Kawhi Leonard

[Dan Majerle]

Current rating : 78
Proposed : 82 -84

I think he is now consider one of the core players with the Spurs when the big three of the Spurs are down he carried the load for the team Offense and Defense. 

Comparing stats with Batum as we all know coach Pop won't let his players burn as you can see his minutes played though not more than 30 mins though he so effective.

Min
Leonard 29:07
Batum   36:02

PTS
Leonard 12.8
Batum 13.0

REB
Leonard 6.2
Batum 7.5

ASST
Leonard 2.0
Batum  5.1

FG%
Leonard 52.2
Batum 46.5

3 PTS%
Leonard 37.9
Batum 36.1

FT%
Leonard 80.2
Batum 80.3

[Walt Frazier]

I'm a big Kawhi fan, the 78 is definitely too low. I know it's just one stat but the assists are something that shouldn't be overlooked, it's a big element.

Anyway, I like his efficient he is, you didn't even touch on his steals, he gets 1.7 a game and 0.8 blocks. Also a good defender like Batum is a good defender.

Just my personal value on how important and how valuable those assists are, and Batum is a little more established, I'm going to go with an 83.

[Brian Scalabrine]

84

[Jeremiah Hill]

81

[Shaquille O'Neal]

81

[Deleted]

I am going to say an 82 because I didn't think he defended Lebron as well as I thought he would in the finals. Honestly, Danny Green did the best job!

[Charles Barkley]

Kawhi is a lot more efficient than Batum and the arguement can be made that the reason Kawhi's assists are a lot lower than Batum's is because Kawhi plays ~6 less MPG. But still, 6 minutes shouldn't equate to 3 less assists. Kawhi's PER is ~19.5 and if I remember correctly, Batum's is ~15.4.

Now, I am not a Kawhi fan, but it is mostly because I doubt his future potential (there's a lot of questions concerning athletes and new-found responsibilities) and where the Spurs will be in 3 years. The argument I will make is this: if Kawhi came into the league at a 78, has he really made a 6 point improvement in overall rating in the last 3 years?

Category       Year 1       Year 2           Year 3
MPG                24            31.2                29.1
FG%               49             49                   52
FGM/A          3.1-6.3     4.5-9.1            5.1-9.8
3P%               37.6          37.4                37.9
3PM/A          0.6-1.7      1.1-3.0            1.0-2.8
FT%                77.3         82.5                 80.2
RPG                 5.1            6.0                   6.2
APG                  1.1           1.6                   2.0
BLK                  0.4           0.6                    0.8
STL                  1.3           1.7                    1.7
PPG                  7.9           11.8                 12.9

So, I don't think Kawhi has improved enough for a 6 point increase based on those stats alone. But, I do understand most of what he does comes from locking down the opposing team's best wing scorer.

My rating: 82

[Ian Noble]

Currently Kawhi is performing at an 81/82 in my opinion. Obviously he has the potential to be a high-80s player, even 90s, but that's not happened yet.

80.

[John Stockton]

83-85

[Deleted]

84 because of his performance in the playoffs.

[Brian Scalabrine]

82

[F5 - Pinoy Sakuragi]

83

[James Kay]

I would take Kawhi over every SF not named Durant, Lebron, or George. I also think he's a top 2 defender in the NBA. You might think my rating is a product of the Finals MVP hype but I've been a fan of Kawhi for a long time. He's super efficient and has shown he can carry the offensive load numerous times when the big 3 sit. I'll say 86.

[Alex English]

I say 81. Kawhi is great and everything, but there has to be a question of how much of his play is a product of his system in San Antonio. He also lacks the raw production he needs imo. You can give a player a good rating on good efficiency, but until they show they can produce the raw numbers then a part of their value is still hypothetical. That is the case currently with Kawhi. So talking mid/high 80s with him is really jumping the gun imo.

[James Kay]

Jul 26, 2014 23:36:15 GMT Alex English said:

I say 81. Kawhi is great and everything, but there has to be a question of how much of his play is a product of his system in San Antonio. He also lacks the raw production he needs imo. You can give a player a good rating on good efficiency, but until they show they can produce the raw numbers then a part of their value is still hypothetical. That is the case currently with Kawhi. So talking mid/high 80s with him is really jumping the gun imo.

We've put AD up to an 87 by his 2nd year in the league... Id say the Finals MVP deserves to be higher than an 81. He has shown he can produce raw numbers. Every time the big three sit, he takes over.

[Deleted]

Jul 26, 2014 23:36:15 GMT Alex English said:

I say 81. Kawhi is great and everything, but there has to be a question of how much of his play is a product of his system in San Antonio. He also lacks the raw production he needs imo. You can give a player a good rating on good efficiency, but until they show they can produce the raw numbers then a part of their value is still hypothetical. That is the case currently with Kawhi. So talking mid/high 80s with him is really jumping the gun imo.

We do it with Bosh....

[John Stockton]

83-85 he is a defensive monster. I could see 80 as a low because he is still very young but will develop into a 90

[Alex English]

Jul 27, 2014 1:29:59 GMT Vlade Divac said:

Jul 26, 2014 23:36:15 GMT Alex English said:

I say 81. Kawhi is great and everything, but there has to be a question of how much of his play is a product of his system in San Antonio. He also lacks the raw production he needs imo. You can give a player a good rating on good efficiency, but until they show they can produce the raw numbers then a part of their value is still hypothetical. That is the case currently with Kawhi. So talking mid/high 80s with him is really jumping the gun imo.

We do it with Bosh....

No we don't. Bosh was the main guy in Toronto for years. From the 05-06 season to the 09-10 season Bosh averaged 23 and 10 for the Raptors. Not even close to the same thing as Leonard who has never put up elite numbers.

[Alex English]

Jul 27, 2014 1:17:54 GMT James Kay said:

Jul 26, 2014 23:36:15 GMT Alex English said:

I say 81. Kawhi is great and everything, but there has to be a question of how much of his play is a product of his system in San Antonio. He also lacks the raw production he needs imo. You can give a player a good rating on good efficiency, but until they show they can produce the raw numbers then a part of their value is still hypothetical. That is the case currently with Kawhi. So talking mid/high 80s with him is really jumping the gun imo.

We've put AD up to an 87 by his 2nd year in the league... Id say the Finals MVP deserves to be higher than an 81. He has shown he can produce raw numbers. Every time the big three sit, he takes over.

Well yea, Davis averaged 21 points, 10 boards, and 3 blocks with ridiculous advanced stats. The Finals MVP is irrelevant, an award doesn't make his play this season better or worse.

[Walt Frazier]

I've seen enough personally to go a little higher than Alex (I am keeping my 83) but generally I think he's got the right thought process on this one.

[F5 - Pinoy Sakuragi]

84 for me.

[Charles Barkley]

Jul 26, 2014 23:17:38 GMT James Kay said:

I would take Kawhi over every SF not named Durant, Lebron, or George. I also think he's a top 2 defender in the NBA. You might think my rating is a product of the Finals MVP hype but I've been a fan of Kawhi for a long time. He's super efficient and has shown he can carry the offensive load numerous times when the big 3 sit. I'll say 86.

I agree with all of your points here. 

I, however, can't vote to say an 86 because his numbers weren't "86" like numbers, if that makes sense. He is probably one of the most efficient non-post players in the league at 53% this season. 

The reason I won't go as high as your 86 is because 13/2/6 aren't 86 numbers, even with a 52/42/72 slash line. His FT% went down quite a bit this season. If Kawhi keeps this up when he becomes the 2nd option, he will put up 86 type numbers in my mind. George put up 20/3.5/7, Davis was 20/10/and nearly 3 blocks. Kawhi's numbers just aren't there yet, but they will be soon enough.

I'm going to put my vote at an 82 still. 

[Deleted]

Jul 27, 2014 1:50:27 GMT Alex English said:

Jul 27, 2014 1:29:59 GMT Vlade Divac said:

We do it with Bosh....

No we don't. Bosh was the main guy in Toronto for years. From the 05-06 season to the 09-10 season Bosh averaged 23 and 10 for the Raptors. Not even close to the same thing as Leonard who has never put up elite numbers.

That was four years ago! Whose to say Bosh hasn't declined? Therefore, I think we are open to hypothetical situations and I agree with James Kay.

[James Kay]

Jul 27, 2014 6:05:16 GMT Charles Barkley said:

Jul 26, 2014 23:17:38 GMT James Kay said:

I would take Kawhi over every SF not named Durant, Lebron, or George. I also think he's a top 2 defender in the NBA. You might think my rating is a product of the Finals MVP hype but I've been a fan of Kawhi for a long time. He's super efficient and has shown he can carry the offensive load numerous times when the big 3 sit. I'll say 86.

I agree with all of your points here. 

I, however, can't vote to say an 86 because his numbers weren't "86" like numbers, if that makes sense. He is probably one of the most efficient non-post players in the league at 53% this season. 

The reason I won't go as high as your 86 is because 13/2/6 aren't 86 numbers, even with a 52/42/72 slash line. His FT% went down quite a bit this season. If Kawhi keeps this up when he becomes the 2nd option, he will put up 86 type numbers in my mind. George put up 20/3.5/7, Davis was 20/10/and nearly 3 blocks. Kawhi's numbers just aren't there yet, but they will be soon enough.

I'm going to put my vote at an 82 still. 

www.basketball-reference.com/players/l/leonaka01.html

Looks like his FT was actually 80%. Shooting 52% from the field is elite for his position. Kawhi shot at a higher percentage than anyone else on the Spurs.

Only Korver, Durant, and Lebron were forwards that had a higher TS% than kawhi. Only Lebron had a better eFG for a forward.

1.7 steals and .8 blocks this past season.

#11 in Win shares per 48.

Idk, he only plays like 29 minutes a game. His raw numbers are deflated, but I don't believe his FG% would suffer that greatly.

[Hanamichi Sakuragi]

Jul 27, 2014 4:20:37 GMT F5 - Pinoy Sakuragi said:

84 for me.

[Shaquille O'Neal]

15.8/7.7/2.5/2.1/0.9 per 36 with a .602 TS%

I'll say 82 for now with a chance of 85+ in the near future

[James Kay]

DeAndre Jordan just got updated to an 83. Is DJ better than Kawhi?

[Walt Frazier]

DeAndre's ratings and Kawhi's ratings are focused on different areas though. DeAndre is through the roof on things like Rebound (O & D), Block, Jump, Dunk, etc. while Kawhi is more spread out throughout a ton of areas.

To be fair I have them rated the same overall but I'm just saying, these threads would be 400% more useful if people could argue the specific areas of players that need to go up or down. DeAndre's 83 vs. Kawhi's 83 look so different, Kawhi will still be a better overall player, but DeAndre will rebound and dunk a helluva lot better than Kawhi.

[Charles Barkley]

Jul 27, 2014 21:23:47 GMT James Kay said:

Jul 27, 2014 6:05:16 GMT Charles Barkley said:

I agree with all of your points here. 

I, however, can't vote to say an 86 because his numbers weren't "86" like numbers, if that makes sense. He is probably one of the most efficient non-post players in the league at 53% this season. 

The reason I won't go as high as your 86 is because 13/2/6 aren't 86 numbers, even with a 52/42/72 slash line. His FT% went down quite a bit this season. If Kawhi keeps this up when he becomes the 2nd option, he will put up 86 type numbers in my mind. George put up 20/3.5/7, Davis was 20/10/and nearly 3 blocks. Kawhi's numbers just aren't there yet, but they will be soon enough.

I'm going to put my vote at an 82 still. 

www.basketball-reference.com/players/l/leonaka01.html

Looks like his FT was actually 80%. Shooting 52% from the field is elite for his position. Kawhi shot at a higher percentage than anyone else on the Spurs.

Only Korver, Durant, and Lebron were forwards that had a higher TS% than kawhi. Only Lebron had a better eFG for a forward.

1.7 steals and .8 blocks this past season.

#11 in Win shares per 48.

Idk, he only plays like 29 minutes a game. His raw numbers are deflated, but I don't believe his FG% would suffer that greatly.

Ahhh, I was looking at his post-season FT% for some reason. 

His numbers in steals and blocks for a SF are elite, as well as his FG% and 3PT% and the advanced eFG% and TS%, but until he gets those minutes and produces the 20 PPG we all think he can get, I can't justify putting a 86 or whatever up as my vote.

Now that Pop has signed on for 5 more years, I think Kawhi will be THE guy there in 3 years tops and his numbers will reach that Paul George/LeBron range: 20/7/5 on 50% and 40% from 3. If you extrapolate the numbers out to if he played 40 minutes a night, he is there, but until he actually does it, I don't feel comfortable voting him that high. 

In my mind, he will be the 3rd option next season, all season, either Duncan or Ginobili will take the back seat when all 4 of them are on the floor. And Kawhi could possibly be the 2nd option, or even first at times. So his number will probably climb up. But I don't think he goes from the 13 PPG now to 22 or so next season, I'll put my money on 17 a game. In which case, he goes from the 83 he is likely going to be voted at, to about an 85.

[Jeremiah Hill]

In my mind he's a defensive specialist who isn't a 0 on offense, I'm sticking with my rating. If he takes on a bit more prominant role this season I'd say he'd be worthy of another bump by midseason.