Nikola Pekovic

[Larry Bird]

I think he should be raised to an 85.

89 Pau Gasol 17 10.2 19.14
92 Dwight Howard 18.3 12.3 21.31
88 Chris Bosh 16.6 6.8 20.08
84 Al Jefferson 19.6 10.6 21.77
83 Joakim Noah 11.7 11.5 19.16
81 Roy Hibbert 12.3 7.7 16.80

Here are stats from the players who are some of the better "centers" in the league.

I am not trying to say that Pekovic is on par with Howard who is arguably the best center in the league or Al Jefferson who has the best of these compiled stats. However, having a stat line of 18 ppg 9.1 rpb 20.84 PER he deserves a lot more than his 78 ranking.

Pekovic has better stats than both Noah and Hibbert, and they are an 83 and 81 respectively. Do they need an increase in their rating? Probably. They are leaders on their teams. Noah is the Bulls and Hibbert is the defensive leader for the East leading Pacers.

[Andrei Kirilenko]

He's already raised to an 81.

Like I said in the Kevin Love threads, we can't keep putting all these Timberwolves at 80+. They don't win games and flat out aren't that good. Their stats are increased because the Timberwolves don't play defense and get a ton of offensive possessions. Kevin Love dropped 43 and 19 last night... and they lost. Again. We can't argue that Love is good and the supporting staff is not but then also argue to have the supporting staff all rated 80+.


He's an 81 right now. I'm not gonna argue that he should be put back down to a 78 because I've learned people just take it personally. But I definitely don't think he should be increased at all.

[Larry Bird]

Ok, I found the other thread where he ws raised.
He was not raised in the salary page, though.

There must be a curse in Minnesota.
Rubio is a solid PG.
Martin is throwing in the points.
Brewer is playing decently.
Love is a beast and double-double machine.
Pekovic is top 8 center in the league.
Adelman is a really good coach.

[Walt Frazier]

This is the first year that martin/Love/Pek have played together. Last year Pek was breaking out but Love was hurt, and Martin wasn't there.

This year Martin signs, and Love is healthy, and they're 23-24 in the West. Carmelo has "led" the Knicks to a 19-28 record in the HORRIBLE East. Guess Melo should be a 85 or lower now using Barber's flawless logic.

Kyrie's Cavs are 16-31 in the East.

I think it's an easy cop-out for someone who doesn't actually watch games or dig into the impact a player has on the game to just say "oh, bad record, bad player."

[Andrei Kirilenko]

Yup clearly we need to rate Melo an 85 or lower. Despite making the playoffs every single year of his career, this bad stretch clearly defines him as a lower-tier player who needs to be immediately downgraded.

And you'd know that Kyrie has been struggling hard this season if you actually watched basketball games. It's not a winning environment, and Kyrie has to take some responsibility for that.

Anyway, like I said, people take this stuff way too personally. I like to give my opinions in these threads because I like to think I have a lot of knowledge about this stuff, but I'm tired of having my character attacked when people disagree with my opinions. Grow up.

[Deleted]

I kind of like Barber's argument because its thought provoking, but I think Love maybe more debatable than Pekovic. Honestly, I think Dwight, Bosh, and Gasol, especially Bosh, should be lowered before raising Pekovic. Honestly, I think we should wait and see if A. he keeps putting up these numbers and B. if the T-wolves become a better team.

[Walt Frazier]

Barber, I just think you are trying to simplify it too much, so I gave it back to you the same way.

There are clearly many more sides to the argument than just a team's record. As I showed.

I was not seriously suggesting a decrease for Melo, etc, just saying a team's record can be due to a myriad of factors.

[Deleted]

Need more ratings for decision..Thanks SA GM

[Deleted]

sports.yahoo.com/nba/players/4493/;_ylt=A0LEVjnuB4ZTw0QAXkkPxQt.;_ylu=X3oDMTBya3R2ZmV1BHNlYwNzcgRwb3MDNARjb2xvA2JmMQR2dGlkAw--

[Jeremiah Hill]

81 the guy is a good scoring Center but leaves a lot to be desired on the defensive end.

[Clyde Drexler]

Yeah I think he's good at an 81

[Charles Barkley]

Going to bring this back up again, because I think I have a valid argument and think he should be raised. 

I am going to compare Nikola Pekovic to Al Jefferson, and some of the other bigs in the league, but primarily Big Al.

So the following is Big Al Jefferson's 2013-2014 season stats, and yes, I know Big Al has a much longer track record than Pek, and that will be taken into account when I ask for this increase.


Al Jefferson Per Game Numbers

 G   GS  MP    FG   FGA   FG%  3P  3PA  3P%  2P   2PA   2P%   FT  FTA   FT%   ORB   DRB   TRB  AST   STL  BLK  TOV  PTS

 73 73  35.0  9.6  18.8   50.9  0.0  0.2  20.0  9.5  18.6  51.2  2.6  3.8   69.0   2.1     8.7   10.8   2.1   0.9   1.1   1.7  21.8


Ok, this was the first year since 2007-2008, that Jefferson was a 20 and 10 guy. He's had good years, no doubt, but just pointing that out. Notice, Jefferson played 35 minutes per game.

Pekovic's Per Game Numbers 

G   GS MP  FG  FGA   FG%   3P  3PA   3P%   2P  2PA  2P%  FT  FTA  FT%  ORB  DRB  TRB  AST  STL  BLK  TOV   PTS

54 54 30.8 7.0 13.0  54.1   0.0  0.0   N/A   7.0  13.0  54.1 3.4  4.6  74.7  3.8   4.9   8.7   0.9    0.6   0.4  1.6   17.5

You can deduce whatever you'd like from these numbers, but what I see is a more efficient big man. Higher FG%, higher 2P%, higher FT%. Pek got to the line more and played less minutes. Pek played less minutes than Al, had less shot attempts, and came up short in the AST, STL, BLK categories while also having more turnovers. Remember now, Pek is the second option in Minny, and he is really the only low post presence they have. Just think what will happen when Love is inevitably traded and Pek is the number 1 option and has a rim protector in Dieng to help him in the paint. Does Pek come up short here? Yeah, but he also is surprisingly closer to Al's stats than one would think. I don't think the difference in these stats constitutes a 7 point difference between the two.

I will dig deeper because everyone knows that per game numbers aren't the end all be all. For the sake of the argument, I am leaving out 3PT numbers, which is actually good for the opposition in this, because Al actually attempted 3's this year (0.2 per game).

Big Al's Per 36


FG   FGA   FG%   2P    2PA    2P%   FT    FTA   FT%   ORB    DRB    TRB    AST   STL   BLK     TOV      PTS

9.9  19.4  50.9   9.8   19.2   51.2   2.7   3.9    69.0    2.2     9.0     11.2   2.2    0.9    1.1      1.7      22.5


Ok, so, Jefferson's numbers barely change here, as he played 35.0 MPG this season, so his Per 36 numbers aren't a big change.

Pek's Per 36

G   GS     FG    FGA   FG%   2P    2PA    2P%     FT   FTA     FT%   ORB   DRB   TRB    AST   STL    BLK   TOV    PTS

54  54    8.2   15.2   54.1    8.2   15.2   54.1    4.0   5.4   74.7    4.5    5.7    10.1      1.1   0.6     0.5    1.8    20.4


Here, we can see that Pek is still more efficient but takes 4 less shots, but he gets to the line more, and shoots better from the chairty stripe. He gets 1.1 less rebound, 0.6 less blocks, 0.1 more turnovers, 2.1 less points, 1.1 less assists. Once again, Pek's numbers are lower, but are they 7 rating points lower? I think not. 

Moving on to the advanced stats now, here is what we see:

Al's Advanced Stats

              %      %                        %      %       %       %        %       %     %       %
G    PER  TS     eFG     FTr  3PAr  ORB    DRB    TRB    AST     STL     BLK   TOV  USG  ORtg  DRtg  OWS  DWS  WS WS/48

73  22.7 .532   .510  .201 .011    6.9     28.3   17.5   12.8     1.4      2.4   7.6   29.3  105   100    3.1     4.7    7.8  .146


Pek's Advanced Stats

              %   %                      %     %      %     %     %    %     %     %
G  PER    TS   eFG   FTr  3PAr  ORB  DRB   TRB   AST   STL  BLK  TOV  USG  ORtg  DRtg  OWS  DWS   WS  WS/48

54 20.7 .582 .541 .355 .000   13.1  17.6  15.3  5.2    0.9  1.1   9.4   22.9  117    108    4.3    1.5      5.9  .169



Pek falls short in the DRB% and TRB% categories, as well as the AST% statistic. However, Pek has a 12 point advantage in ORTG, an 8 point disadvantage in DRTG. However, Pek is 1.8 total WS short of Al's but has a 0.23 advantage in WS/48. 

The stats speak for themselves, I don't need to tell you what they all mean. Does Pek fall short in some categories? Yes. Is it due to the fact that he is a 2nd option, or even a 3rd option? Maybe. Did Pek miss time this season? Yes. 

From my standpoint, Pek falls short in Blocks, Steals, and Assists. But he is very very close to Al in rebounds and points and even surpasses him in some important categories.

Therefore, I do not feel that the difference between Pek and Al is 7 points. No where near a 7 point difference and it is an injustice. 

I'd like to propose a rating of 86 for Pek. He doesn't have the passing attributes. And to the naked eye, it may appear that Al plays better defense because he gets more blocks and steals. But one must remember, the T'Wolves run a 4 out and 1 in offense, and Kevin Love isn't a great defender. Pek has a much better DRTG than Al but some how falls short of Al's defensive win shares, which I attribute to Love not being a great defender and Pek having to step up. This explains why his DRTG is higher but DWS is lower.

I vote an 86 for Pek. Thank you for your time.

[Jeremiah Hill]

The Charles Barkley rating system: Festive as fuck!

[Jeremiah Hill]

Look at Blocks, Steals, Defensive Win Shares (DWS) and Defensive Rating (DRtg lower is better) and the fact that Al Jefferson proved that he can carry an offense to the playoffs AND be the anchor of a top 10 defensive unit.

While Pekovic plays as the second option and was the anchor for a bottom 5 defensive unit.

That's why Pekovic is an 81 and Al Jeff is an 88.

[Charles Barkley]

Jefferson's first two years he was a rookie and Boston, didn't play much but they made the playoffs, he didn't carry them then. In 2006-2007, Jefferson led the Celtics to the lotto. He didn't make the playoffs again until 2011-2012 in the lock out shortened season when he had Millsap with him, they were swept in the first round by the Spurs. He then made it back to the playoffs with Charlotte this season. Please take of note that Big Al went from the West, to the East this past season and wouldn't have made the playoffs in the West with that record. Forget the fact that the schedule is unbalanced so that teams in the East play more teams in the East. So his stats are skewed.

By your point, he wouldn't have been deserving of an 88 til this season. Because it is the first time he has been the focal point of an offense. And, of course his stats went back up playing in the East. He didn't have to bang with Z-Bo and Gasol, or Boogie, or Dwight. I mean, who are the big men in the East?

If you're going to dismiss what I said, at least have a valid reason to dismiss it. So Pek comes up short in some stats. I'm not asking him to be an 88, on Al's level. I just simply said look, this guy is 7 points higher than Pek and the stats don't reflect a 7 point rating difference in my opinion.

[Charles Barkley]

Another point of reference:

Hibbert (81) Eastern Conference (EC)
PPG    RPG    BLKPG    PER
10.8   6.6      2.2      13.54

Pekovic (81)  Western Conference (WC)
PPG    RPG   BLKPG  PER
17.4    8.7     0.4    20.72

One of these two does not deserve to be an 81, take your pick.

Edit: To continue in this fashion...

Tyson Chandler (82)  (EC)
PPG  RPG    BLKPG   PER
8.7   9.6       1.1     16.48

David Lee (85) (WC)
PPG    RPG    BLKPG    PER
18.2   9.3       0.4      19.21

Andrew Bogut (82 soon to be an 81) (WC)
PPG    RPG    BLKPG    PER
7.3     10.0     1.8     17.11

Pau Gasol (86) (WC)
PPG    RPG    BLKPG    PER
17.4    9.7     1.5      19.34

Tim Duncan (86)  (WC)
PPG    RPG    BLKPG    PER
15.1   9.7      1.9      21.40

So, Chandler scores nearly 10 points less but gets a board and a block more than Pek, David Lee gets about 1 point and half a board more than Pek, Bogut gets 10 points less, 1.3 rebounds more and 1.4 blocks more, Pau gets 1 board more and about 1 block more. Duncan scores 2 points less, gets 1 more board and about 1.5 more blocks per game, does that represent 5 rating points? 

I just don't see how these stats represent such a discrepancy in rating. I mean, is 10 points less, but a board and a block more deserving of an 82? Whats that make Pek? David Lee has 4 OVR points on Pek, is that worth 1 point and 1 rebound? Does 10 points per game less but 1 board and 1 block more make them equals? In Pau's case, does 1 board and 1 block represent 5 OVR rating points?

I get that these are just 4 simple stats here, and the advanced metrics will say things. And I get that some of these guys are "proven" but, in my opinion, if you have a year in which you produce what is representative of an 80, you should be rated an 80. I'm not asking for ratings to vary each month based on production, and who is "in form" like how it is in soccer. I'm just saying, compared to what these other big men have produced, does the difference in production levels warrant the difference in rating? And I believe that our rating don't accurately represent what the players have produced this year. 

[Jeremiah Hill]

Chandler and Bogut are basically defense only guys while Pekovic is offense only. I would say that Chandler and Bogut's contributions on the defensive end are worth more than Pekovic's given each of their team's success.

Personally I have no idea why Lee is an 85. If you remove him all of the other ratings kind of fit. So maybe make a David Lee thread.

[Charles Barkley]

Jul 18, 2014 12:30:40 GMT Jeremiah Hill said:

Chandler and Bogut are basically defense only guys while Pekovic is offense only. I would say that Chandler and Bogut's contributions on the defensive end are worth more than Pekovic's given each of their team's success.

Personally I have no idea why Lee is an 85. If you remove him all of the other ratings kind of fit. So maybe make a David Lee thread.

I'm not making a different thread. 

Pau Gasol has 1 more rebound and 1.1 more blocks per game than Pek, and Gasol's PER is 1 point less than Pekovic's. Is that 5 rating points to you?

Roy Hibbert's numbers, seriously. Almost 11, 6.6, and 2.2 PPG, RPG, and BLKPG respectively. Compared to Pek: 17.4, 8.7, 0.4. I don't understand how those two are serious rated the same. So Hibbert has 1.8 blocks a game more, he comes up pretty short in every category mentioned, including PER. Yet they are both rated the same, am I missing something here?

"Chandler and Bogut are basically defensive only guys," ok, so whats the point there? They play the center position along with Pekovic and Bogut is rated the same as Pek, and Chandler one OVR rating point higher. How did Chandler's contributions mean more to his team IRL? the Knicks were 37-45 while the T'Wolves were 40-42. NOT TO MENTION THE UNBALANCED SCHEDULE WHICH HAS TEAMS IN THE EAST PLAYING MORE GAMES AGAINST TEAMS IN THE EAST. What I mean by that is, the stats are skewed because the competition in the East this season was horrendous. Top 3 teams in the NBA with the worst record: Milwaukee, Philly, Orlando. Yet still, Chandler had 0.9 boards more per game, and 0.7 more blocks per game, while scoring 8.7 points per game less. Does that statistical display accurately represent a 1 point differential, in Chandler's favor? 

As for Bogut, 10.1 points per game less than Pek, but he is a "defensive only guy" so, his defensive stats here should be a lot better to constitute them being the same rating. Lets look at boards and blocks per game, Bogut had 1.3 boards per game more and 1.4 blocks per game more. Does 1.3 RPG and 1.4 BLKPG make up for scoring 10.1 PPG less? That is the question here. And I don't think it does.

I mean, I get that some of these guys have "track records" and are "proven" but why does that matter? Guys like David Lee and Tyson Chandler and Bogut and Pau and Timmy, they're past their primes. Why do they get bonus points for having a long standing track record of production? If they don't, it seems like they do. I mean, this is the first year Cousins average 20+ and 10+ a game. Boogie got his 87 from this season alone, before this past season even ended. It was given to him, officially in his stock watch thread, at the end of February, a full month before the regular season ended.

The season is over, no one is going to produce stats between now and the regular season. This is what they are and this is what we have to go off of. 

Chandler and Hibbert's stats were atrocious considering they played in the Eastern Conference. Pek played a much harder schedule for a team that was coached by a historically up-tempo coach. And he still put up 17 and 8. 

I just don't see how, given these stats, one can say, in the case of Pau Gasol, 1 more RPG and 1.1 BLKPG is equivalent to a difference of 5 OVR rating points. It just doesn't make sense. I can't wrap my head around it. And it is the case with all of the guys I previously mentioned and I am sure I can look at all the starting centers in the league and compare them and find the same discrepancies. 

[Charles Barkley]

To keep this going:

Anthony Davis D5's Sweet Heart (87) Western Conference (WC)
PPG     RPG   BLKPG   PER
20.8    10.0    2.8     26.54

Boogie (87)   WC
PPG    RPG    BLKPG    PER
22.7    11.7    1.3     26.18

Ibaka (Going up to an 85) WC
PPG    RPG    BLKPG    PER
15.1   8.8       2.7     19.66

Joakim Noah (86) Eastern Conference (EC)
PPG    RPG    BLKPG   PER
12.6   11.3     1.5     20.06

Al Jefferson
PPG    RPG    BLKPG    PER
21.8   10.8      1.1      22.7

Kevin Garnett (80) (EC)
PPG    RPG     BLKPG    PER
6.5     6.6        0.7     13.35

Nene Hilario (Going to be an 81) (EC)
PPG    RPG    BLKPG    PER
14.2   5.5       0.9     16.67

Brook Lopez (84) played 17 games, so take what you will from this (EC)
PPG    RPG    BLKPG    PER
20.7    6.0     1.8      25.50

Greg Monroe (79) (EC)
PPG    RPG    BLKPG    PER
15.2    9.3     0.6      18.16

Dwight Howard (92 going to a 90) (WC)
PPG    RPG    BLKPG    PER
18.3   12.2    1.8      21.36

David West (Was an 82 going up to an 84) (EC)
PPG    RPG    BLKPG    PER
14.0   6.8       0.9     17.55

DeAndre Jordan (Soon to be an 83) (WC)
PPG    RPG    BLKPG   PER
10.4   13.6     2.5     18.19

Zach Randolph (83) (WC)
PPG    RPG    BLKPG    PER
17.4   10.1     0.3     18.37

Andre Drummond (81) (EC)
PPG      RPG    BLKPG    PER
13.5     13.2      1.6     22.65

LaMarcus Aldridge (89) (WC)
PPG    RPG    BLKPG    PER
23.2   11.1     1.0      21.84

Marc Gasol (83) (WC)
PPG    RPG    BLKPG    PER
14.6   7.2       1.3      18.27

Amar'e Stoudemire (79) (EC)
PPG    RPG    BLKPG    PER
11.9   4.9       0.6     18.89

Omer Asik (78)   (48 games played and an average of 20.2 MPG, just to keep a point of reference)  (WC)
PPG    RPG    BLKPG    PER
5.8     7.9       0.8     14.05

Marcin Gortat (81)  (EC)
PPG    RPG    BLKPG    PER
13.2    9.5      1.5     17.66

Al Horford (86) Going to use career numbers here, since he was out all year  (EC)
PPG    RPG   BLKPG    PER
14.0    9.5     1.1       18.7

Hibbert (81) (EC)
PPG    RPG       BLKPG       PER
10.8    6.6         2.2         13.54

Pekovic (81) (WC)
PPG    RPG      BLKPG     PER
17.4    8.7        0.4       20.72

Tyson Chandler (82) (EC)
PPG    RPG    BLKPG    PER
8.7     9.6       1.1     16.48

David Lee (85) (WC)
PPG    RPG    BLKPG    PER
18.2    9.3      0.4     19.21

Andrew Bogut (82 soon to be an 81) (WC)
PPG    RPG     BLKPG    PER
7.3     10.0      1.8     17.11

Pau Gasol (86) (WC)
PPG      RPG     BLKPG    PER
17.4      9.7      1.5      19.34

Tim Duncan (86) (WC)
PPG    RPG    BLKPG    PER
15.1    9.7      1.9      21.40

Derrick Favors (Soon to be a 79) (WC)
PPG    RPG    BLKPG    PER
13.3    8.7     1.5      19.01


So, that's a list of primarily post players, some known for their offense or their defense, but it is a nice representation of the bigs in the league. I used guys above 80, deserving of an 80 IMO, or players who were near 80 that should be no where near 80.

Now, I know everyone will say, "You can't just judge these guys off of these 4 stats" and they're right. But for the point I am trying to establish, those stats are not needed just yet.

I have also labelled each player with their respective real life conference: EC for Eastern Conference, WC for WEstern Conference.


Edit: Added the other players from the previous post, also added Favors.

I was only trying to get Pek a rating change at first, but Jeremiah pissed me off, so I am kind of going through all of this. 

[Charles Barkley]

Now, I am going to "simulate" Pekovic's stats if the Wolves played an Eastern Conferenc schedule. The best division in the East was the Southeast Division, so I will swap out Orlando, and use their schedule with how the Minnesota Timberwolves would have performed.

Gimme a second, edits coming.

Didn't end up doing this, it doesn't work how I thought it would. Thought I would just be able to import his stats etc.

Anyways, my point starts here:

Each team have to play:

4 games against the other 4 division opponents, [4x4=16 games]

4 games against 6 (out-of-division) conference opponents, [4x6=24 games]

3 games against the remaining 4 conference teams, [3x4=12 games]

2 games against teams in the opposing conference. [2x15=30 games]

Anyways, a team plays 52 games against teams in their conference, and 30 games against teams in the other conference. We can deduce from this that teams in the East played an easier schedule, meaning worse opponents, and, likely, a bit inflation to the E.C. players stats because the level of competition played is lower than the W.C.

So, part one of this is that teams in the East have "inflated" stats, not crazy out of control inflation, but you get the idea. And this isn't the players faults, they shouldn't be "docked" points for playing against weaker competition but just please keep this in mind as I move forward with this.

[Deleted]

Jul 18, 2014 14:38:32 GMT Charles Barkley said:

To keep this going:

Anthony Davis D5's Sweet Heart (87) Western Conference (WC)
PPG     RPG   BLKPG   PER
20.8    10.0    2.8     26.54

Boogie (87)   WC
PPG    RPG    BLKPG    PER
22.7    11.7    1.3     26.18

Ibaka (Going up to an 85) WC
PPG    RPG    BLKPG    PER
15.1   8.8       2.7     19.66

Joakim Noah (86) Eastern Conference (EC)
PPG    RPG    BLKPG   PER
12.6   11.3     1.5     20.06

Kevin Garnett (80) (EC)
PPG    RPG     BLKPG    PER
6.5     6.6        0.7     13.35

Nene Hilario (Going to be an 81) (EC)
PPG    RPG    BLKPG    PER
14.2   5.5       0.9     16.67

Brook Lopez (84) played 17 games, so take what you will from this (EC)
PPG    RPG    BLKPG    PER
20.7    6.0     1.8      25.50

Greg Monroe (79) (EC)
PPG    RPG    BLKPG    PER
15.2    9.3     0.6      18.16

Dwight Howard (92) (WC)
PPG    RPG    BLKPG    PER
18.3   12.2    1.8      21.36

David West (Was an 82 going up to an 84) (EC)
PPG    RPG    BLKPG    PER
14.0   6.8       0.9     17.55

DeAndre Jordan (Soon to be an 83) (WC)
PPG    RPG    BLKPG   PER
10.4   13.6     2.5     18.19

Zach Randolph (83) (WC)
PPG    RPG    BLKPG    PER
17.4   10.1     0.3     18.37

Andre Drummond (81) (EC)
PPG      RPG    BLKPG    PER
13.5     13.2      1.6     22.65

LaMarcus Aldridge (89) (WC)
PPG    RPG    BLKPG    PER
23.2   11.1     1.0      21.84

Marc Gasol (83) (WC)
PPG    RPG    BLKPG    PER
14.6   7.2       1.3      18.27

Amar'e Stoudemire (79) (EC)
PPG    RPG    BLKPG    PER
11.9   4.9       0.6     18.89

Omer Asik (78)   (48 games played and an average of 20.2 MPG, just to keep a point of reference)  (WC)
PPG    RPG    BLKPG    PER
5.8     7.9       0.8     14.05

Marcin Gortat (81)  (EC)
PPG    RPG    BLKPG    PER
13.2    9.5      1.5     17.66

Al Horford (86) Going to use career numbers here, since he was out all year  (EC)
PPG    RPG   BLKPG    PER
14.0    9.5     1.1       18.7

Hibbert (81) (EC)
PPG RPG BLKPG PER
10.8 6.6 2.2 13.54

Pekovic (81) (WC)
PPG RPG BLKPG PER
17.4 8.7 0.4 20.72

Tyson Chandler (82) (EC)
PPG RPG BLKPG PER
8.7 9.6 1.1 16.48

David Lee (85) (WC)
PPG RPG BLKPG PER
18.2 9.3 0.4 19.21

Andrew Bogut (82 soon to be an 81) (WC)
PPG RPG BLKPG PER
7.3 10.0 1.8 17.11

Pau Gasol (86) (WC)
PPG RPG BLKPG PER
17.4 9.7 1.5 19.34

Tim Duncan (86) (WC)
PPG RPG BLKPG PER
15.1 9.7 1.9 21.40

Derrick Favors (Soon to be a 79) (WC)
PPG    RPG    BLKPG    PER

13.3    8.7     1.5      19.01


So, that's a list of primarily post players, some known for their offense or their defense, but it is a nice representation of the bigs in the league. I used guys above 80, deserving of an 80 IMO, or players who were near 80 that should be no where near 80.

Now, I know everyone will say, "You can't just judge these guys off of these 4 stats" and they're right. But for the point I am trying to establish, those stats are not needed just yet.

I have also labelled each player with their respective real life conference: EC for Eastern Conference, WC for WEstern Conference.


Edit: Added the other players from the previous post, also added Favors.

I was only trying to get Pek a rating change at first, but Jeremiah pissed me off, so I am kind of going through all of this. 

And you didn't even use your best comparable!

[Charles Barkley]

Jul 18, 2014 15:55:57 GMT Vlade Divac said:

Jul 18, 2014 14:38:32 GMT Charles Barkley said:

Tothrough all of this. 

And you didn't even use your best comparable!

Who is the best comparable Vlade? I'll throw him in there, I was just scanning the rosters and was just basically working on something because I am really fuckin bored.

[Charles Barkley]

Jul 18, 2014 14:38:32 GMT Charles Barkley said:

To keep this going:



Boogie (87)   WC
PPG    RPG    BLKPG    PER
22.7    11.7    1.3     26.18

Dwight Howard (92 soon to be a 90) (WC)

PPG      RPG     BLKPG     PER

18.3    12.2      1.8        21.36


Ok, so let's break down these two guys. And let's see who is the best center in the league. (I know Big Al Jeff could probably be in the discussion, but let's leave it to these two first.)

The whole point of this is to establish a baseline. I was talking to Jeremiah about the Pekovic thing earlier, and we were talking about Pau vs Pek, and I said something like, "well, what is 5 OVR points statistically look like?" And, there's so many variations and opinions on things in here, and it's great, but when you have guys running around at an 85+ who probably shouldn't be there, it gives teams an advantage they shouldn't have. So bare with me as I try this out. Thanks.


Ok. As shown above, Boogie has the lead by 4.4 in PPG, D12 takes the lead in RPG and BLKPG by 0.5 each respectfully. PER can come into play later. Both Cousins and Howard played roughly 33 MPG, so their PER 36 numbers won't be any different really.


Dwight posted numbers of 0.8, 1.8, 8.9, 3.3, 54.7% in STL, AST, DRB, ORB, and FT%. While Cousins had 1.5, 2.9, 8.6, 3.1, and 72.6% in those numbers as well. Dwight got to the line an average of 9 times a game, had a 2P% of 59.4% while attempting 11.2 a game. On the other hand, Boogie got to the line 8.4 times a game on average, shot 49.9% on 2P, and attempted 16.7 a game. Cousins FG% was 49.6 and attempted 16.8 FG's a game. Dwight shot 59.1% per game while attempting 11.3 FG's a game. 


Moving on to advanced stats now. Howard had OWS of 4.0, DWS of 4.1, WS of 8.0 (yeah, I know, check the site), and 0.161 WS/48. Cousins on the other hand had 4.1 OWS, 3.8 DWS, 7.9 total WS, and 0.166 WS/48. Boogie had a way higher AST%, a higher STL%, a lower TOV%, but a higher USG rate and a lower BLK% than Dwight. Dwight posted a score of 109 and 101 in ORtg and DRtg, Cousins, respectfully scored a 107 and a 101 ORtg and DRtg. Boogie had a marginally higher TRB%, a higher DRB%, but a little lower ORB%. 3PAr is irrelevant. Dwight's FTr is nearly 30 points higher than Cousins, but, remember, Dwight cannot shoot free throws, is this large difference in rating a bi-product of the hack a Dwight strategy? I feel like this is a disadvantage for Dwight, he gets to the line 80% of the time he attempts a FG, but can only convert at the line half of the time, that is a lot of missed opportunities. Dwight had a higher eFG%, by 10, and a higher TS% by 5. Of course, you can see Boogie led the way in the all encompassing stat of PER /s


Anyways, my point in of this is simple. Is the differences I've shown here, representative of a 3 point difference between the two? Dwight is highly efficient but his greatest attribute, getting to the line, is wasted because of his awful free-throw percentage. And Cousins best "non-center" attribute is his passing, it is vastly superior to Dwight's.


I'm kind of biased in the sense that I think Cousins is the best pure center in the league. With Al Jeff and Dwight in second and third. But I would just like to raise the discussion of who the best center is and have that baseline and go from there. I just really feel like, throughout the big men I've noticed, there's players who are over rated, but when you drop them, GMs compare players to other over rated players. 


Pau isn't 5 points better than Pek right now, Lee isn't 4 points better than Pek. Chandler isn't as good defensively as Pek is offensively, same goes for Bogut. There's that "log jam" of big-men in the 78-82 range, and some of those guys are better than Pau and Lee and maybe even Duncan. And you can take out "Pek" and replace him with any big man approaching his prime/in his prime.

Jul 18, 2014 14:38:32 GMT Charles Barkley said:

[Deleted]

Jul 18, 2014 16:13:14 GMT Charles Barkley said:

Jul 18, 2014 15:55:57 GMT Vlade Divac said:

And you didn't even use your best comparable!

Who is the best comparable Vlade? I'll throw him in there, I was just scanning the rosters and was just basically working on something because I am really fuckin bored.

Bosh, duh!

[Charles Barkley]

Jul 18, 2014 21:30:16 GMT Vlade Divac said:

Jul 18, 2014 16:13:14 GMT Charles Barkley said:

Who is the best comparable Vlade? I'll throw him in there, I was just scanning the rosters and was just basically working on something because I am really fuckin bored.

Bosh, duh!

Lol, I'm not including stretch 4's in this study. I would like to include just low post - high post players.

And since you are on the SWC, I'm just doing this to see what people think, based off of this season's stats, about the post guys.

[Charles Barkley]

Alright, next up in this "study" is for the top PF spot. Who takes the lead: AD or LMA? 

Edits to come

[Jeremiah Hill]

Literally every player you listed except for Derrick Favors was on a better defensive team by opponent FG%.

[Charles Barkley]

Jul 19, 2014 2:32:28 GMT Jeremiah Hill said:

Literally every player you listed except for Derrick Favors was on a better defensive team by opponent FG%.

A better defensive team than the Timberwolves?  This isn't just about Pek anymore, so maybe I should just make it into a new thread. But what does being on a better defensive team via opp FG% have to do with Pek's rating? Everyone who understands basketball knows Rick Adelman didn't give two shits about defense. And what does team defense have to do with a players rating? Can you provide conclusive proof that because of player X, the teams out put was greater than the previous out put? You can't. Even if you took, say Al Jeff, and said because he was on CHA this year, he was responsible for the team being better defensively, it wouldn't be true. Because, the other players on the team also got better, the opponents teams changed, and the way CHA played was different than last year because of the addition of Al. 

Using opponent FG% just shows who had a good defensive team. You can't specifically say one entity was responsible for it. You can't say its because of the new coach or the new player or this guy or that. Because its a team rating. Does it provide some value to a player? Yeah, in part, it does. But you can't say that it was solely Pek's fault the team was not good defensively. And, I've even conceded the point that Pek isn't a good defensive center. But is Kevin Martin a good defensive guard? Is Love a solid low post defender? How is Rubio's defense? What if Pek wasn't the only body in the paint on defense? What if Rick Adelman stressed actual defense over turnovers and rebounds that lead to fast breaks? There's too many factors here for you to just say that Pek was at fault in his team's poor defense by OPP FG%.

Minnesota was second in the league in opponents turnovers per game, and 6th in the league in rebounds per game, which further enhances my point that Adelman didn't preach team defense, instead he preached to cause turnovers and get boards to lead to transition buckets. The guy has had this philosophy since his days with the Kings, when they were the only team to average more than 100 PPG.

[Jeremiah Hill]

I know for a fact that when Tyson Chandler left Dallas their defense suffered a lot and they missed the playoffs (albeit with some help from a Dirk injury) Because the center is one of the most important pieces in a defense. You are also picking and choosing what you are refuting. I already told you it's not the be all end all its just a contributing factor. Low defensive stats, both the obvious ones (BLKs, Steals) the Advance stuff like Drtg and DWS his overall team success on the defensive end, none of that adds up to him being even average big man on the defensive end. And there is no one who could argue that it is.

Also if his coach for the past few years doesn't teach defense then one could assume that the people who he was teaching would be bad on the defensive end. Which is exactly what I'm saying. He also plays ABOVE his real life statistical output in the SIM engine. So there is nothing to complain about.

If it's more of just bitching about the ranking then I still don't think that holds water because he's maybe a top 15 Center in the NBA which isn't saying much and I'm pretty sure out of starting big men he's right there in those terms even with our ranking.

[Jeremiah Hill]

Also only 5 people can be on the court at one time so that terrible team ranking is at least a 5th his fault.