was putting up temporary 89 numbers, then put it up and at least get him a few points. But he was an 87 going for 89 or something like that and just didn't do it long enough, and/or didn't warrant it. I think overall we're on a better path than we used to be. And, to defend my RC guys, we have had a few others on that committee who just didn't contribute enough, if anything. We need the hyper active if we're going to have any chance of making these changes happen. Even with that, it's slower than I want it to be, because my time is short lately. It's on my mind, I really can't promise more than that, but I want these done as much as anyone and even if I just plug away at them 2 here and 2 there, I'm thinking about it and doing the best I can, same as the rest of the RC. |
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Kevin Hollis
Former Thunder GM for 7 years
All Star
Posts: 2,838
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Post by Kevin Hollis on Jul 24, 2016 12:37:58 GMT
I believe this thread is closed. Archive. Ian Noble |
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