Nicolas Batum

[Deleted]

[Source] Walt Frazier said:

I think our single largest problem is that we ignored far too many players for far too long. I'm hoping as we get all of these players up for discussion, if we stay on top of it, we should never have to do nearly this many at the same time again. I picture more of a steady stream starting like mid-season next year, just a few players a week at most.

I'm up for some sort of system, but I also do not know what the answer is there. I can think of some elements that we could use as requirements for posting a thread...but that still leaves everyone's opinions. It is what it is there. We can use all sorts of stats and some will contradict others, and one person's eye-test will contradict another person's eye-test. So, hopefully we get at least 10-15 ratings on each player, and then we just go forward with that. I think ultimately that's the best route. As long as we are getting 10-15 votes per player, we are good.

There are exceptions, like decrease player that seem obvious. The first 6 votes are all the exact same rating, I think we can fairly safely say that player is probably worth that rating or something very close.

I dont see why we should discuss each rating decision. That just leads to fighting and most likely the gm will stay with that same decision anyways. As for midseason..I think we should start doing these at the All-Star break. That gives us a very good amount of time to see what players are doing. But like I said the rating should be enough. And I think things will slow down but there's still a lot to catch up on. Honestly like I said before I wish we had a base system to go off of because some players are way off.

[Deleted]

Apr 14, 2014 21:30:00 GMT @griz2385 said:

[Source] Walt Frazier said:

I think our single largest problem is that we ignored far too many players for far too long. I'm hoping as we get all of these players up for discussion, if we stay on top of it, we should never have to do nearly this many at the same time again. I picture more of a steady stream starting like mid-season next year, just a few players a week at most.

I'm up for some sort of system, but I also do not know what the answer is there. I can think of some elements that we could use as requirements for posting a thread...but that still leaves everyone's opinions. It is what it is there. We can use all sorts of stats and some will contradict others, and one person's eye-test will contradict another person's eye-test. So, hopefully we get at least 10-15 ratings on each player, and then we just go forward with that. I think ultimately that's the best route. As long as we are getting 10-15 votes per player, we are good.

There are exceptions, like decrease player that seem obvious. The first 6 votes are all the exact same rating, I think we can fairly safely say that player is probably worth that rating or something very close.

I dont see why we should discuss each rating decision. That just leads to fighting and most likely the gm will stay with that same decision anyways. As for midseason..I think we should start doing these at the All-Star break. That gives us a very good amount of time to see what players are doing. But like I said the rating should be enough. And I think things will slow down but there's still a lot to catch up on. Honestly like I said before I wish we had a base system to go off of because some players are way off.

I think arguing over this stuff keeps us active which can be a challenge in a league like this one. Ian's a pretty smart guy!

[Jeremiah Hill]

If there is just a rating and no discussion then it would just be PJ Tucker 99. I think presenting stats and arguments helps support your feelings on a player. I'm not going to lie, I live in the Eastern time zone so I don't get to watch nearly as much Western Conference basketball. It is good to know what someone thinks about a player if they watch them a lot.

[Deleted]

Thats fine but you guyd take it too far sometimes. And exactly what Jeremiah said..he doesn't know much about West players...of course his personal ratings would be greater for those of the east.

[Deleted]

Apr 15, 2014 0:12:50 GMT @griz2385 said:

Thats fine but you guyd take it too far sometimes. And exactly what Jeremiah said..he doesn't know much about West players...of course his personal ratings would be greater for those of the east.

Walt and I are being what people call "analytical" which is something other GM's should take note of.

[Deleted]

Most people dont have time to sit around and put together numbers to back up arguments. Its not always about the numbers and it doesnt have to be. You can watch a guy play and know hes special. Actually seeing it and knowing how good a player is, thats good enough for me.

[Walt Frazier]

Apr 15, 2014 0:41:42 GMT @griz2385 said:

Most people dont have time to sit around and put together numbers to back up arguments. Its not always about the numbers and it doesnt have to be. You can watch a guy play and know hes special. Actually seeing it and knowing how good a player is, thats good enough for me.

That's fine JR but that's still just one element and that's still just one person's opinion. And you can watch a player with 10 people and they may all come away with a different opinion. So, it's a part of it but no single element is the end-all, be-all.

[Deleted]

Apr 15, 2014 0:41:42 GMT @griz2385 said:

Most people dont have time to sit around and put together numbers to back up arguments. Its not always about the numbers and it doesnt have to be. You can watch a guy play and know hes special. Actually seeing it and knowing how good a player is, thats good enough for me.

I don't have time yet I do it!

[Clyde Drexler]

Derozan and Batum are different players and have completely different roles. Make Derozan the third option on Portland and he's going to look as efficient as Batum. You put Batum as the first option on the Raptors... not sure how well he'd do.

83

[Charles Barkley]

83

[Walt Frazier]

Apr 15, 2014 2:30:29 GMT Clyde Drexler said:

Derozan and Batum are different players and have completely different roles. Make Derozan the third option on Portland and he's going to look as efficient as Batum. You put Batum as the first option on the Raptors... not sure how well he'd do.

83

Not arguing with you, but we do have some shred of evidence at how Batum handles an increased scoring load. 19 games this year where he scored 18 or more (significantly more than he usually scores), he did it while shooting 54.7%.


Also, my argument is not that Batum is a better scorer than DeRozan, even though he's clearly a helluva lot better 3pt shooter and they seem to be about equal from the line. My argument is Batum does everything else better including the entire other half of the game, defense!

To each their own, I like DeRozan but my brain just can't comprehend how DeRozan is better than Batum OVERALL, not scoring but as an overall player.

[Clyde Drexler]

Basically for me since it's different roles and different styles. Batum is better defensively because he has to be. With all these numbers posted they are amazing for references, but actually watching a player is huge for me as well. Compare Batum and George's number and Batum might come out as the better overall player as well.

I completely get at what your saying and I see it, I think Batum and Derozan are extremely close. The number one option bit and leading them to the playoffs just has impressed me and I don't even like Derozan that much.

[Walt Frazier]

Apr 15, 2014 3:09:18 GMT Clyde Drexler said:

Basically for me since it's different roles and different styles. Batum is better defensively because he has to be. With all these numbers posted they are amazing for references, but actually watching a player is huge for me as well. Compare Batum and George's number and Batum might come out as the better overall player as well.

I completely get at what your saying and I see it, I think Batum and Derozan are extremely close. The number one option bit and leading them to the playoffs just has impressed me and I don't even like Derozan that much.

Fair enough. I actually think the big difference in Toronto is Kyle Lowry, plus Jonas V has improved some this year, but DeRozan does score the most. Has to be one of the least efficient #1's in the league haha.

I'm just looking at the reality of the individual statistics Ian is going to have to use to get DeRozan above Batum.

Rebounding
Passing
3pt
Defensive ratings

All going to favor Batum. Athleticism should be very close. Are we going to give DeRozan a 3pt shot in this game to help him get to an equal or better rating to Batum? Make him more efficient than he actually is? If he comes out better in almost any of the non-scoring stats than Batum then we are doing an injustice to real-life.

[Brian Scalabrine]

83 agree with Alex

[Walt Frazier]

Very serious question - What attributes do the DeRozan fans plan to have above Batum? What areas of the game is he better than Batum in where we can give him enough of an advantage where he comes out above Batum in rating.

[Jeremiah Hill]

Apr 15, 2014 0:46:53 GMT Walt Frazier said:

Apr 15, 2014 0:41:42 GMT @griz2385 said:

Most people dont have time to sit around and put together numbers to back up arguments. Its not always about the numbers and it doesnt have to be. You can watch a guy play and know hes special. Actually seeing it and knowing how good a player is, thats good enough for me.

That's fine JR but that's still just one element and that's still just one person's opinion. And you can watch a player with 10 people and they may all come away with a different opinion. So, it's a part of it but no single element is the end-all, be-all.

THIS THIS THIS, for example, when people watch Kyrie Irving people were seeing Allen Iverson. I see a mopey diva, which would be fine if he was actually as good as Allen Iverson was, but he's not even close. He's not even better than Kemba Walker. 

[Jeremiah Hill]

Apr 15, 2014 13:41:45 GMT Walt Frazier said:

Very serious question - What attributes do the DeRozan fans plan to have above Batum? What areas of the game is he better than Batum in where we can give him enough of an advantage where he comes out above Batum in rating.

Just count up the ratings and see what we are sitting at with both players. I don't think you'll be as pissed after you do that. 

[Walt Frazier]

I think they're both at an 85. I still see a lot of attributes for Batum that should be ahead of DeRozan. Not even sure how they will be even in the ratings w/o giving DeRozan a non-real advantage somewhere but we'll see I guess.

I'm talking about people putting DeRozan over Batum, just wondering where they think DeRozan is that much better in enough areas that he could have a better rating.

Overall DeRozan is an 84.64 and Batum an 84.5

I really don't see how DeRozan does enough to be better than Batum that's all. Can't give him an advantage in any of the rebounding or passing or defensive areas, and I don't think we can responsibly give him an advantage in any of the athletic/jump etc areas, not enough to be worth much in an overall rating anyway. Or in 3pt shooting or range. I'd be really super interested to see their total attributes after this rating change is completed, it looks like a problem to me.

[Walt Frazier]

Here are the attribute areas

FG/Jump Shooting - DeRozan I guess...Batum shoots 42.6 on Non-Paint/Non-3pt shots, DeRozan shoots 40.5 on the same shots, but he takes a lot more.
Three Point Shooting - Batum (Almost a 7% difference right now)
Inside Scoring - Batum...He shoots 69.4% in the Paint, DeRozan shoots 56.6%
Shooting Range - Batum
Free Throw - Even
Dunking - Even (I can post a Batum dunk video too!)
Ball Handling (passing) - Batum
Dribbling - Even
Offensive Awareness - IMO it's Batum but you could call this even or maybe give Derozan an advantage

Stealing - Even
Blocking - Batum
Offensive Rebounding - Batum
Defensive Rebounding - Batum
Defensive Awareness - Batum

Speed - Even
Quickness - Even
Jumping - Even
Strength - Even
Hardiness - DeRozan I guess, though Batum played through multiple wrist ailments all last year. His shot suffered but it takes a lot to take that guy out.
Fatigue - This and Hardiness are where we would have to make the most advantage to DeRozan, he just doesn't have enough areas otherwise. And since we don't use fatigue or injuries it wouldn't have an affect on the game.

If people can show proof that Derozan is better than Batum in a lot of these areas and I am totally off-base, please do, I'm looking forward to it.

[Walt Frazier]

Changed my mind on Offensive Awareness, it's clearly Batum. Look at this guy against the Spurs none-the-less. He controls the offense a lot of times, and he just does anything out there. Whatever the Blazers need he does it. Passes as well as any PG I've seen, can rebound in double digits, can score from anywhere on the court, great finishing in the lane and smooth 3pt shot. 2nd Link is Batum putting up 21 against another good team, the Mavericks.

[Jeremiah Hill]

Lol, I honestly thought that Batum would come out to an 84 and DD would come out as an 83.

The main difference between the two is that one is slightly more athletic but can't shoot the 3 but is the #1 option, the other can shoot the 3 but is a role player who happens to be a great passer. 

[Walt Frazier]

Apr 15, 2014 16:14:39 GMT Jeremiah Hill said:

Lol, I honestly thought that Batum would come out to an 84 and DD would come out as an 83.

The main difference between the two is that one is slightly more athletic but can't shoot the 3 but is the #1 option, the other can shoot the 3 but is a role player who happens to be a great passer. 

And a great rebounder. I disagree with Role Player, there is just a lot of talent on the Blazers. He can score 20, he can rebound 10+ (did it for a whole month!), he can pass as well as or better than most PG's in the league, he plays defense, like actually plays defense lol.

If he did any one of those things he'd be a role player. Nick Young is a role player. Come off the bench and score, don't do anything else, and we don't care if you shoot 11-30 as long as you actually get some points on the board.

Reggie Evans is a role player who rebounds.

Anyway, Batum can literally do everything out on the court. This is similar to Chris Bosh honestly in that he just happens to be the 3rd option to two extremely talented dudes.

[Walt Frazier]

Apr 15, 2014 2:30:29 GMT Clyde Drexler said:

Derozan and Batum are different players and have completely different roles. Make Derozan the third option on Portland and he's going to look as efficient as Batum. You put Batum as the first option on the Raptors... not sure how well he'd do.

83

DeRozan may increase his efficiency in your scenario, but not his 3pt shot, not his rebounding by this much, not his defense by this much, and he doesn't have Batum's passing acumen. And when Batum is asked to score more he actually has been MORE efficient haha.

[Clyde Drexler]

Haha I completely understand what your saying because you've posted a hundred different stats a hundred times

I just have never been a fan of Batum, never liked him. I've seen games where he's padded stats, it's just my opinion haha. I wouldn't say I'm biased either because I've grown to like the Trailblazers since being the GM of them here.

Is Batum better all-around? Sure the stats show that yes, I haven't seen Derozan play enough to fully think that. Batum is asked to rebound when Derozan is not. When the stats show that Batum is the better rebounder, Derozan could be putting up those same numbers if he was asked to be the third option and to rebound as much as he could as well. That's all I was saying.

[Walt Frazier]

Apr 17, 2014 2:57:03 GMT Clyde Drexler said:

Haha I completely understand what your saying because you've posted a hundred different stats a hundred times

I just have never been a fan of Batum, never liked him. I've seen games where he's padded stats, it's just my opinion haha. I wouldn't say I'm biased either because I've grown to like the Trailblazers since being the GM of them here.

Is Batum better all-around? Sure the stats show that yes, I haven't seen Derozan play enough to fully think that. Batum is asked to rebound when Derozan is not. When the stats show that Batum is the better rebounder, Derozan could be putting up those same numbers if he was asked to be the third option and to rebound as much as he could as well. That's all I was saying.

Eh, we could play that game all day though. Shall we give everyone in the league the same rating because, if they were asked to, they could rebound as much as "player x" or get as many assists as "player y", or would have the same efficiency as "player z" if they were asked to score more?

I see what I see, Batum is the batter passer and rebounder, 3 point shooter, and defender. DeRozan may be a "better scorer" but he does it less efficiently from what we can see. I'd also say that as soon as we factor in how DeRozan shoots worse from the field but takes more shots, so that evens that out, it creates an even larger gap in their 3pt ratings, as Batum shoots over twice as many 3's and makes them at a much greater rate.

I posted a slew of the actual rating attributes that Ian will be using to change players' overall ratings. I can't honestly find that many areas where DeRozan has proven to be actually better. We'll see.