Kawhi Leonard

[Hanamichi Sakuragi]

He just receive his increase but I consider him a special case so let me start a new thread for him.

Let us start by the numbers:
2013-2014: 12.8 points, 6.2 rebounds, 2.0 assists, 1.7 steals
2014-2015: 15.8 points, 7.8 rebounds, 2.5 assists, 2.0 steals 

then please read this article. Kawhi Leonard's Worth Becoming Crystal Clear for San Antonio Spurs 
That article clearly explains how important Leonard is to the Spurs which is the reigning champ in the NBA.

I know that a lot of us love numbers but there are things that are not measured easily that we must also reflect in the game.

Some excerpts from the article...

Just seven players under the age of 23 have ever averaged at least 12.5 points, 6.0 rebounds, 2.0 assists and 1.5 steals on 50 percent shooting for an entire season: Charles Barkley, Terry Cummings, Marques Johnson, Clark Kellogg, Magic Johnson, Michael Jordan and Leonard himself....

Only recently has Leonard's role undergone a transformative change in function. He's missed 18 games this season, and the Spurs have struggled in his absence—struggled in the sense that a 9-9 record without him isn't good enough. And, in the callously constructed Western Conference, it's not.



"It also dovetails nicely with what we can see with our own eyes, both on the court and in the standings," writes the San Antonio Express-News' Dan McCarney. "Kawhi Leonard is pretty important to the San Antonio Spurs."



Pretty important is an understatement.



Wins and losses aren't the only criteria by which Leonard should be measured. This season isn't especially out of the ordinary on that front. The Spurs are 115-34 with Leonard since he entered the league, compared to 32-26 without him, per McCarney.



They've just been a different team without him this season.

If his current marks hold, Leonard will become just the third player under the age of 24 to simultaneously average at least 15.0 points, 7.5 rebounds, 2.0 assists and 2.0 steals, joining the ranks of Johnson and Barkley.


Going with 88
bulk of it should be on DA and OA 

[Deleted]

86.

[Kareem Abdul-Jabbar]

87 ^^

[Brian Scalabrine]

15 and 8 isn't an 88 or an 87 imo this is kinda crazy. I'll go 84

[Alex English]

Are you guys crazy? Kawhi is fine where he is, and he definitely does not deserve an increase into the high 80s. Also the Bleacher Report is trash and shouldn't be used as evidence.

His current rating is 82.

82 x 4 = 328
328 - 88 - 87 - 86 = 67

I vote that Kawhi gets a 67 rating. I have to cancel out this nonsense.

Edit: Fuck, this doesn't even work since my vote just won't count. You guys are so far off it's insane.

My real vote is 82.

[Larry Bird]

Kwahi Leonard is a top 5 SF in the game.

1. Kevin Durant 97
1. LeBron James 99
3. Carmelo Anthony 92
4. Kwahi Leonard 82

How big of a gap is there really between Anthony and Leonard?

[Deleted]

Not a huge one. But, I believe Melo should be <90, and Leonard as well. But the gap is almost nonexistant in win share, but their games are very different.

[Chris Mullin]

IMO Kawhi is fine where hes at for right now. ^^ I agree with what Alex said.

82

Carmelo averages almost 10 ppg more than Leonard, IMO that is a pretty significant difference and should be reflected in his rating

[Deleted]

Jan 22, 2015 17:15:29 GMT Chris Mullin said:

IMO Kawhi is fine where hes at for right now. ^^ I agree with what Alex said.

82

Carmelo averages almost 10 ppg more than Leonard, IMO that is a pretty significant difference and should be reflected in his rating

But how many more points does Carmelo allow the dude he is guarding a game vs leonard? I bet its pretty close to 10.

[James Kay]

Jan 22, 2015 16:04:19 GMT Alex English said:

Are you guys crazy? Kawhi is fine where he is, and he definitely does not deserve an increase into the high 80s. Also the Bleacher Report is trash and shouldn't be used as evidence.

His current rating is 82.

82 x 4 = 328
328 - 88 - 87 - 86 = 67

I vote that Kawhi gets a 67 rating. I have to cancel out this nonsense.

Edit: Fuck, this doesn't even work since my vote just won't count. You guys are so far off it's insane.

My real vote is 82.

Im gonna get some shit for saying this but I think Kawhi is just about as good as Paul George. PG may have a slight slight edge on him now, but I think its really close and I definitely believe Kawhi will be the better player in the future.

86

[Magic Johnson]

if Leonard gets an 88 then Jimmy Butler better get a 95.

[Deleted]

83

[Charles Barkley]

82

[Brian Scalabrine]

Changing my vote to 82 actually

[Andrei Kirilenko]

I don't think Kawhi is that good. That's like calling DeMarre Carroll an 88.

82

[Deleted]

Jan 22, 2015 22:53:36 GMT Andrei Kirilenko said:

I don't think Kawhi is that good. That's like calling DeMarre Carroll an 88.

82

If the Hawks make the finals, I would bet you a hundred dollars that Carroll doesn't win Finals MVP.

[Andrei Kirilenko]

What did you think the NBA is gonna do, give MVP to a 35 year old Duncan or Parker? No, they are going to try to create a new young superstar. More stars = more $$$

[Charles Barkley]

Hes literally barely played this year, and we just raised him

[Mike Krzyzewski]

82

[Hanamichi Sakuragi]

that raise was due to last year's performance..

come on guys.. read the article.. it is also base on numbers.

[Alex English]

Jan 23, 2015 0:39:19 GMT Hanamichi Sakuragi said:

that raise was due to last year's performance..

come on guys.. read the article.. it is also base on numbers.

The article sucks. The only real argument is about how the Spurs have played much worse in Leonard's absence going 18-7 with him and 9-9 without him. Then they show the difference in offensive and defensive efficiency with and without him.

But unlike what Bleacher Report says here, correlation does not equal causation. Tony Parker has also missed extended time. The Spurs have gone 20-9 with him and 7-7 without him. Also interestingly (or not) Parker was absent for 9 of the 18 games Leonard was absent for.

Between Dec 9 and Dec 30 the Spurs played 13 games and they went 4-9. There wasn't one of those game where the Spurs dressed all 4 of their stars. Outside of that span the Spurs have a record of 23-7. Why have they attributed that entire difference to only Kawhi when Parker missed the majority of those games as well and Duncan and Ginobili missed a couple themselves.

Now Kawhi is a fantastic defensive player, but offensively he is actually just average. They talk about how his points per game and usage percentage are at career high levels, but they don't mention that he's averaging career lows in field goal percentage and three point percentage. Likely a result of the increase in volume.

He also isn't very good at creating his own offense. 63% of his made field goals are assisted. Compare that with Tony Parker, who's percentage of assisted field goals is 35%, and have a look at some of the league's best scorers:

% assisted - player
26.2% - James Harden
38.4% - Lebron James
53.0% - Kevin Durant
24.2% - Russell Westbrook
45.2% - Carmelo Anthony
41.0% - Stephen Curry
36.6% - Damian Lillard

The only one anywhere near him is Durant. Kawhi is the product of the Spurs offense, not the producer of it. Tony Parker is actually the engine that runs the Spurs. As he goes, they will go.

I do think Kawhi will be a very good player and deserving of more than an 82 rating, but I just don't see it yet. Similar to Rondo in Boston, I don't think we will see what Kawhi is truly made of until the Spurs big 3 are all gone. Rondo has shown that he isn't actually the elite point guard he was portrayed to be and that his awful shooting ability was hidden playing with Garnett, Pierce and Allen. Likewise we'll have to wait and see with Kawhi.

[Hanamichi Sakuragi]

Jan 23, 2015 2:52:57 GMT Alex English said:

Jan 23, 2015 0:39:19 GMT Hanamichi Sakuragi said:

that raise was due to last year's performance..

come on guys.. read the article.. it is also base on numbers.

The article sucks. The only real argument is about how the Spurs have played much worse in Leonard's absence going 18-7 with him and 9-9 without him. Then they show the difference in offensive and defensive efficiency with and without him.

But unlike what Bleacher Report says here, correlation does not equal causation. Tony Parker has also missed extended time. The Spurs have gone 20-9 with him and 7-7 without him. Also interestingly (or not) Parker was absent for 9 of the 18 games Leonard was absent for.

Between Dec 9 and Dec 30 the Spurs played 13 games and they went 4-9. There wasn't one of those game where the Spurs dressed all 4 of their stars. Outside of that span the Spurs have a record of 23-7. Why have they attributed that entire difference to only Kawhi when Parker missed the majority of those games as well and Duncan and Ginobili missed a couple themselves.

Now Kawhi is a fantastic defensive player, but offensively he is actually just average. They talk about how his points per game and usage percentage are at career high levels, but they don't mention that he's averaging career lows in field goal percentage and three point percentage. Likely a result of the increase in volume.

He also isn't very good at creating his own offense. 63% of his made field goals are assisted. Compare that with Tony Parker, who's percentage of assisted field goals is 35%, and have a look at some of the league's best scorers:

% assisted - player
26.2% - James Harden
38.4% - Lebron James
53.0% - Kevin Durant
24.2% - Russell Westbrook
45.2% - Carmelo Anthony
41.0% - Stephen Curry
36.6% - Damian Lillard

The only one anywhere near him is Durant. Kawhi is the product of the Spurs offense, not the producer of it. Tony Parker is actually the engine that runs the Spurs. As he goes, they will go.

I do think Kawhi will be a very good player and deserving of more than an 82 rating, but I just don't see it yet. Similar to Rondo in Boston, I don't think we will see what Kawhi is truly made of until the Spurs big 3 are all gone. Rondo has shown that he isn't actually the elite point guard he was portrayed to be and that his awful shooting ability was hidden playing with Garnett, Pierce and Allen. Likewise we'll have to wait and see with Kawhi.

there are more into the article than that.. but that fact alone should warrant an increase from 82. The defending champion REALLY SUCKS without him.. His numbers does not show that but that fact can be put into the game I believe.

[Kevin Hollis]

82. Ratings are starting to go crazy.

[Walt Frazier]

I think we may need to put a limit on number of times a player can have a thread posted for them in a season, as well as how close together threads can be put up for a player.

I do understand that a lot of Kawhi's votes were from the end of last season, but #1 - not much has changed since then, especially with him missing nearly half of his team's games so far, and #2 - everyone could have still voted on Kawhi's old thread up until about a week, or maybe 2 weeks ago.

Literally nothing has changed since his thread closed.

This is also in relation to the Anthony Davis thread. We had 2 threads on him since the end of last season (when we took him up to an 87) and we just closed those and took him to a 92! Yes the dude is awesome, but damn! There is much too much for the Ratings Committee to take care of for us to be babysitting ratings and changing a player 3-4 times a season.

We'll come up with an official ruling on this, but for now, instead of focusing on a player who just got a rating overhaul and selective attention, go find players that may not have been changed on awhile. That would be much more helpful for the health of the league.

[Hanamichi Sakuragi]

bump

[Sam Bowie]

84 sounds good. I think (with some +/- in certain stats and considering his great defense) Leonard is doing what some ex 83/86 rated players used to do.

[Hanamichi Sakuragi]

grantland.com/the-triangle/claw-school-kawhi-leonards-defensive-master-class/

come on guys! open your mind.

[Ghazny Dimalen]

82

[Charles Barkley]

His FG% and 3PT% have declined this year, with more shot attempts from each of those areas. He's a 16 and 7 guy right now with 2 assists.

He's not some sort of supreme being you're making him out to be Sakuragi. He plays really good perimeter defense, and at this point in the NBA, in order to start on the wing, you have to be able to play really good perimeter defense. Sure some teams don't buy into this motto, but if they had a strong perimeter defender they'd chose him over the guy who is a defensive sieve.

[Charles Barkley]

Mar 26, 2015 15:11:26 GMT Hanamichi Sakuragi said:

grantland.com/the-triangle/claw-school-kawhi-leonards-defensive-master-class/

come on guys! open your mind.





Also, why not form your own point of view on this subject and make some analysis or some sort of points of your own rather than just post articles for us to read. Form your own, original thought on the subject and post it. No one wants to have to read a long ass article written by some dude no one has ever heard of. Have the time, those guys writing the articles, especially articles like the one you just posted, aren't given an assignment, they just write about whatever they want to write about and they pick their favorite shit, because in the end they are fan-boys. I'm not talking about Simmons or Lowe here either.