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Post by Jeremiah Hill on Mar 13, 2014 15:33:16 GMT
Shooting 76% from the line in this league, seriously?
He's been sub 62% for the past 3 years.
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Deleted
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Nov 27, 2024 8:28:47 GMT
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Post by Deleted on Mar 13, 2014 15:41:05 GMT
I think he is the most overrated player maybe ever.
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Post by Jeremiah Hill on Mar 13, 2014 15:43:22 GMT
I agree.
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Post by Jeremiah Hill on Mar 13, 2014 15:48:18 GMT
As it stands right now, he's essentially a less efficient Tony Allen with better athleticism and passing.
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Post by James Kay on Mar 13, 2014 17:20:21 GMT
Maybe his FT% needs a decrease but he is the best glue guy in the entire league. Arguably the best perimeter defender, too. Often times players need a little time to adjust to roles in new teams, and Iggy has been bounced around from PHI to DEN to GSW in three years. From this article from two weeks ago: "A few facts about Golden State’s defense and Iguodala. The Warriors were ranked fourth on D before he strained his hamstring on Nov. 22. During his 12-game absence earlier in the season, they tumbled to seventh. They’ve since recovered to become the third-best defensive team in the league, and tops in the West. The Warriors have allowed opposing offenses 7.4 fewer points per 100 possessions with Iguodala on the floor. Due in large part to Golden State’s defensive performance when he’s in, Iguodala has compiled the league’s top plus/minus while also grading out as the top player in adjusted plus/minus." espn.go.com/blog/truehoop/post/_/id/66294/in-defense-of-andre-iguodalaI think he's fine right where he is. |
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Post by Jeremiah Hill on Mar 13, 2014 17:31:33 GMT
I'm wasn't talking his overall I don't really care what that is at. I'm just saying his biggest weaknesses is FT shooting and it's a trend not a slump. Its not that he's been bounced around he declined offensively other than assists each year his last 5 years in Philly.
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Post by Clyde Drexler on Mar 14, 2014 3:20:13 GMT
Yeah I'm not too sure how Iggy is still rated an 88.
Sure he's got great defence and is one of the better "glue guys", but does that warrant you an 88...?
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Post by Charles Barkley on Mar 14, 2014 5:18:44 GMT
A quick look at basketball-reference.com shows that his numbers have declined this season, and we are a smidge less than 80% through the season. Shooting just over 61% from the line, he is on pace to have less total rebounds (both offensively and defensively), assists, steals, and blocks when compared to last season. It also looks like he will have career lows in some of those categories too. He has missed 12 games as well.
While he still is an elite defender, his numbers have gone down. Partly because of age and a diminished skill set and partly because he isn't asked to do as much. He doesn't need "nerfed" to hell, but he doesn't deserve to be an 88.
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Post by James Kay on Mar 14, 2014 17:39:34 GMT
sportsillustrated.cnn.com/nba/news/20140314/andre-iguodala-golden-state-warriors/Here's another article posted just today. Iggy leads the league in +/- and it isn't even close. Do you guys read what I post or no? Plus, he's had some VERY clutch plays this year including two game winners against OKC. or at least one and the other would've been a game winner had Westbrook not hit a buzzer beater fadeaway corner three.
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Post by James Kay on Mar 14, 2014 17:41:19 GMT
Numbers aren't everything, his current role doesn't require box-score marks, but his contributions to the team he's on warrant an 88 without a doubt.
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Post by Alex English on Mar 14, 2014 18:38:30 GMT
Plus/minus is not a very reliable statistic. There are so many factors in play that you can't confidently reduce everything to just 'on-court' vs 'off-court'. Even in the first post where the article says "Iguodala has compiled the league’s top plus/minus while also grading out as the top player in adjusted plus/minus." Well that adjusted plus/minus is actually just pace adjusted, which helps, but still doesn't include any other variables. Here is a better plus/minus rating system: www.82games.com/1314/ROLRTG8.HTMThere Iguodala comes out at 13th in the NBA, which is still really good, but he's not even the best on his team in that ranking, Curry is. He's definitely one of the best perimeter defenders in the NBA but he is not worth an 88. I don't think he has ever been worthy of that rating. He is a fantastic piece to have to compliment other scoring players but he is too limited on offense to deserve his 88. It's similar to Noah's issues imo. I'd give him like an 83. His defensive awareness should one of the highest in the league but he should suffer from lower ratings in offensive categories. |
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Post by James Kay on Mar 14, 2014 21:02:24 GMT
Here is a better plus/minus rating system: www.82games.com/1314/ROLRTG8.HTMThere Iguodala comes out at 13th in the NBA, which is still really good, but he's not even the best on his team in that ranking, Curry is. Yes, he is thirteenth in net production. But using that list he is also 1st in net On Court/Off Court. Also, RAPM, regularized adjusted plus-minus, is a better way of ranking players' impact on the court and still has Iggy as #1. #2 is CP3, #3 is Lebron, #4 is Pat Beverly #5 is Love. stats-for-the-nba.appspot.com/ratings/2014.htmlClick on other years to see what type of players usually rank high on RAPM. stats-for-the-nba.appspot.com/Last year (2012-2013) the top 5 were Lebron, Paul, Durant, Duncan, Gasol. The year before (2011-2012) Lebron, Dwight, Paul, Duncan, Love They year before (2010-2011) Dwight, Lebron, Paul, Dirk, Manu |
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Post by Alex English on Mar 14, 2014 22:42:55 GMT
Yea, this is the one I was talking about. RAPM just takes the regular plus/minus stat and adjusts it to per 100 possessions. That will only take into account the pace that each team plays at. It's a correlation vs causation problem. There is so much information left out that you can't take all that much meaning from it. Is the player playing against the starters or the bench? Which specific player is he guarding? Which specific player is guarding him? How good are his teammates? What is coach focusing on that game? Take Manu Ginobili for example. He is 6th in that ranking. Well Manu doesn't start for the Spurs, but everyone knows he's one of their best players. So when he is coming into the game probably half way through the first quarter, he is matched up with the bench players for the other team. Or look at Miami, anyone on the court with Lebron, Wade and Bosh will have a hugely inflated plus/minus rating. It does nothing to isolate the player and remove external factors. |
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Post by James Kay on Mar 14, 2014 23:28:33 GMT
Yea, this is the one I was talking about. RAPM just takes the regular plus/minus stat and adjusts it to per 100 possessions. That will only take into account the pace that each team plays at. It's a correlation vs causation problem. There is so much information left out that you can't take all that much meaning from it. Is the player playing against the starters or the bench? Which specific player is he guarding? Which specific player is guarding him? How good are his teammates? What is coach focusing on that game? Take Manu Ginobili for example. He is 6th in that ranking. Well Manu doesn't start for the Spurs, but everyone knows he's one of their best players. So when he is coming into the game probably half way through the first quarter, he is matched up with the bench players for the other team. Or look at Miami, anyone on the court with Lebron, Wade and Bosh will have a hugely inflated plus/minus rating. It does nothing to isolate the player and remove external factors. Alex, that's not how APM or RAPM work. godismyjudgeok.com/DStats/2011/nba-stats/a-review-of-adjusted-plusminus-and-stabilization/It's more complicated than adjusting for 100 possessions. |
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Post by Alex English on Mar 15, 2014 1:28:22 GMT
You are right, there was no explanation there and I just assumed based on the table headings. It is adjusted per 100 possessions but after a linear regression analysis that adjusts for other players on the court. That's a lot better but there are still issues with that. Collinearity can be a huge problem with regression, even more so with dummy variables, at least in my experience. Also like that link discusses it really takes years to get a legitimate sample size, especially with regards to opponents since players only play each other so few times over the season. |
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Post by James Kay on Mar 15, 2014 2:26:30 GMT
You're absolutely right. All I'm saying is that it at least strongly suggests that Iggy has an extreme impact on his team's performance. After he left Philly and Denver, their defensive rank dropped significantly.
There are weakness to every statistic. I just think that being #1 on so many overall-contribution metrics is something to note and I think that he deserves a much higher rating than the traditional box score would suggest.
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Post by James Kay on Mar 16, 2014 2:58:45 GMT
83 from me. He's still one of the best perimeter defenders in the league and a great glue guy but I really don't see much difference between him and say Shawn Marion. I really don't see much difference between him and say Shawn Marion. Oh. My. God. |
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Post by Walt Frazier on Mar 16, 2014 4:26:38 GMT
84.5 :-p
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Post by Shaquille O'Neal on Mar 18, 2014 19:45:22 GMT
84
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Post by Andrei Kirilenko on Mar 19, 2014 23:38:13 GMT
Basically this thread is all the good teams in the West saying we need to decrease one of the 22-0 Golden State Warriors' players... and James Kay fighting against them.
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Post by Jeremiah Hill on Mar 19, 2014 23:41:44 GMT
Maybe people from the East just need to be more active.
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Post by Alex English on Mar 19, 2014 23:45:06 GMT
Basically this thread is all the good teams in the West saying we need to decrease one of the 22-0 Golden State Warriors' players... and James Kay fighting against them. The Grizzlies and Rockets are good? Who knew? I think you are attributing ulterior motives where there aren't any. |
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Post by James Kay on Mar 20, 2014 0:03:22 GMT
Basically this thread is all the good teams in the West saying we need to decrease one of the 22-0 Golden State Warriors' players... and James Kay fighting against them. hahah someone needs to stick up for dre. Tired of all these responses without justification though. I've been posting verified statistics that show Iggy to be one of the most valuable players in the league, and no one besides Alex has even bothered to respond to them. |
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Post by Jeremiah Hill on Mar 20, 2014 0:09:28 GMT
I just want his FT reduced, that one is inarguable. He's still declined on the offensive end ppg wise over a long period, maybe that has to do with taking on more of a distributor type role but his percentages aren't that good anymore either. I'm not saying should be dropped down to a 60. I'm just saying his FT needs lowered.
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Post by James Kay on Mar 20, 2014 0:11:26 GMT
I just want his FT reduced, that one is inarguable. He's still declined on the offensive end ppg wise over a long period, maybe that has to do with taking on more of a distributor type role but his percentages aren't that good anymore either. I'm not saying should be dropped down to a 60. I'm just saying his FT needs lowered. Fair point. His FT% has been weak his whole career. |
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Chris Mullin
 Golden State Warriors
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Posts: 1,303
Feb 19, 2024 21:58:28 GMT
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Post by Chris Mullin on Mar 20, 2014 22:49:52 GMT
Without getting long winded, a few things...
Yes Iguodala's ppg is at an all time low, but hes only attempting 7.5 shots ppg while making 46.9% of those shots. Since going to Golden State he has obviously taken a back seat to several other Warriors in regards to scoring. He is shooting right around his career average of 46%. If he was on a less offensively talented team Im very confident he would be scoring more than he currently is.
He is also shooting 35% from 3 this season which is slightly higher than his career average of 33%. Yes he has shot free throws poorly over the last 3 seasons (including this season)but over his career he is a career 72% free throw shooter.
His assists & rebound averages this year are slightly lower than they have been in the past but so are his turnovers per game. Slightly reduced assists I believe are largely due to Steph Curry having the ball in his hands quite a bit.
Defensively as James previously stated Iguodala's impact on a team can not necessarily be measured in typical box score stats. You can see his importance to a team if you have a basic understanding of man-to-man defense and the positive cumulative effect it can have on overall team defense if you have the ability to guard an opposing team's best wing 1 on 1 (as opposed to having to double team, etc..) like you can with Iguodala.
Also, not that this necessarily means anything, but Iguodala was also a member of the 2012 USA Olympic basketball team that won a gold medal. Point being is that he must do some things awfully well if he was selected to be a part of that team given the other talented players across the league.
In conclusion, is Iguodala an 88 rated caliber player? Probably not, but IMO he should not be any lower than an 86/87.
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Post by Jeremiah Hill on Mar 20, 2014 23:22:20 GMT
What about the 4 years of decline while he was the main guy in Philly?
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Chris Mullin
Golden State Warriors
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Posts: 1,303
Feb 19, 2024 21:58:28 GMT
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Post by Chris Mullin on Mar 20, 2014 23:33:02 GMT
What about the 4 years of decline while he was the main guy in Philly? Im assuming you are referring to his last 4 years in Philly. Yes his points per game declined over his last 4 seasons in Philly, but so did his shot attempts. Over that 4 year stretch he went from 14 shots per game to 10 shots per game while his FG & 3pt %'s stayed consistent for the most part. Yes his FT % has dropped over the last 3 seasons cant argue that, but he is a career 72% free throw shooter over 9 seasons. His rebounds and assists stayed around the same during that 4 year stretch as well. So yes his scoring declined over his last 4 seasons in Philly but so did his shot attempts. |
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Post by Andrei Kirilenko on Mar 20, 2014 23:37:45 GMT
One gripe I have is that we rated Paul George an 88. They are similar on both offense and defense. I'd give Iggy the slight edge on offense and George the slight edge on defense, but it is close on each.
Why the decline for Iggy but not PG? Sure, Iggy has had some injury problems this year, but PG is shooting 41% since the all-star break.
As I said in the PG thread, I think he should be rated an 84-85. I'll stick with that for Iggy as well.
This is not my endorsement to drop Iggy though, this is my endorsement to keep him the same rating as Paul George. So 88 right now.
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Chris Mullin
Golden State Warriors
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Posts: 1,303
Feb 19, 2024 21:58:28 GMT
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Post by Chris Mullin on Mar 20, 2014 23:46:05 GMT
This is not my endorsement to drop Iggy though, this is my endorsement to keep him the same rating as Paul George. So 88 right now. +1 |
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