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Post by Clyde Drexler on Jan 11, 2015 23:41:02 GMT
Josh Barber A.K.A. Batman! I was thinking Darkwing Duck if you know who that is. Batman would be the hero this league deserves, but not the one it needs right now. |
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Post by Charles Barkley on Jan 11, 2015 23:45:20 GMT
I was thinking Darkwing Duck if you know who that is. Batman would be the hero this league deserves, but not the one it needs right now. Dude, spoilers. Ruined the movie for me, thanks. |
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Post by Walt Frazier on Jan 11, 2015 23:54:17 GMT
So many, many things to say here. I am not even going to try and say them all.
Barber - One of the reasons there are only 9 players rated above Love is YOU. Love is OK at an 89. But Curry should be higher, but you want to keep him down too. There are other player like Curry who you really want to keep down but, as Alex (and Ian) has pointed out, our ratings are very similar to when this league started. They've actually gone slightly down.
As for Love, I think there is actually room to modify his rating. If the Database that Ian allows the RC access to is updated and correct, Love actually has a 70 for his D Aware right now. We could lower that and spread some of those points around. His Stamina (80), Strength (80), Inside (80 - but just slightly), possibly even FG (77) could all use some boosts.
Maybe that pleases everyone? If you think Love is a horrible defender, we lower his D stats and spread them places where he has room to grow. Even his Injury (75) rating could be higher now that he's proven himself recovered from those injuries 2-3 years ago.
My official vote for now is that we shouldn't vote yet. Some players are in unique situations. Love has proven himself for years to be what he is. One of the best offensive big men in the league, and not a good defender. Also one of the best rebounders in the league. Let's let him still be who he still is.
If I have to vote I'll put in what I've always put in, which was over a 90, so I'm not gonna vote just yet b/c I think we should be waiting!
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Post by Clyde Drexler on Jan 12, 2015 3:41:20 GMT
I also think we should wait on Love, and I was someone who didn't think Love deserved an 89 in the first place.
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Kevin Hollis
Former Thunder GM for 7 years
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Post by Kevin Hollis on Jan 12, 2015 6:54:27 GMT
Honestly, if we are basing his rating on his defense to improve, it won't happen. His defense is just god awful. Let's people take uncontested shots 3/4 of the time. I do not think Love is a top 10 player though and there is no way on this earth that he should be rated higher than cousins.
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Kevin Hollis
Former Thunder GM for 7 years
All Star
Posts: 2,838
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Post by Kevin Hollis on Jan 12, 2015 6:57:01 GMT
The above post doesn't change my stance, I am still willing to wait awhile before a change. I am just saying his defense will never get better. That was very apparent tonight.
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Post by Jeremiah Hill on Jan 13, 2015 17:21:24 GMT
I have to assume Kevin Loves shitty defense is already in his rating. He's gonna have a 99 in rebounding and pretty decent offensive skillset so he can be an 89 with bad defense thats fine. You can't program the computer to make him not try at all so I guess thats out of the question. Its why I didn't put a rating if I remember.
If Vlade thinks Bosh's D is bad do his eyes bleed when he watches Kevin Love? Mine do.
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Post by Deleted on Jan 13, 2015 18:23:23 GMT
I have to assume Kevin Loves shitty defense is already in his rating. He's gonna have a 99 in rebounding and pretty decent offensive skillset so he can be an 89 with bad defense thats fine. You can't program the computer to make him not try at all so I guess thats out of the question. Its why I didn't put a rating if I remember. If Vlade thinks Bosh's D is bad do his eyes bleed when he watches Kevin Love? Mine do. No, because his problems on defense steam from the fact that he can't jump. Honestly, he gets pretty good position on defense and I think could guard Hibbert, West, or Zbo better than Bosh...then again he might struggle more against someone like Blake Griffin or Anthony Davis. |
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Post by Alex English on Jan 13, 2015 19:16:21 GMT
I have to assume Kevin Loves shitty defense is already in his rating. He's gonna have a 99 in rebounding and pretty decent offensive skillset so he can be an 89 with bad defense thats fine. You can't program the computer to make him not try at all so I guess thats out of the question. Its why I didn't put a rating if I remember. If Vlade thinks Bosh's D is bad do his eyes bleed when he watches Kevin Love? Mine do. No, because his problems on defense steam from the fact that he can't jump. Honestly, he gets pretty good position on defense and I think could guard Hibbert, West, or Zbo better than Bosh...then again he might struggle more against someone like Blake Griffin or Anthony Davis. Kevin Love is actually pretty athletic. I think this is the classic white guy prejudice. His max vert at his rookie combine was 35 inches. That was better than some 'more athletic' big men Javale McGee (32.5 max vert) and DeAndre Jordan (30.5). He also matches up with some wings and guards. Michael Beasley had a 35 inch vert, Ty Lawson had a 35 inch vert, Russell Westbrook had a 36.5 inch vert. He also had a better time in the agility test than Jerryd Bayless, DJ Augustin, and Derrick Rose. He also had better sprint times than Michael Beasley, Javale McGee and Deandre Jordan. That's just within his own draft class. Love had a better sprint time than Blake Griffin and almost the same max vert (Griffin had 35.5 inch vert). |
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Kevin Hollis
Former Thunder GM for 7 years
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Post by Kevin Hollis on Jan 13, 2015 19:41:41 GMT
No, because his problems on defense steam from the fact that he can't jump. Honestly, he gets pretty good position on defense and I think could guard Hibbert, West, or Zbo better than Bosh...then again he might struggle more against someone like Blake Griffin or Anthony Davis. Kevin Love is actually pretty athletic. I think this is the classic white guy prejudice. His max vert at his rookie combine was 35 inches. That was better than some 'more athletic' big men Javale McGee (32.5 max vert) and DeAndre Jordan (30.5). He also matches up with some wings and guards. Michael Beasley had a 35 inch vert, Ty Lawson had a 35 inch vert, Russell Westbrook had a 36.5 inch vert. He also had a better time in the agility test than Jerryd Bayless, DJ Augustin, and Derrick Rose. He also had better sprint times than Michael Beasley, Javale McGee and Deandre Jordan. That's just within his own draft class. Love had a better sprint time than Blake Griffin and almost the same max vert (Griffin had 35.5 inch vert). Too bad they don't have a combine test for defense; he would have came in last. |
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Post by Charles Barkley on Jan 13, 2015 21:49:25 GMT
Maybe his defense is just bad because he played in a system, Minnesota, that didn't teach any defense at all. All they taught was getting out and scoring fast break baskets. I think his defense will improve this year. Not to the point where he is a good defender or even an average defender, but I think it will improve.
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Post by Charles Barkley on Jan 13, 2015 21:50:58 GMT
I do not think Love is a top 10 player though and there is no way on this earth that he should be rated higher than cousins. Try to not compare players when one is obviously seriously underrated (Cousins). I do think Love is a top 10 -ish player even with his bad defense. |
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Post by Deleted on Jan 13, 2015 21:53:10 GMT
No, because his problems on defense steam from the fact that he can't jump. Honestly, he gets pretty good position on defense and I think could guard Hibbert, West, or Zbo better than Bosh...then again he might struggle more against someone like Blake Griffin or Anthony Davis. Kevin Love is actually pretty athletic. I think this is the classic white guy prejudice. His max vert at his rookie combine was 35 inches. That was better than some 'more athletic' big men Javale McGee (32.5 max vert) and DeAndre Jordan (30.5). He also matches up with some wings and guards. Michael Beasley had a 35 inch vert, Ty Lawson had a 35 inch vert, Russell Westbrook had a 36.5 inch vert. He also had a better time in the agility test than Jerryd Bayless, DJ Augustin, and Derrick Rose. He also had better sprint times than Michael Beasley, Javale McGee and Deandre Jordan. That's just within his own draft class. Love had a better sprint time than Blake Griffin and almost the same max vert (Griffin had 35.5 inch vert). #1: Sprinting and jumping are two different things. I am not sure whether your statistics are correct or not but in high school I was 5'10 220 and could run a 4.7 with a vertical of not much. Love used to be a bigger guy in college so maybe he could/can run fast. #2: With that said, however, Kevin Love can not jump. I watched Cleveland play Golden State during Muzgov's first game with them and Love put an AWESOME post on 6'7 Draymond Green. Green stuffed him at the end of the move because HE CANNOT JUMP. |
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Post by Charles Barkley on Jan 13, 2015 21:58:49 GMT
Kevin Love is actually pretty athletic. I think this is the classic white guy prejudice. His max vert at his rookie combine was 35 inches. That was better than some 'more athletic' big men Javale McGee (32.5 max vert) and DeAndre Jordan (30.5). He also matches up with some wings and guards. Michael Beasley had a 35 inch vert, Ty Lawson had a 35 inch vert, Russell Westbrook had a 36.5 inch vert. He also had a better time in the agility test than Jerryd Bayless, DJ Augustin, and Derrick Rose. He also had better sprint times than Michael Beasley, Javale McGee and Deandre Jordan. That's just within his own draft class. Love had a better sprint time than Blake Griffin and almost the same max vert (Griffin had 35.5 inch vert). #1: Sprinting and jumping are two different things. I am not sure whether your statistics are correct or not but in high school I was 5'10 220 and could run a 4.7 with a vertical of not much. Love used to be a bigger guy in college so maybe he could/can run fast. #2: With that said, however, Kevin Love can not jump. I watched Cleveland play Golden State during Muzgov's first game with them and Love put an AWESOME post on 6'7 Draymond Green. Green stuffed him at the end of the move because HE CANNOT JUMP. Draymond Green is also very good. His Jumping attribute is already at a 32... Which is one of the lowest I've seen since doing these rating changes. Like, probably THE lowest. |
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Post by Deleted on Jan 13, 2015 21:59:03 GMT
Maybe his defense is just bad because he played in a system, Minnesota, that didn't teach any defense at all. All they taught was getting out and scoring fast break baskets. I think his defense will improve this year. Not to the point where he is a good defender or even an average defender, but I think it will improve. We asking if he's top 10 and the answer is no, not even close. Let me just name some players who are clearly better than him. Lebron Durant Westbrook Griffin Harden Curry Anthony Davis Dwight John Wall Paul Out of the players on my list, 7 of them are perimeter players and the next 10 might be PGs. Therefore, he might be a top 10 BIG MAN but that's not saying a lot in a guard-heavy league. |
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Post by Deleted on Jan 13, 2015 22:00:22 GMT
#1: Sprinting and jumping are two different things. I am not sure whether your statistics are correct or not but in high school I was 5'10 220 and could run a 4.7 with a vertical of not much. Love used to be a bigger guy in college so maybe he could/can run fast. #2: With that said, however, Kevin Love can not jump. I watched Cleveland play Golden State during Muzgov's first game with them and Love put an AWESOME post on 6'7 Draymond Green. Green stuffed him at the end of the move because HE CANNOT JUMP. Draymond Green is also very good. His Jumping attribute is already at a 32... Which is one of the lowest I've seen since doing these rating changes. Like, probably THE lowest. I don't care how good he is, the dude is 6'7!!!! Do you think Chris Webber or any other top 10 post player of his era would get stuffed by MJ in the post? I think not. |
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Post by Charles Barkley on Jan 13, 2015 22:13:23 GMT
Draymond Green is also very good. His Jumping attribute is already at a 32... Which is one of the lowest I've seen since doing these rating changes. Like, probably THE lowest. I don't care how good he is, the dude is 6'7!!!! Do you think Chris Webber or any other top 10 post player of his era would get stuffed by MJ in the post? I think not. I guess what I was trying to say in my comment is that, in his 89 rating, his bad athleticism is taken into account. I agree with your top 10 list. But when you talked about the PGs, I disagree. I think the reason we have good PGs is becuase we have bad defensive PGs. Every game we watch, the PGs can't guard each other. So, I think that their greatness is inflated, do you know what I mean? Im not trying to say those PGs aren't good, but the defense on them every game is terrible. |
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Post by Deleted on Jan 13, 2015 22:32:02 GMT
I don't care how good he is, the dude is 6'7!!!! Do you think Chris Webber or any other top 10 post player of his era would get stuffed by MJ in the post? I think not. I guess what I was trying to say in my comment is that, in his 89 rating, his bad athleticism is taken into account. I agree with your top 10 list. But when you talked about the PGs, I disagree. I think the reason we have good PGs is becuase we have bad defensive PGs. Every game we watch, the PGs can't guard each other. So, I think that their greatness is inflated, do you know what I mean? Im not trying to say those PGs aren't good, but the defense on them every game is terrible. I really think we should lower him and Bosh to around at least an 85 or an 86 but I feel like we need to be consistent. All I am saying is he CANNOT execute post moves because of his lack of jumping ability; whether he can run fast or not remains irrelevant. In contrast, Bosh can jump but does not possess the physical stature to impose his will upon the defense. They are both flawed but personally I would take Love. |
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Post by Jeremiah Hill on Jan 14, 2015 5:13:48 GMT
Is it that he can't or that he just doesn't. I mean, everyone knows that there is max drill athleticism and there is athleticism that you actually use to do things in a sport. It's why a guy like JJ Watt doesn't look much more athletic than your average gym on a Friday night meathead but he's the most dominant defensive player in the NFL and a guy like Clowney who everyone has a boner about because of how good he is at being athletic ends up sucking and getting hurt. I know it's a different sport, but there is a reason everyone in there right mind would say that Blake Griffin is a way better jumper than Love. This is because it is obvious that even though Love can jump 35 inches, he ain't doing that shit on the reg.
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Post by Deleted on Jan 14, 2015 10:23:31 GMT
Is it that he can't or that he just doesn't. I mean, everyone knows that there is max drill athleticism and there is athleticism that you actually use to do things in a sport. It's why a guy like JJ Watt doesn't look much more athletic than your average gym on a Friday night meathead but he's the most dominant defensive player in the NFL and a guy like Clowney who everyone has a boner about because of how good he is at being athletic ends up sucking and getting hurt. I know it's a different sport, but there is a reason everyone in there right mind would say that Blake Griffin is a way better jumper than Love. This is because it is obvious that even though Love can jump 35 inches, he ain't doing that shit on the reg. Um....JJ Watt is SUPER athletic! Do you see that guy? It's like he starts in the offense's backfield every play. In fact, I am 100% positive he can generate more power than Clowney. |
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Post by Jeremiah Hill on Jan 14, 2015 14:41:38 GMT
Is it that he can't or that he just doesn't. I mean, everyone knows that there is max drill athleticism and there is athleticism that you actually use to do things in a sport. It's why a guy like JJ Watt doesn't look much more athletic than your average gym on a Friday night meathead but he's the most dominant defensive player in the NFL and a guy like Clowney who everyone has a boner about because of how good he is at being athletic ends up sucking and getting hurt. I know it's a different sport, but there is a reason everyone in there right mind would say that Blake Griffin is a way better jumper than Love. This is because it is obvious that even though Love can jump 35 inches, he ain't doing that shit on the reg. Um....JJ Watt is SUPER athletic! Do you see that guy? It's like he starts in the offense's backfield every play. In fact, I am 100% positive he can generate more power than Clowney. I know he's super athletic, you are missing the point. They are saying that Love and Blake according to the combine are pretty much similarly athletic. However for some reason or another that athleticism isn't translating for one. |
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Chris Mullin
 Golden State Warriors
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Post by Chris Mullin on Jan 14, 2015 16:15:04 GMT
86
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Post by Jeremiah Hill on Jan 15, 2015 18:48:54 GMT
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Magic Johnson
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Post by Magic Johnson on Jan 15, 2015 19:37:58 GMT
K-Love and Kyrie should be lowered little bit I think Kyrie is 85, should be 83 and Love should be 86.
BUT most importantly even if the ratings stay the same the defensive awareness and stats need to get lowered big time the Cavs are HORRIFIC on defense it is SO BAD that OWNER/GM/COACH/PLAYER/BALL BOY/CONCESSION WORKER/OWNER OF ARENA LEBRON JAMES wanted to give TRISTIAN FUCKING THOMPSON 52 MILLION DOLLARS OVER 4 YEARS.
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Post by Jeremiah Hill on Jan 16, 2015 2:54:43 GMT
Kyrie Irving has not regressed since last season.
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Kevin Hollis
Former Thunder GM for 7 years
All Star
Posts: 2,838
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Post by Kevin Hollis on Jan 16, 2015 12:49:33 GMT
Kyrie Irving has not regressed since last season. If anything, Kyrie is one of the only ones who seems like he is trying. You can definitely tell he is working on his defense. |
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Post by Jeremiah Hill on Jan 17, 2015 4:10:32 GMT
Like he's still not good, but trying makes him doubles his effectiveness.
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Post by Andrei Kirilenko on Jan 29, 2015 23:12:02 GMT
Love has absolutely disappeared recently. And you guys want to rate him like a star. Dude is shooting 42% as a big man! Open your eyes!
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Post by Andrei Kirilenko on Jan 29, 2015 23:15:30 GMT
Things we've learned this year:
1. Love is terrible on defense
2. His great rebounding numbers were just a result of the Timberwolves boost. He is a good rebounder, but not great.
3. He is best as a 3rd option on offense (no one wins games when he is the 1 or 2).
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Post by Charles Barkley on Jan 29, 2015 23:28:16 GMT
Things we've learned this year: 1. Love is terrible on defense 2. His great rebounding numbers were just a result of the Timberwolves boost. He is a good rebounder, but not great. 3. He is best as a 3rd option on offense (no one wins games when he is the 1 or 2). Their whole system changed with JR Smith, he is still averaging a double double and his numbers, rebounding and points wise, are way better than Bosh's when he was with LeBron in Miami, so I still don't see your reasoning as to decreasing him. You are on the RC, go in and look at his ratings, he doesn't have high D-Aware or athletic ability, he is built exactly to which he plays. He is better than Bosh was with LeBron, and we didn't lower Bosh, at least not until the last year he was with the Heat. How are his great rebounding numbers a result of the T'Wolves boost? He played next to Pek who averaged 9 boards a game. And Love is averaging 10 a game with the Cavs. He is the 3rd option there. He is the 3rd option of the big 3 in Cleveland, just as Bosh was next to Wade and LeBron, so I don't see your point. |
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