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Post by James Kay on Jul 28, 2014 18:00:13 GMT
DeAndre's ratings and Kawhi's ratings are focused on different areas though. DeAndre is through the roof on things like Rebound (O & D), Block, Jump, Dunk, etc. while Kawhi is more spread out throughout a ton of areas. To be fair I have them rated the same overall but I'm just saying, these threads would be 400% more useful if people could argue the specific areas of players that need to go up or down. DeAndre's 83 vs. Kawhi's 83 look so different, Kawhi will still be a better overall player, but DeAndre will rebound and dunk a helluva lot better than Kawhi. Oh, I understand that. Im just referring to those who rated him lower than 83. |
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Post by Jeremiah Hill on Jul 28, 2014 18:04:43 GMT
You guys do realize that this finals was the first time Leonard scored 20 points more than two games in a row right? Like through his entire career had only scored 20 points or more twice in a row.
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Post by James Kay on Jul 28, 2014 19:25:29 GMT
You guys do realize that this finals was the first time Leonard scored 20 points more than two games in a row right? Like through his entire career had only scored 20 points or more twice in a row. Not really a relevant statistic especially for a team like the Spurs. Honestly if Kawhi did everything he currently does but only shot at 45%, what would you rank him as? |
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Post by Jeremiah Hill on Jul 28, 2014 22:08:03 GMT
You guys do realize that this finals was the first time Leonard scored 20 points more than two games in a row right? Like through his entire career had only scored 20 points or more twice in a row. Not really a relevant statistic especially for a team like the Spurs. Honestly if Kawhi did everything he currently does but only shot at 45%, what would you rank him as? It's crazy relevant because Duncan and Parker both did it last season while averaging the same minutes. I love Khawi Leonard I think he's gonna be a great player, he's already a great defender but if you were to switch Gordon Hayward and Khawi Leonard last season I think that offensively you would have gotten more or less the same result ( terrible FG%, tons of turnovers) he is about as good as Shawn Marion was the year the Mavericks won the title. Shawn coincidentally also defended LBJ really well and also scored a lot more than normal during the finals. I think Khawi is a better rebounder and obviously can stretch the floor making him a more useful player but that is who Khawi was last season and through the playoffs. |
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Post by Jeremiah Hill on Jul 28, 2014 22:11:15 GMT
He was a super efficient 5th option behind Parker, Duncan, Mills and Ginobili. He deserved his finals MVP but that was an unusual stretch of games that I hope continues throughout his career, but we cannot act like those three games were representative of his entire season.
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Post by Charles Barkley on Jul 29, 2014 0:55:03 GMT
He was a super efficient 5th option behind Parker, Duncan, Mills and Ginobili. He deserved his finals MVP but that was an unusual stretch of games that I hope continues throughout his career, but we cannot act like those three games were representative of his entire season. We aren't just using that small sample to vote, at least I hope people aren't. |
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Post by Jeremiah Hill on Jul 29, 2014 1:03:44 GMT
He was a super efficient 5th option behind Parker, Duncan, Mills and Ginobili. He deserved his finals MVP but that was an unusual stretch of games that I hope continues throughout his career, but we cannot act like those three games were representative of his entire season. We aren't just using that small sample to vote, at least I hope people aren't. I know, I just wanted to make it clear that I don't think that Khawi sucks or that I don't think that he'll be great eventually but what he is asked to do on his team is a fraction of what other players are asked to do. The only reason that I am willing to go above an 80 for him is because his D is so good and he plays that offensive role so damned well. |
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Post by Charles Barkley on Jul 29, 2014 2:49:54 GMT
You guys do realize that this finals was the first time Leonard scored 20 points more than two games in a row right? Like through his entire career had only scored 20 points or more twice in a row. Not really a relevant statistic especially for a team like the Spurs. Honestly if Kawhi did everything he currently does but only shot at 45%, what would you rank him as? I wanted to quote you both on this so you both get notified about what I have to say, it does not pertain to anything I quoted though, hope that makes sense. I want us to wait on the whole vote for Kawhi, till the Hayward vote is done. I feel like once people see where Hayward is, people will move Kawhi. |
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Post by Hanamichi Sakuragi on Jul 29, 2014 20:29:14 GMT
Kawhi's new rating is still not decided.. we better speed it up.. coz this man deserves it.
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Post by James Kay on Jul 30, 2014 0:54:53 GMT
Alright long post incoming. This will be basically the last I speak of Kawhi. You’ve all adopted the popular narrative going on right now in reaction to his Finals MVP Award. “Kawhi isn’t proven.” “He is there for his defense and anything he contributes on offense is a bonus.” “Kawhi sucks dick” lol maybe it hasn't gotten that harsh but it feels like it is getting there! First of all, with regard to Kawhi not being able to put up the raw numbers you so desperately crave, he has two things going against him: 1. First, the bane of most Spurs players’ stats, their limited minutes. Kawhi played in just 29 minutes per game. Now, normally it is not safe to extrapolate players’ statistics into per36 and rely on those for accurate projections. However, in the case of Kawhi and many other Spurs players, I’d argue that it is in fact safe to do so. Why? Because Kawhi is already playing starter minutes. Kawhi is not a 10-15 minute player who’s able to play a few efficient and energetic minutes. If he played more minutes in the same role that he is in now, it is very hard to imagine any change in his efficiency; therefore his per36 stats - a 20% increase in all of his raw numbers - should reflect an accurate projection of what Kawhi is capable of in 36 minutes. Many of Kawhi’s peers – the non-supserstar wing players such as George, Batum, Hayward, Chandler – play those type of minutes and their stats are inflated in comparison because of that. In per 36 stats: Kawhi posted 16 points, 7.7 rebounds, 2.5 assists, 2.1 steals, and only 1.5 turnovers. His assist numbers aren’t truly competitive among that group, but those steals and limited turnovers are pretty outrageous. 16/8 isn’t too shabby, either. It’s actually much more than that, considering he shoots at an insane 52%. As a wing player. 2. The second thing that Kawhi has going against him is his role within the organization. Kawhi is being groomed to be the new face of the Spurs franchise. Unfortunately, that means spending a lot of time behind the current faces – Duncan, Parker, and Manu. His scoring ability is often hidden or ignored under the shadow of the Big Three. But Kawhi has had some chances to shine. How about the game against GSW this season when the big three sat? Kawhi put up 21 and 10 on 57% shooting in 35 minutes to bring them a victory. Honestly for all the talk Pop gets about resting his players there's very few games where all of the three big three sit. And i cant find them all right now. But there was another one the year before last against the bulls where kawhi played without the 3 and scored like 26 and they won. I really dont have the time to find all the games where the big 3 sat (it would be useful if I knew how to do that easily on bball reference) but Ive looked at it before and he almost always does very well. Finally, let's do a comparison of the wing players. Their ratings: Paul George = 88 Batum = 84 Parsons = 81 Hayward = looking like an 83-84 BBall reference has a nifty compare players tool. I took their per game stats, per 36 stats, and their advanced stats and put them in a nice picture here:  As you can see, the rest of these wings play a full 20% more minutes than Kawhi. Furthermore, Kawhi is LEAGUES ahead in FG%. He's also pretty solidly in first for 3P% as well. To be fair, Hayward and George are probably creating their own shot a bit more, at least on threes. Looking at per36, Kawhi leads in rebounds, steals, blocks, turnovers. His FT% is middling of the pack, yet still solid above 80%. Looking at advanced stats, we can see that Kawhi is JUST second in PER to Paul George, and has a substantial lead in all sorts of efficiency metrics - eFG, TS%, WS/48.
If Kawhi scored 5 more points, he'd total 18 points per game. Putting him second in scoring. Do you really believe that were Kawhi to add 5 more ppg, his efficiency would drop from 52% to below 47% ? That is a substantial drop for 5 more points. And it would still have him in FIRST for efficiency. I don’t know how you guys are about to give the guy who just won FINALS MVP for his job against LEBRON JAMES an 81 rating. I know its just an award, it has no concrete correlation to every-game performance, but I’d argue that it would not even be possible for someone rated an 81 to win Finals MVP. The Spurs just won the NBA Finals. I know there’s A LOT more involved in their success than just kawhi, but the guy guarding the TWO BEST PLAYERS on the planet for the final two series needs to get some credit. If Kawhi was “rated” an 81 in real life, he would not have played well enough to win that award. And as I’ve shown, his real results and real potential are somewhat hidden behind the limited minutes and limited role. But Kawhi takes advantage of the opportunities he has to showcase his ability. And his per36 stats are very reliable regarding what he’d do if given the same amount of minutes as his wing peers. Lately I’ve been hearing a lot of questions about what Kawhi would be if he wasn’t on the Spurs. That question, at least now, is totally irrelevant. Kawhi IS on the Spurs. And at this point, he’s been molded. Honestly, do you see Kawhi going to another team and turning into a Josh Smith chucker? Or a turnover prone ball-hog? He’s a basketball cyborg he has no emotions. He’s been trained by the best coach (Pop) and the best team-player (Duncan). Ugh. Okay my rant is over. I get that you guys want to be conservative with his rating, but anyone rating him below an 83 is crazy. ps heres the link to the stats because they showed up a little small i.imgur.com/x0WI3DQ.png
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Post by Charles Barkley on Jul 30, 2014 1:14:52 GMT
James, all of your points make sense, but I am not going to base his rating off of Per 36 numbers. I just can't. It is how I am voting. Players I vote on, get the rating I feel he produced in the season.
Will his numbers climb up? Yes, I believe so. But I can't justify my vote if it were to be an 86, because he didn't play like an 86 compared to the other SFs in that range.
I honestly feel like this is bad timing for Kawhi to be voted upon, Parsons and Hayward should both go first, which would put us at a better baseline as to where Kawhi should be, because in my mind, he is better than those guys and had a better year than them.
That is jus how I am voting. I am only one voice. Only one vote. I think I voted an 83, but if Hayward winds up at an 85, it would be a travesty for Kawhi to be rated less. Which is why I STRONGLY feel Kawhi should be waited up on, as I think many votes will change after Hayward is decided and a Parsons thread is finally made.
Again, my theory is their rating should match that years production, irregardless of their minutes and, in my mind, Kawhi didn't put up 86 numbers, but if Hayward and Parsons wind up at 85, I would like to change my vote.
The SF tier is pretty much Lebron, Durant, a little drop (very little as Melo had a career year), tier 2 is PG, then Batum, Kawhi, Parsons, Hayward in no particular order, but I feel Kawhj should at least be where Batum is.
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Post by James Kay on Jul 30, 2014 1:27:02 GMT
James, all of your points make sense, but I am not going to base his rating off of Per 36 numbers. I just can't. It is how I am voting. Players I vote on, get the rating I feel he produced in the season. Will his numbers climb up? Yes, I believe so. But I can't justify my vote if it were to be an 86, because he didn't play like an 86 compared to the other SFs in that range. I honestly feel like this is bad timing for Kawhi to be voted upon, Parsons and Hayward should both go first, which would put us at a better baseline as to where Kawhi should be, because in my mind, he is better than those guys and had a better year than them. That is jus how I am voting. I am only one voice. Only one vote. I think I voted an 83, but if Hayward winds up at an 85, it would be a travesty for Kawhi to be rated less. Which is why I STRONGLY feel Kawhi should be waited up on, as I think many votes will change after Hayward is decided and a Parsons thread is finally made. Again, my theory is their rating should match that years production, irregardless of their minutes and, in my mind, Kawhi didn't put up 86 numbers, but if Hayward and Parsons wind up at 85, I would like to change my vote. The SF tier is pretty much Lebron, Durant, a little drop (very little as Melo had a career year), tier 2 is PG, then Batum, Kawhi, Parsons, Hayward in no particular order, but I feel Kawhj should at least be where Batum is. Its a fair point, voting on production. Its something of a controversial issue in a sim league, where players are put into positions that are not mirrored in real life. The question is, do we try and rate these players to properly reflect how they'd play in new situations or do we stick to the exact numbers? In that case, Vlade might be right about Bosh. His numbers don't deserve his rating. But we know that Bosh is an 88 player. Which is why he is rated that. Which is why I think that Kawhi deserves a little bit of number extrapolation. |
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Post by Charles Barkley on Jul 30, 2014 1:49:05 GMT
James, all of your points make sense, but I am not going to base his rating off of Per 36 numbers. I just can't. It is how I am voting. Players I vote on, get the rating I feel he produced in the season. Will his numbers climb up? Yes, I believe so. But I can't justify my vote if it were to be an 86, because he didn't play like an 86 compared to the other SFs in that range. I honestly feel like this is bad timing for Kawhi to be voted upon, Parsons and Hayward should both go first, which would put us at a better baseline as to where Kawhi should be, because in my mind, he is better than those guys and had a better year than them. That is jus how I am voting. I am only one voice. Only one vote. I think I voted an 83, but if Hayward winds up at an 85, it would be a travesty for Kawhi to be rated less. Which is why I STRONGLY feel Kawhi should be waited up on, as I think many votes will change after Hayward is decided and a Parsons thread is finally made. Again, my theory is their rating should match that years production, irregardless of their minutes and, in my mind, Kawhi didn't put up 86 numbers, but if Hayward and Parsons wind up at 85, I would like to change my vote. The SF tier is pretty much Lebron, Durant, a little drop (very little as Melo had a career year), tier 2 is PG, then Batum, Kawhi, Parsons, Hayward in no particular order, but I feel Kawhj should at least be where Batum is. Its a fair point, voting on production. Its something of a controversial issue in a sim league, where players are put into positions that are not mirrored in real life. The question is, do we try and rate these players to properly reflect how they'd play in new situations or do we stick to the exact numbers? In that case, Vlade might be right about Bosh. His numbers don't deserve his rating. But we know that Bosh is an 88 player. Which is why he is rated that. Which is why I think that Kawhi deserves a little bit of number extrapolation. It is a controversial idea indeed, and I have taken that route. Mainly because there are players who get "extra points" because of who they are. I feel like Kawhi and Bosh, for example, are the outliers in this. Im mainly doing it because there are too many players that are given credit to their past when they aren't that player anymore and less situations like Kawhi and Bosh. I may stay this route, or change this route in the future. But right now, I am sticking to my guns. But, I am also rating them amongst their peers as well, which is why when I see the Hayward and Parsons' ratings, I would change my vote. The Chris Bosh scale was like if player X does Y production, he gets N rating, no matter the position, and no matter anything else. If I were to be ok with extrapolating any players stats, it would be Kawhi's. But because I am also throwing the peer aspect into it, my Kawhi rating will likely go up, and I feel like mostly everyone else's will too. It is honestly terrible timing. |
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Post by Hanamichi Sakuragi on Aug 9, 2014 7:36:28 GMT
Walt Fraziersir, there are already 8 votes for him and the average is 82... is the increase official already?
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Post by Walt Frazier on Aug 9, 2014 14:44:16 GMT
We really normally like more, especially for a player of Kawhi's caliber, but it's "enough" where a solid sample has been taken and we can get a solid feel for the league.
He'll still be one of many left (we're working on a slew of 17 guys who were voted on months ago that need a 3-point change, and there are another 19 who need a 2-point change, plus more that need 1 point changes...) but yes Kawhi WILL get a boost. I just can't guarantee it will be tomorrow or even this week.
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Post by Hanamichi Sakuragi on Aug 9, 2014 14:51:28 GMT
We really normally like more, especially for a player of Kawhi's caliber, but it's "enough" where a solid sample has been taken and we can get a solid feel for the league. He'll still be one of many left (we're working on a slew of 17 guys who were voted on months ago that need a 3-point change, and there are another 19 who need a 2-point change, plus more that need 1 point changes...) but yes Kawhi WILL get a boost. I just can't guarantee it will be tomorrow or even this week. thanks sir  |
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Post by Jeremiah Hill on Aug 9, 2014 15:56:17 GMT
Its not my fault everyone overrated Hayward. I'm sticking with my vote. That 52% is nice but if he shot it more times per game it would go down guaranteed.
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Post by Hanamichi Sakuragi on Aug 27, 2014 22:47:54 GMT
use your power to vote |
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Post by Charles Barkley on Jan 15, 2015 0:35:41 GMT
Thread closed. Make a new thread if you have a new opinion of Kawhi
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