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Post by Andrei Kirilenko on Apr 28, 2022 15:13:04 GMT
Current: 82
Suggested: 78
I am trying to get this post in before Tom accepts the trade so he cannot say we are targeting him. There has literally been chatter in discord all week about the need for a Harrell stockwatch.
13.1 ppg, 6.1 rpg, 2.0 apg, 0.4 spg, 0.6 bpg, 1.0 TOV
21 minutes per game
Very similar (almost identical) stats to LaMarcus Aldridge, who was voted a 76 recently.
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Post by Jared Montini on Apr 28, 2022 15:17:17 GMT
78.5
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Post by Tom Izzo on Apr 28, 2022 15:19:37 GMT
Lmao
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Post by Tom Izzo on Apr 28, 2022 15:21:05 GMT
I'm almost feeling too apathetic to even try at this point.
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Post by Ian Noble on Apr 28, 2022 15:31:34 GMT
I do think this recent phase of targeted decrease threads from the Discord clique has gone a bit too far.
Does Montrezl deserve a decrease? Sure. Would you have posted this thread if he hadn't joined Tom's team? Of course you wouldn't. We discussed it six days ago and nothing happened until 5 seconds after the trade was posted.
It's definitely making me think twice about my choices for who should be player agents this off season.
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Post by Tom Izzo on Apr 28, 2022 15:32:51 GMT
67% TS
1.33 LEBRON (compare - John Collins 1.14, LaMarcus Aldridge -0.20, Nikola Vucecic 1.33, Julius Randle -0.36, Robert Covington 0.84, Evan Mobley 1.44, DeAndre Ayton 1.07)
Offensive RAPTOR +2.1
Defensive RAPTOR +0.5
Overall RAPTOR +2.6
WAR +4.4
Ranks 46th in the league in RAPTOR ahead of:
John Collins (+0.6, +0.6, +1.2, +3.5)
Anthony Davis
Karl Anthony Towns
Bobby Portis
Donovan Mitchell
SGA
Pascal Siakam
Kristaps Porzingis
James Harden
Jonas Valauncias
Jaren Jackson Jr
Wendell Carter Jr
DeAndre Ayton
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Post by Tom Izzo on Apr 28, 2022 15:35:13 GMT
Do advanced stats matter or not lol
Trez with higher counting stats with his advanced stats would be an 87-89. He's had a better year than a LOT of players rated 82-86 right now.
I'll go 81 but jfc
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Post by Jerry West on Apr 28, 2022 15:35:46 GMT
67% TS 1.33 LEBRON (compare - John Collins 1.14, LaMarcus Aldridge -0.20, Nikola Vucecic 1.33, Julius Randle -0.36, Robert Covington 0.84, Evan Mobley 1.44, DeAndre Ayton 1.07) Offensive RAPTOR +2.1 Defensive RAPTOR +0.5 Overall RAPTOR +2.6 WAR +4.4 Ranks 46th in the league in RAPTOR ahead of: John Collins (+0.6, +0.6, +1.2, +3.5) Anthony Davis Karl Anthony Towns Bobby Portis Donovan Mitchell SGA Pascal Siakam Kristaps Porzingis James Harden Jonas Valauncias Jaren Jackson Jr Wendell Carter Jr DeAndre Ayton Hartenstein is ahead of everyone on this list |
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Post by Jared Montini on Apr 28, 2022 15:36:18 GMT
Do advanced stats matter or not lol Trez with higher counting stats with his advanced stats would be an 87-89. He's had a better year than a LOT of players rated 82-86 right now. I'll go 81 but jfc he plays 23 minutes per game and played for 2 non playoff teams this year |
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Post by Brian Scalabrine on Apr 28, 2022 15:50:21 GMT
79
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Post by Brad Stevens on Apr 28, 2022 17:24:18 GMT
77.8
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Post by Tom Izzo on Apr 28, 2022 17:29:03 GMT
How is a guy who is putting up number similar to John Collins (in 7 less MPG) but with higher efficiency and better advanced stats in every category a 78 while Collins is an 84 |
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Larry Bird
 Indiana Pacers
Starter
Posts: 1,672
Mar 5, 2024 13:29:26 GMT
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Post by Larry Bird on Apr 28, 2022 17:32:14 GMT
83
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Post by Brad Stevens on Apr 28, 2022 18:01:23 GMT
Below is what I have comparing those two by each category (in points).
O Aware - Harrell by 4 (O RAPTOR)
FG - Even (pts/g, mid range%, mid range fgm/game)
3PT - Collins by 65 (3P%, 3PM/game)
FT - Collins by 7
Ins Scoring - Harrell by 3 (0-3 ft FG%, 0-3ft FGM/game)
Pass - Harrell by 7 (Assist%-TO%)
Handle - Collins by 3 (Assist%/TO% + Usage/TO%)
D Aware - Even (D RAPTOR)
Steal - Collins by 8 (Steal%, Steals/game)
Block - Collins by 10 (Block%, Blocks/game)
O Reb - Harrell by 13 (O Reb%, O Reb/game)
D Reb - Collins by 9 (D Reb%, D Reb/game)
Speed - Collins by 7 (translated from 2k speed)
Quick - Collins by 4 (translated from 2k lateral quickness)
Jump - Collins by 8 (translated from 2k vertical)
Strong - Collins by 3 (translated from 2k interior defense)
Fatigue - Collins by 10 (translated from 2k stamina)
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Post by Tom Izzo on Apr 28, 2022 18:10:01 GMT
Below is what I have comparing those two by each category (in points). O Aware - Harrell by 4 (O RAPTOR) FG - Even (pts/g, mid range%, mid range fgm/game) 3PT - Collins by 65 (3P%, 3PM/game) FT - Collins by 7 Ins Scoring - Harrell by 3 (0-3 ft FG%, 0-3ft FGM/game) Pass - Harrell by 7 (Assist%-TO%) Handle - Collins by 3 (Assist%/TO% + Usage/TO%) D Aware - Even (D RAPTOR) Steal - Collins by 8 (Steal%, Steals/game) Block - Collins by 10 (Block%, Blocks/game) O Reb - Harrell by 13 (O Reb%, O Reb/game) D Reb - Collins by 9 (D Reb%, D Reb/game) Speed - Collins by 7 (translated from 2k speed) Quick - Collins by 4 (translated from 2k lateral quickness) Jump - Collins by 8 (translated from 2k vertical) Strong - Collins by 3 (translated from 2k interior defense) Fatigue - Collins by 10 (translated from 2k stamina) I respect that you have developed your own formulaic way of determining ratings based on stats. When looking at Collins and Harrell, I don't see a 6 point difference in ratings this season. I could see Collins 82-83 with Harrell 81, but I believe Harrell at 78 is just a disservice to a highly efficient and productive player that is backed up by all statistical categories. |
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Post by Andrei Kirilenko on Apr 28, 2022 18:20:01 GMT
I am in no way defending John Collins' season this year, but just wanted to say, for the record, here are JC's stats when he got his 84 rating: 21.6 ppg, 10.1 rpg, 1.5 apg, 0.8 spg, 1.5 bpg 58.3% FG, 40.1% 3p, 80% FT 63.2% EFG, 65.9% TS Here is the threadThese are obviously wildly different than what he is currently averaging and are incredibly better than anything Montrezl has ever produced. |
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Post by Jerry West on Apr 28, 2022 18:47:30 GMT
79.5
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Post by Tom Izzo on Apr 28, 2022 18:56:32 GMT
I am in no way defending John Collins' season this year, but just wanted to say, for the record, here are JC's stats when he got his 84 rating: 21.6 ppg, 10.1 rpg, 1.5 apg, 0.8 spg, 1.5 bpg 58.3% FG, 40.1% 3p, 80% FT 63.2% EFG, 65.9% TS Here is the threadThese are obviously wildly different than what he is currently averaging and are incredibly better than anything Montrezl has ever produced. I could see arguments for JC to an 82-83 and this is why I believe Trez at an 81 is fair. |
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Post by Chauncey Billups on Apr 28, 2022 19:00:01 GMT
80.5
The stats are there, just doesn’t get the minutes for whatever reason.
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Post by Jerry West on Apr 28, 2022 19:02:46 GMT
80.5 The stats are there, just doesn’t get the minutes for whatever reason. For the same reason he didn't get more minutes on the clippers or a bigger contract in the off season. He's a walking bucket for the opposing team. |
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Post by Tom Izzo on Apr 28, 2022 19:04:12 GMT
80.5 The stats are there, just doesn’t get the minutes for whatever reason. For the same reason he didn't get more minutes on the clippers or a bigger contract in the off season. He's a walking bucket for the opposing team. What defensive statistic should I look at to verify this claim |
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Post by Andrei Kirilenko on Apr 28, 2022 19:05:05 GMT
I'm not really sure I understand the Collins to Harrell comparison tbh. Aren't these guys vastly different basketball players? I'm honestly not trying to troll, but what exactly is Harrell better at than John Collins? Where exactly are you finding enough ratings points for a 13/6 bench player with no real skills to put him in the 80s?
We are talking about one guy who was recently the 2nd best player on an ECF team and got a $125m contract, and another guy who has bounced around on minimums and is a bench player on a lottery team. Just honestly trying to understand the comparison here because I'm not sure these 2 guys are anything alike.
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Monty Williams
Former Grizzlies GM
Rookie
Posts: 127
Oct 27, 2023 23:30:42 GMT
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Post by Monty Williams on Apr 28, 2022 19:06:57 GMT
80.5 The stats are there, just doesn’t get the minutes for whatever reason. Because he’s a liability defensively, and he doesn’t space the floor. He’s good in his role which is an energetic inside scorer. He’s actually perfect for a Point Guard like Melo, because they can just spam PnR when he’s in, and he’s a good enough rebounder to clean up shots. |
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Post by Brian Scalabrine on Apr 28, 2022 19:10:57 GMT
For the same reason he didn't get more minutes on the clippers or a bigger contract in the off season. He's a walking bucket for the opposing team. What defensive statistic should I look at to verify this claim You need defensive statistics to tell you Harrell is bad at defense? |
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Post by Steve Nash on Apr 28, 2022 19:12:02 GMT
80.5
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Post by Tom Izzo on Apr 28, 2022 19:18:29 GMT
I'm not really sure I understand the Collins to Harrell comparison tbh. Aren't these guys vastly different basketball players? I'm honestly not trying to troll, but what exactly is Harrell better at than John Collins? Where exactly are you finding enough ratings points for a 13/6 bench player with no real skills to put him in the 80s? We are talking about one guy who was recently the 2nd best player on an ECF team and got a $125m contract, and another guy who has bounced around on minimums and is a bench player on a lottery team. Just honestly trying to understand the comparison here because I'm not sure these 2 guys are anything alike. Lol. Bounced around on minimums while Collins has a $125M contract. Do you ACTUALLY not realize your extreme biased arguments or are you just doing it on purpose to drum up arguments? I have brought up JC multiple times because Collins is a 4/5 with comparable counting stats but Harrell beats in every advanced category. TS% is off the charts. LEBRON and RAPTOR are considerably high and positive impact when he's on the floor. If it means nothing then admit it or stick to your guns. |
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Post by Tom Izzo on Apr 28, 2022 19:20:29 GMT
What defensive statistic should I look at to verify this claim You need defensive statistics to tell you Harrell is bad at defense? I'm asking which stat I should look at to verify that claim. Yes. It's measurable, no? I'm just looking for consensus on which I should look at. From what I recall during the discord, it seems to be largely agreed upon that RAPTOR was the best measure, unless I'm misremembering. |
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Post by Andrei Kirilenko on Apr 28, 2022 19:21:32 GMT
Lol. Bounced around on minimums while Collins has a $125M contract. Do you ACTUALLY not realize your extreme biased arguments or are you just doing it on purpose to drum up arguments? What is going on I am so confused lmao |
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Post by Andrei Kirilenko on Apr 28, 2022 19:28:58 GMT
I've literally said nothing about John Collins except that the stats his rating was based on were drastically different than his stats this season. And then I said him and Harrell are nothing alike as players and pointed out JC's contract compared to Harrell's.
How in the world am I being biased when I haven't presented any opinions on John Collins at all!
Am I not allowed to ask for clarification on why you are comparing these 2 players? This thread is completely off the rails lol
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Post by Brian Scalabrine on Apr 28, 2022 19:29:30 GMT
You need defensive statistics to tell you Harrell is bad at defense? I'm asking which stat I should look at to verify that claim. Yes. It's measurable, no? I'm just looking for consensus on which I should look at. From what I recall during the discord, it seems to be largely agreed upon that RAPTOR was the best measure, unless I'm misremembering. Defensive stats can't be relied on entirely. They are contextual. Eye test is the only true measure. Every serious NBA observer agrees trez is a terrible defensive player |
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