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Post by Walt Frazier on Apr 14, 2014 13:48:37 GMT
I'm making this thread partially in direct response to DeMar DeRozan. So I will compare the two players.
However, when we last visited Batum almost 2 years ago, I was pretty sure he was going to keep up what he was doing, and others thought he wasn't going to, so since he's kept it up and maybe improved overall, he's due for another look.
First, career stats. Due to Injuries in Batum's Sophomore season (2009-10), these two have played 409 & 382 games, so this is pretty relevant. I'll go into their current season, maybe last two seasons after this b/c I realize that is more relevant to a current rating change. But, a look at their career is a good starting baseline.
Cat - Batum vs DeRozan
mpg - 30:24 vs 33:19
Pts - 11.5 vs 16.7 - Ooooo, Points everyone! Lol. DeRo takes more shots and is a bigger focal point on his team, but he gets them in a much less efficient way overall.
FG% - 45.3 vs 44.7 - Due to volume you can call this a wash, though DeRo's career is trending down and spreading this gap.
3pt - 37.0 vs 26.7 - Batum is head-over-heels better than DeRozan. He takes 4.3 vs DeRo's 1.3. Huge Batum win.
FT% - 83.2 vs 81.5 - Significant enough to note that Batum is the better FT shooter.
Reb - 4.9 vs 3.7 - Batum (remember, less mpg too)
Ast - 2.7 vs 2.2 - Batum
Stl - 0.9 vs 0.9 - Even/Batum (less mpg)
Blk - 0.8 vs 0.3 - Batum
Ok, both guys are athletic specimens so I can't imagine their athletic attributes are too far apart. DeRozan is relied upon more in his career for a very bad Toronto team (career, remember, I'm talking Career right now).
On to this season's stats
Cat - Batum vs DeRozan
mpg - 36:20 vs 38:23 - Both guys are huge parts of their team now, with DeRozan still playing a few more minutes.
Pts - 13.1 vs 22.8 - Obviously, we should credit players for scoring that many points. DeRozan's team is in the playoffs, he's a focal point of their offense, and they won the Atlantic (pretty terrible division though, and the East is still kinda weak overall). I just ask that we look at how he scored those points.
FG% - 46.5 vs 42.9 - Ok, Yes DeRozan takes 18 shots a game and Batum takes 10. Still, we're looking at almost a 4% difference. I'd almost be comfortable calling this a wash b/c I know there is reason to believe Batum's shooting would dip with increased usage, BUT please read this part, Batum's highest scoring games, we'll say with 18+ points (that's 5 more than he normally averages), he shot 135/247 over 19 games, which is 54.7%! Batum can handle the increased workload, the Blazers just don't need him to.
3pt - 36.3 vs 30.5 - Batum is taking 4.9 3's a game, DeRozan 2.7. This is an enormous advantage to Batum. He takes more and he makes way more as a %.
FT% - 80.6 vs 82.4 - Obviously DeRozan takes this one this season, but remember over their career's Batum has a 2% advantage. Last year for example, both players shot better than this, but Batum was about 1% higher than DeRozan.
Reb - 7.5 vs 4.3 - Batum even plays less mpg. Monstrous advantage Batum here. This is part of what he's asked to do that maybe DeRozan isn't, but 7.5 is very impressive regardless
Ast - 5.1 vs 4.0 - I'd like to take a moment to point out that Batum is 27th in the entire NBA in assists. He's ahead of Tyreke Evans, Chalmers, Knight, Calderon, Augustin, Oladipo for example. Also like to take a moment to point out that Batum had 4.9 apg last season too, so this is not a fluke. DeRozan does well here, no doubt, but Batum does better, and again in a couple less mpg.
Stl - 0.9 vs 1.1 - This is basically a wash. We're talking every 5 games DeRozan gets one more steal or something like that. And, keep in mind, he plays a couple more minutes. We'd be splitting hairs here to really give it to DeRozan but I will.
Blk - 0.7 vs 0.4 - Batum takes it, and in less mpg, and career #'s back this up.
DEFENSE - Batum is one of the better and more versatile defenders in the league. He guards PG, SG, SF, and PF. His length, strength, and quickness allow him to pull this off. We need to account for this in a rating.
True Shooting % - Batum is at 59%, 40th in the NBA, right with DWade. DeRozan is at 53.1, 182nd in the league, with guys like Blatche, Andre Miller, Tony Allen.
DeRozan is currently looking like an 85 in his stock watch thread. Accounting for Batum being a much more efficient shooter/scorer overall, and clearly having a huge 3pt advantage, as well as a big advantage in rebounds and defense, I have to put Batum higher. I'm just not blinded by points. Batum needs credit for avg 5 apg for two years in a row as a non-PG. He needs credit for 7.5 rebounds per game. All of that. I think overall he's clearly better than DeRozan.
Current Rating: 83
Proposed Rating: 88
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Post by Deleted on Apr 14, 2014 14:06:37 GMT
Honestly, I think this is a better argument to lower DeRozan than to raise Batum. Given my use of comparisons in the past, however, I am going to agree with Walt and give Batum an 88. Basically, this is Walt's version of the "Chris Bosh scale" and personally I love the principals behind it.
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Post by Shane Battier on Apr 14, 2014 14:32:49 GMT
85-86 for me.
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Post by Walt Frazier on Apr 14, 2014 14:43:22 GMT
I think 83 is fine for both. As Vlade said, this is another Chris Bosh argument. Batum gets 13.1 ppg and people are voting to have him at an 88  Defense Rebounding 3pt Shooting Defense True FG% Assists Defense 100% honesty, I view Batum as 2-3 points better than DeRozan. You can go look at where I rated DeRozan to see where I maybe kinda would put Batum if the DeRozan thread wasn't up, but if DeRozan gets an 85, then I don't see how Batum isn't due an increase from his 83. EDIT: That said I respect that you are one of the people who put DeRozan at an 83. I do think Batum is clearly better than DeRozan though when you look at everything. Is DeRozan maybe a better scorer? I'm not even sure tbh. But then give Batum the advantage in so many other areas and I don't see how you give them the same rating. |
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Post by Jeremiah Hill on Apr 14, 2014 14:44:17 GMT
85 same as my DeRozan rating.
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Post by Jeremiah Hill on Apr 14, 2014 14:46:34 GMT
Honestly, I think this is a better argument to lower DeRozan than to raise Batum. Given my use of comparisons in the past, however, I am going to agree with Walt and give Batum an 88. Basically, this is Walt's version of the "Chris Bosh scale" and personally I love the principals behind it. Yeah, except here he came with more than just points and rebounds. Notice how he focuses mainly on FG% and 3pt% to make his arguments, it's almost as if those things matter. |
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Post by Walt Frazier on Apr 14, 2014 14:46:41 GMT
85 same as my DeRozan rating. So you value inefficient shooting over Defense, rebounding, passing, effective shooting, etc? Please note, to everyone, I do not think DeRozan is a bad player. He's made real improvements by upping his passing game and even grabbing more steals, I just think Batum is better overall, and I don't really see the argument against it. No one has put out a real argument yet, though I know we're early in this process. |
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Post by Walt Frazier on Apr 14, 2014 14:53:57 GMT
Honestly, I think this is a better argument to lower DeRozan than to raise Batum. Given my use of comparisons in the past, however, I am going to agree with Walt and give Batum an 88. Basically, this is Walt's version of the "Chris Bosh scale" and personally I love the principals behind it. Yeah, except here he came with more than just points and rebounds. Notice how he focuses mainly on FG% and 3pt% to make his arguments, it's almost as if those things matter. And elite rebounding for a typically sized swingman. And top 30 in the NBA in assists. Fun facts - When Aldridge was out earlier this season, Batum put up 49 rebounds in a 3-game stretch (16.33 a game). - Then, a couple games later, still w/o Aldridge, Batum put up 46 rebounds in another 3 game stretch (15.33). - Batum has a total of 19 games this season with 10+ rebounds. - The entire month of March, Batum avg 11.0 rpg. - Batum has 5 games this season with 10+ assists. Come on, this guy is crazy talented. Can he do all of that every game? Of course not. But, he is supremely talented and has the ability to completely blow up any part of the game at any time. The Blazers just happen to have a couple guys named LaMarcus Aldridge and Damian Lillard on the team who demand the ball more. Batum is the ultimate glue-guy who can actually take over games and excels in every aspect of the game. |
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Post by Deleted on Apr 14, 2014 14:54:53 GMT
Honestly, I think this is a better argument to lower DeRozan than to raise Batum. Given my use of comparisons in the past, however, I am going to agree with Walt and give Batum an 88. Basically, this is Walt's version of the "Chris Bosh scale" and personally I love the principals behind it. Yeah, except here he came with more than just points and rebounds. Notice how he focuses mainly on FG% and 3pt% to make his arguments, it's almost as if those things matter. FG% does not matter THAT MUCH; you need to get the hell over it. For the record, I am going to wait to pass judgement on DeRozan until I watch him play in the playoffs (honestly I have never seen him play) but I think his biggest problem is resume. I am all for him being an 85 if he does this again next year. |
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Post by Walt Frazier on Apr 14, 2014 14:56:58 GMT
Can we keep this to Batum guys? Or, understandably, DeRozan can come into the conversation, or even other G/F's. But let's let go of the Chris Bosh stuff, at least in this thread.
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Post by Jeremiah Hill on Apr 14, 2014 15:04:51 GMT
85 same as my DeRozan rating. So you value inefficient shooting over Defense, rebounding, passing, effective shooting, etc? Please note, to everyone, I do not think DeRozan is a bad player. He's made real improvements by upping his passing game and even grabbing more steals, I just think Batum is better overall, and I don't really see the argument against it. No one has put out a real argument yet, though I know we're early in this process. Don't put any words in my mouth. DeRozen turns the ball over less, both are great passers for their positions (They aren't KD or LBJ but that's not the argument here) In all actuality Nicolas Batum has a more important offensive presence for his team however his defensive contribution is more or less equal to DeRozen. I think that Batum gets the bump up to DeRozen's level because he's super efficient and a good passer. And that 30MPG stat you lead with is dishonest, this season he's playing 2 minutes less than DeRozan both are playing over 35 MPG so that doesn't really matter. Batum also has Lillard, Wesley Mathews and Mo Williams to kick out to when getting assists and he also has LaMarcus to drop it to. His RPG also because of the other high volume shooters on his team he's probably in a better spot to get the rebound than DeRozan who's most likely shooting. I've been doing a bit more indepth research into this For me, DeRozan could just as easily be an 83 or an 84 but I said 85 on the other thread which was more or less ball parking from what I saw from him over this season. He probably should be an 83 at least until his 3pt shot gets up to league average, which incidentally is getting better (he's at a career high this season at 30%). But also he understands this limitation and doesn't shoot a crapload of them even though he never makes them (Josh Smith). |
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Post by Jeremiah Hill on Apr 14, 2014 15:12:10 GMT
But in light of this new research I went ahead and changed my rating on DeRozen, I think I'm gonna stick with my 85 rating for Batum though.
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Post by Walt Frazier on Apr 14, 2014 15:13:00 GMT
So you value inefficient shooting over Defense, rebounding, passing, effective shooting, etc? Please note, to everyone, I do not think DeRozan is a bad player. He's made real improvements by upping his passing game and even grabbing more steals, I just think Batum is better overall, and I don't really see the argument against it. No one has put out a real argument yet, though I know we're early in this process. Don't put any words in my mouth. Just looking at your ratings of both players and drawing conclusions from all the facts.DeRozen turns the ball over less (2.2 to 2.5), both are great passers for their positions (They aren't KD or LBJ but that's not the argument here A/TO is 2.04 for Batum and 1.82 for DeRozan. So yes, true, but Batum does have an edge here and has done it two years in a row) In all actuality Nicolas Batum has a more important offensive presence for his team however his defensive contribution is more or less equal to DeRozen (false. I've never seen DeRozan guard the 1-4 positions, especially not a 4, and Batum does it very well). I think that Batum gets the bump up to DeRozen's level because he's super efficient and a good passer and a much better rebounder and 3pt shooter, and again defender. And that 30MPG stat you lead with is dishonest (That was a career thing, I made that clear. The 2nd chunk of stats is this season, so...), this season he's playing 2 minutes less than DeRozan both are playing over 35 MPG so that doesn't really matter. Batum also has Lillard, Wesley Mathews and Mo Williams to kick out to when getting assists and he also has LaMarcus to drop it to. His RPG also because of the other high volume shooters on his team he's probably in a better spot to get the rebound than DeRozan who's most likely shooting. (Maybe part of it, but that doesn't account for 3+ rpg if you are trying to say they're basically even. 7.5 from a 220 lb player is damn impressive when he guards PG, SG, SF, PF)I've been doing a bit more indepth research into this For me, DeRozan could just as easily be an 83 or an 84 but I said 85 on the other thread which was more or less ball parking from what I saw from him over this season. He probably should be an 83 at least until his 3pt shot gets up to league average, which incidentally is getting better (he's at a career high this season at 30%) (And Batum's career LOW is 34.5, so at least give credit to Batum there, something you haven't done at all). But also he understands this limitation and doesn't shoot a crapload of them even though he never makes them (Josh Smith). (I'll give you that, as I said I don't dislike DeMar...I just think Batum is clearly better.) |
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Post by Walt Frazier on Apr 14, 2014 15:15:38 GMT
This is stupid, I'm tired of these bullshit threads popping up because people are mad about other players. The entire ratings changes process has gotten out of control in my opinion. Everyone wants to focus in on one or two narrow ratings and fail to take into account the total impact of the player. DeRozan and Batum are both good, but in different ways. They are about as complete opposite as possible for wing players to be, so why the hell are we comparing them To be fair I have been thinking about bumping Batum for weeks, just focusing on the decreases. But when I see another SG/SF type player get a big bump, and I say "what the hell, Batum has a bigger impact on the game and is a better overall player"....then I go and put up a thread, yes. And, you are being completely unfair saying I am focusing on one or two narrow ratings. This is ALL about the total impact of the player. If you think points outweighs 3pt%, FG%, True FG%, Rebounds, A/To, and Defense, then I can't understand at all. You contradict yourself in your post. You want us to talk about total impact which is exactly what I'm doing, but you say I'm focusing on one or two narrow things when I'm putting out about all the information there is. Not fair and not accurate on this thread Barber. EDIT: Also, I am not mad about DeRozan's boost in general. I put him in for a 4 point jump, that's pretty damn significant, and I think he's proven himself to be a better player than he was last year or two years ago, but with faults that I see as major, such as 3pt shooting and overall FG%. Just looking for accurate ratings...sorry? |
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Post by Walt Frazier on Apr 14, 2014 15:16:31 GMT
But in light of this new research I went ahead and changed my rating on DeRozen, I think I'm gonna stick with my 85 rating for Batum though. This makes sense to me. I am more looking for a gap between Batum & DeRozan than I am looking to get Batum a super high rating. I think anyone who truly looks at the TOTAL IMPACT of these two players will see Batum deserves a higher overall rating. |
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Post by Jeremiah Hill on Apr 14, 2014 15:28:25 GMT
I do think that it's super impressive that DeRozan is able to score that much despite the low 3pt%, and while I'd say he's a great athlete he's not a dominant monster like LBJ who can just bully his way into the post to keep his efficiency high. One thing to note, DeRozan's corner 3's 37% and 45% for the other corner.
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Post by Deleted on Apr 14, 2014 16:19:26 GMT
85
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Post by Danny Longley on Apr 14, 2014 16:24:01 GMT
Is Batum apparently Harden-PGeorge caliber nowadays?
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Post by Mike Krzyzewski on Apr 14, 2014 16:24:11 GMT
85
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Post by Alex English on Apr 14, 2014 17:13:11 GMT
This thread is stupid. Walt Frazier is Vlade Divac and the title of this thread is Chris Bosh. We are doing this shit all over again.
Batum is NOT an 88. That's fucking ridiculous. He scores 13ppg. That's like 77-79 rating territory. But he does it fairly efficiently and contributes in a lot of other ways, so his rating is boosted to show that and an 83 is right where he should be.
There are a few things that were missed in that analysis too. DeRozan's PER this season is 18.4, Batum's is 15.8. So there's that, the best single number advanced stat we currently have favours DeRozan.
Like Josh said these are extremely different players. Batum is more of a '3 and D' catch and shoot player while DeRozan is a slasher. He averages 8 free throw attempts per game, while Batum averages 2.5 attempts. That comes out to 29% of DeRozan's points coming from the line and only 11% for Batum. This compensates a lot for his lower FG% and 3P%.
Also 68.3% of Batum's shots are assisted compared to 50.5% of DeRozan's shots. He creates a lot more offense than Batum does. That is obviously a much more difficult and less efficient way to score than standing at the 3 point line and catching a pass from Damian Lillard.
They play completely different roles on their team. DeRozan is the focal point of a team that wins 59% of it's games. The Raptors have 47 wins and most people thought they would be lucky to get 30, especially when the Rudy Gay trade happened. How can DeMar DeRozan and Kyle Lowry have 79 and 78 ratings respectively when they are the leaders of one of the best teams in the east?
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Post by Deleted on Apr 14, 2014 17:50:51 GMT
This thread is stupid. Walt Frazier is Vlade Divac and the title of this thread is Chris Bosh. We are doing this shit all over again. Batum is NOT an 88. That's fucking ridiculous. He scores 13ppg. That's like 77-79 rating territory. But he does it fairly efficiently and contributes in a lot of other ways, so his rating is boosted to show that and an 83 is right where he should be. There are a few things that were missed in that analysis too. DeRozan's PER this season is 18.4, Batum's is 15.8. So there's that, the best single number advanced stat we currently have favours DeRozan. Like Josh said these are extremely different players. Batum is more of a '3 and D' catch and shoot player while DeRozan is a slasher. He averages 8 free throw attempts per game, while Batum averages 2.5 attempts. That comes out to 29% of DeRozan's points coming from the line and only 11% for Batum. This compensates a lot for his lower FG% and 3P%. Also 68.3% of Batum's shots are assisted compared to 50.5% of DeRozan's shots. He creates a lot more offense than Batum does. That is obviously a much more difficult and less efficient way to score than standing at the 3 point line and catching a pass from Damian Lillard. They play completely different roles on their team. DeRozan is the focal point of a team that wins 59% of it's games. The Raptors have 47 wins and most people thought they would be lucky to get 30, especially when the Rudy Gay trade happened. How can DeMar DeRozan and Kyle Lowry have 79 and 78 ratings respectively when they are the leaders of one of the best teams in the east? If they are so similar, how come you never made good points like this about Bosh? I am going to try to watch the Raptors in the playoffs but I think the only argument against DeRozan would be that he just now started putting up stellar numbers. If he does this again next year, he should without a doubt be like an 85-87. |
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Post by Walt Frazier on Apr 14, 2014 18:13:38 GMT
This thread is stupid. Walt Frazier is Vlade Divac and the title of this thread is Chris Bosh. We are doing this shit all over again. Batum is NOT an 88. That's fucking ridiculous. He scores 13ppg. That's like 77-79 rating territory. But he does it fairly efficiently and contributes in a lot of other ways, so his rating is boosted to show that and an 83 is right where he should be. There are a few things that were missed in that analysis too. DeRozan's PER this season is 18.4, Batum's is 15.8. So there's that, the best single number advanced stat we currently have favours DeRozan. Like Josh said these are extremely different players. Batum is more of a '3 and D' catch and shoot player while DeRozan is a slasher. He averages 8 free throw attempts per game, while Batum averages 2.5 attempts. That comes out to 29% of DeRozan's points coming from the line and only 11% for Batum. This compensates a lot for his lower FG% and 3P%. Also 68.3% of Batum's shots are assisted compared to 50.5% of DeRozan's shots. He creates a lot more offense than Batum does. That is obviously a much more difficult and less efficient way to score than standing at the 3 point line and catching a pass from Damian Lillard. They play completely different roles on their team. DeRozan is the focal point of a team that wins 59% of it's games. The Raptors have 47 wins and most people thought they would be lucky to get 30, especially when the Rudy Gay trade happened. How can DeMar DeRozan and Kyle Lowry have 79 and 78 ratings respectively when they are the leaders of one of the best teams in the east? Alex you probably haven't read all of the posts in this thread and I understand that. I have mentioned that I honestly think Batum is 2-3 points better than DeRozan. You can also go check my rating on DeRozan to see where I'd put Batum if the DeRozan thread wasn't already posted (said less cryptically, I would probably have gone with an 86). I'd also add that PER has been said to overvalue high-quantity shooters, especially 2pt shooters, even if their % is not good. That is one of it's main flaws. Another big flaw is the only defense it measures is Steals & Blocks. Many around the league credit Batum with very good defense, but PER is probably giving him little to no credit for his defense, which we should keep in mind. Bruce Bowen, for example, routinely posted a PER in the single digits, which by Hollinger's scale would make him a "Rental" or even "Next Stop - DLeague" player. So, while it's a solid stat, it has it's flaws, and for guys actually known to be good on Defense we should really account for that. Truth be told I do believe these are two very different players. I do also still believe that Batum makes a greater impact on the game and is an overall better player than DeRozan. DeRozan now looks like an 84 so I will lower my rating to an 87 here for Batum. EDIT: I will also add that there seems to be a misconception. My argument is not that Batum and DeRozan are the same player, and here is a bunch of stuff about why I think Batum does what DeRozan does but better. No sir. My argument is that Batum is a better all-around player, and thus should have a better OVR rating. The comparison is not based only on points or even overall scoring effectiveness, but on their entire game. I believe we can compare two players w/o calling them the same type of player. I'm looking for an OVR rating, and we can use their overall stats and games to compare to each other since at least they are similar positions on the court. I'm not comparing a Center to a Point Guard here. And while Batum is fairly unique, with his 5+ assists, 7.5 rebounds, and good 3pt shot, he is mostly a SF. DeRozan I suppose is mostly a SG but they both have elements which make it close enough to compare their overall effect on the game. When Batum needs to score, like in 19 games this year, he does it at a 54.7% clip! When he needs to grab rebounds, he goes freaking crazy, averaging 11 per game in March and all told, has 19 other games where he went over double digit rebounds. How many times has DeRozan done that? How many times has DeRozan been called upon to be the primary distributor of the ball? Batum has 5 games with 10+ assists. How many times has DeRozan guarded the opposite team's PG? Or their PF? I'm sorry, these two are very different - Batum is clearly the better and it's an insult if the ratings don't end up reflecting that. |
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Post by Walt Frazier on Apr 14, 2014 18:15:10 GMT
Is Batum apparently Harden-PGeorge caliber nowadays? Again, I think Batum should probably be an 86 max right now, but if Derozan was at an 85, and I think Batum overall is 2-3 points better, than I had to put Batum at an 88. I'm now lowering my suggestion to an 87 since DeRozan has received a few rating changes as well. |
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Post by Walt Frazier on Apr 14, 2014 18:31:07 GMT
Also Alex, by your "best overall statistic", Kevin Love is the 3rd best player in the NBA behind Durant and LeBron. Shall we open up the Kevin Love thread so you can put in a 95 on Love?
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Post by Alex English on Apr 14, 2014 18:46:50 GMT
Also Alex, by your "best overall statistic", Kevin Love is the 3rd best player in the NBA behind Durant and LeBron. Shall we open up the Kevin Love thread so you can put in a 95 on Love? I said "the best single number advanced stat we currently have". If you are going to quote me then please do it correctly. If you came away with the impression that I rely so heavily on the PER for coming up with a player's rating then you should read that post again. The Timberwolves are 40-40. The Raptors are 47-33. If Love is so good then why does his team suck? You argue to hell and back that Rubio, Pekovic, Martin and the rest of his supporting cast are all good players. So why does the team suck? I'm really not sure what Kevin Love has to do with this thread. It's also interesting coming from the person who said this: Can we keep this to Batum guys? Or, understandably, DeRozan can come into the conversation, or even other G/F's. But let's let go of the Chris Bosh stuff, at least in this thread. I find it really annoying how petty the stockwatch section has become. I'm definitely done with this thread but the whole section is extremely annoying to keep up with. I think we need a change. I don't know what the solution is though. |
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Post by Deleted on Apr 14, 2014 18:58:35 GMT
Also Alex, by your "best overall statistic", Kevin Love is the 3rd best player in the NBA behind Durant and LeBron. Shall we open up the Kevin Love thread so you can put in a 95 on Love? I said "the best single number advanced stat we currently have". If you are going to quote me then please do it correctly. If you came away with the impression that I rely so heavily on the PER for coming up with a player's rating then you should read that post again. The Timberwolves are 40-40. The Raptors are 47-33. If Love is so good then why does his team suck? You argue to hell and back that Rubio, Pekovic, Martin and the rest of his supporting cast are all good players. So why does the team suck? I'm really not sure what Kevin Love has to do with this thread. It's also interesting coming from the person who said this: Can we keep this to Batum guys? Or, understandably, DeRozan can come into the conversation, or even other G/F's. But let's let go of the Chris Bosh stuff, at least in this thread. I find it really annoying how petty the stockwatch section has become. I'm definitely done with this thread but the whole section is extremely annoying to keep up with. I think we need a change. I don't know what the solution is though. Exactly... |
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Post by Walt Frazier on Apr 14, 2014 20:19:45 GMT
Whoa, last time JR and Alex agreed on something, JR sent out a valuable pick for pennies on the dollar. Not sure what that means either.
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Post by Walt Frazier on Apr 14, 2014 20:34:32 GMT
Also Alex, by your "best overall statistic", Kevin Love is the 3rd best player in the NBA behind Durant and LeBron. Shall we open up the Kevin Love thread so you can put in a 95 on Love? I said "the best single number advanced stat we currently have". - I'm sorry, I don't use quotes correctly. I was summarizing/paraphrasing your line there, not directly quoting, I understand the confusion and that's on me. If you are going to quote me then please do it correctly. If you came away with the impression that I rely so heavily on the PER for coming up with a player's rating then you should read that post again. - You presented the statistic in a way that said DeRozan was better than Batum. When you point out that DeRozan's PER is better and you also gave DeRozan an 85 and Batum an 83, I would say you are saying that PER shows DeRozan is better. I hope you can at least understand how I concluded what I concluded based on those things.The Timberwolves are 40-40. The Raptors are 47-33. You do know how bad the East still is and how good the West is? How about the TWolves playing in the same division as the 58-22 Thunder and the 53-28 Clippers? Even the 4th team is the Nuggets, who certainly have talent and can play with anyone. While the Raptors play in the same division as the Knicks, Celtics, and 76ers. Maybe that has something to do with it, and the East's general terrible-ness.If Love is so good then why does his team suck? .500 in the West "sucks"? Did I use quotes right that time? Agree to disagree I guess. You argue to hell and back that Rubio, Pekovic, Martin and the rest of his supporting cast are all good players. So why does the team suck? Again, .500 sucks in the West in the NBA? Playing in the same division as the Thunder and Clippers. OK. I think you got fired-up there buddy. If .500 sucks in the West, then the 36-44 Nuggets are an abomination and there is no word for the 10 teams at .400 or worse. Maybe I'm nitpicking on one single word here but you're coming off a bit strong on a .500 team in the tough West. Also, to answer your question another way, it's because their individual skills don't fit together well enough, AND they don't have a good enough coach.I'm really not sure what Kevin Love has to do with this thread. It's also interesting coming from the person who said this: It's quite simple Alex: You used PER to back up your claim that DeRozan is an 85 and Batum an 83, so I showed how PER does not tell us everything. I'd never call Love the 3rd best player in the league just b/c of PER. I will say, I don't think you are saying "well the PER is better so DeRozan is better," but I do think are saying "I think DeRozan is better and here are their PER's which backs up my statement."Can we keep this to Batum guys? Or, understandably, DeRozan can come into the conversation, or even other G/F's. But let's let go of the Chris Bosh stuff, at least in this thread. I find it really annoying how petty the stockwatch section has become. I'm definitely done with this thread but the whole section is extremely annoying to keep up with. I think we need a change. I don't know what the solution is though. I guess you won't be reading any of this but just had to respond in a level-headed nature. Thanks for reading anyone else. |
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Deleted
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Dec 2, 2024 15:18:55 GMT
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Post by Deleted on Apr 14, 2014 20:35:24 GMT
I find it really annoying how petty the stockwatch section has become. I'm definitely done with this thread but the whole section is extremely annoying to keep up with. I think we need a change. I don't know what the solution is though. It's annoying because these comparisons illuminate certain contradictions about the rating system within the league. |
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Post by Walt Frazier on Apr 14, 2014 20:41:53 GMT
I think our single largest problem is that we ignored far too many players for far too long. I'm hoping as we get all of these players up for discussion, if we stay on top of it, we should never have to do nearly this many at the same time again. I picture more of a steady stream starting like mid-season next year, just a few players a week at most.
I'm up for some sort of system, but I also do not know what the answer is there. I can think of some elements that we could use as requirements for posting a thread...but that still leaves everyone's opinions. It is what it is there. We can use all sorts of stats and some will contradict others, and one person's eye-test will contradict another person's eye-test. So, hopefully we get at least 10-15 ratings on each player, and then we just go forward with that. I think ultimately that's the best route. As long as we are getting 10-15 votes per player, we are good.
There are exceptions, like decrease player that seem obvious. The first 6 votes are all the exact same rating, I think we can fairly safely say that player is probably worth that rating or something very close.
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