Detroit Pistons - Memphis Grizzlies

[Chauncey Billups]

What a serious failure by the TC.

[Tom Izzo]

I think it's okay to reject until Monty states he understands the rule.

But I disagree with people clamoring that this move solidifies Jokic's departure from the team. I feel pretty confident that another poor performance with Mitchell this year is going to be used as ammo by the same people who think Mitchell shouldn't be traded.

[Monty Williams]

I understand the rule now, and I would agree that yes, losing KAT, and Donovan Mitchell back to back would give me pause as a Sueprstar, however I would disagree that it must mean the team is going in the opposite direction, and I’d also disagree that Jokic would be willing to leave because of this. We can’t look too far ahead, and assume this move makes us worse. The truth is Keldon, and Saddiq Bey improved massively this year, and on top of that it’s not like I wouldn’t have assets to make other moves. I’d have multiple firsts to potentially go after another star/player I feel that’s better than Spider Mitchell. I even had two other moves lined up that would given me a DPOY winner/caliber player, and another sharp shooter in my front court, so it’s plausible the two guys I’m getting back wouldn’t have even been starting. This move would’ve looked a lot better in unison with my other moves, as not only was the team to become more well rounded, but we’d of also had multiple firsts(at least 3), on top of the youngsters, and the veterans.

[Jerry West]

Apr 21, 2022 12:04:17 GMT Monty Williams said:

I understand the rule now, and I would agree that yes, losing KAT, and Donovan Mitchell back to back would give me pause as a Sueprstar, however I would disagree that it must mean the team is going in the opposite direction, and I’d also disagree that Jokic would be willing to leave because of this. We can’t look too far ahead, and assume this move makes us worse. The truth is Keldon, and Saddiq Bey improved massively this year, and on top of that it’s not like I wouldn’t have assets to make other moves. I’d have multiple firsts to potentially go after another star/player I feel that’s better than Spider Mitchell. I even had two other moves lined up that would given me a DPOY winner/caliber player, and another sharp shooter in my front court, so it’s plausible the two guys I’m getting back wouldn’t have even been starting. This move would’ve looked a lot better in unison with my other moves, as not only was the team to become more well rounded, but we’d of also had multiple firsts(at least 3), on top of the youngsters, and the veterans.

Alright guys you heard the man, let the trade go through and then blame a corrupted/biased PA comission when Jokic leaves. Btw, I am telling you now he is 100% leaving, don't act shocked when he does.

I ask this trade is re voted on

[Jared Montini]

Yeah trade is acceptable now that he’s clarified. I’d like to go on record and say I believe it’s a mistake but this trade CAN not be vetoed. Value is fair and gm now knows the rules

[Ian Noble]

Still a reject from me.

I feel like there's a lesson about patience, and not talking bollocks, that needs to be learned

[Hanamichi Sakuragi]

Apr 21, 2022 12:27:34 GMT Jared Montini said:

Yeah trade is acceptable now that he’s clarified. I’d like to go on record and say I believe it’s a mistake but this trade CAN not be vetoed. Value is fair and gm now knows the rules

I disagree that the value is fair.

[Chauncey Billups]

So Monty doubles down.

That change anything for Danny Longley , Alex English , Bryan Colangelo , Walt Frazier?

[Ian Noble]

I feel so much dismay at this reply

Apr 21, 2022 12:04:17 GMT Monty Williams said:

I understand the rule now, and I would agree that yes, losing KAT, and Donovan Mitchell back to back would give me pause as a Sueprstar ... and I’d also disagree that Jokic would be willing to leave because of this.

So it's a fact that this trade would definitely increase the chance that Jokic leaves this summer.

Apr 21, 2022 12:04:17 GMT Monty Williams said:

however I would disagree that it must mean the team is going in the opposite direction,

This trade means your team is definitely not going in the direction of winning and success, and definitely signifies your team is going in a rebuilding direction. The entire point of accruing superstar talent is the pursuit of success, and trading it away is the opposite. The acquisition of mediocre players who have pretty much reached their ceiling and draft picks signifies a move to blowing it up and rebuilding, which is the absolute worst decision to make if you intend to re-sign your 98-rated likely-repeat-MVP generational talent Nikola Jokic.

Apr 21, 2022 12:04:17 GMT Monty Williams said:

I even had two other moves lined up that would given me a DPOY winner/caliber player, and another sharp shooter in my front court, so it’s plausible the two guys I’m getting back wouldn’t have even been starting.

I'm guessing Marcus Smart and Josh Richardson, which shows just how low value you attribute to Keldon and Saddiq who you're also simultaneously trying to big-up in the previous sentence?!

Apr 21, 2022 12:04:17 GMT Monty Williams said:

I’d have multiple firsts to potentially go after another star/player I feel that’s better than Spider Mitchell

Or you could just not trade away Donovan Mitchell.

Apr 21, 2022 12:04:17 GMT Monty Williams said:

This move would’ve looked a lot better in unison with my other moves, as not only was the team to become more well rounded

"Well-rounded"?! It would also make your team more well-rounded to trade Jokic for another bunch of borderline starters and mid-range draft picks, but it doesn't make sense to do that if you're trying to succeed or not blow it up and rebuild. At least if you were committing to some kind of blow-up and rebuild it would indicate some forethought of a road that could one day lead to success.

Sorry to get so anal about this trade, but this kind of utterly nonsensical talk is exactly what has destroyed teams in the past.

You need a direction. If that direction is winning with your two young superstars then this trade is going in the wrong direction.

[Tom Izzo]

Apr 21, 2022 12:11:23 GMT Jerry West said:

Apr 21, 2022 12:04:17 GMT Monty Williams said:

I understand the rule now, and I would agree that yes, losing KAT, and Donovan Mitchell back to back would give me pause as a Sueprstar, however I would disagree that it must mean the team is going in the opposite direction, and I’d also disagree that Jokic would be willing to leave because of this. We can’t look too far ahead, and assume this move makes us worse. The truth is Keldon, and Saddiq Bey improved massively this year, and on top of that it’s not like I wouldn’t have assets to make other moves. I’d have multiple firsts to potentially go after another star/player I feel that’s better than Spider Mitchell. I even had two other moves lined up that would given me a DPOY winner/caliber player, and another sharp shooter in my front court, so it’s plausible the two guys I’m getting back wouldn’t have even been starting. This move would’ve looked a lot better in unison with my other moves, as not only was the team to become more well rounded, but we’d of also had multiple firsts(at least 3), on top of the youngsters, and the veterans.

Alright guys you heard the man, let the trade go through and then blame a corrupted/biased PA comission when Jokic leaves. Btw, I am telling you now he is 100% leaving, don't act shocked when he does.

I ask this trade is re voted on

Did a graduated player agent/potential upcoming player agent just threaten the departure of a star player over this trade?

Lol what in the world is going on here. I seriously can't. Some of you test my patience with these accusations, speculation, and threats based on absolute nothing substantial.

Yes James, I do think there's a lot of toxicity and negativity from a few D5 members and that's why I'm deliberately trying to counter it. I don't think your opinion is toxic or disagreeing with this trade is toxic, but I do think threatening a player to leave and consistent sarcasm and belittling and picking arguments over almost everything is just wearing people down. Myself included.

This is just a game we play but it feels like almost everything is a fight. Injuries. Trades. Hyping players up. Being happy. It's just a constant fight like we're some session of Congress.

The superiority complex and arrogance some people have is tiring.

I just wanna have fun and let other people have fun

[Hanamichi Sakuragi]

#protectthegriz

[Chris Mullin]

Apr 19, 2022 23:52:03 GMT James Kay said:

Apr 19, 2022 19:46:51 GMT Tom Izzo said:

Two parts - and I’d argue the largest parts - of the fun of a sim league like D5 are 1) maintaining a different universe where different combinations of players join up to either success or failure and experience different careers than real life; and 2) engaging in a competition where team management, and all its different philosophies and challenges, are the basis for that competition. Tying D5 free agency so strongly to real life tendencies undermines both of those aspects of our league.

Jokic, and any other player who hasn’t switched teams in real life, doesn’t need to vocally declare a desire to change teams in order for that to be true in D5. What else would be the point of free agency except to enact real life NBA free agency moves? So there must be some basis upon which to judge free agency decisions.

Here, a team with the consecutive two time MVP has just traded their co-star for rebuilding assets. It is reasonable to assume the MVP wants to win. Picks and young players are objectively less capable of achieving that. It is then reasonable to assume this will play a factor in his free agency decision.

If we take your view, what could possibly incentivize Jokic to leave? Can MEM just load up on bad assets? Trade all their players for picks? Can MEM make any managerial decisions that would impact Jokic’s FA?

^THIS^

Is it self-serving for me, with the KD siuation? Yes, but what's the point of any of this if we're just going to completely mirror everything that happens IRL?? 

*This is a James Kay quote, not a Tom Izzo quote just FYI*

[Tom Izzo]

We shouldn't follow real life exactly and I feel like my arguments continuously get twisted and perhaps that's on me for not communicating clearly enough.

But if we are going to make massive decisions about team make up, particularly in regards to star players, it SHOULD match that player's real life decision making patterns. Is it going to be completely reflected here in D5? No.

But should a player like Dame leave the Bulls simply because he's a veteran star without a championship? That team is depleted and the future looks bleak. I would argue that he should not be leaving unless real life Dame begins to want out of Portland.

Otherwise we're just saying teams that on paper offer the best chance to win a title should nearly automatically attract the best free agents, as if that's the only thing that matters. If that's the case then just drop the illusion of paying attention to anything real life.

Real life personalities and injuries are the only objective thing we actually have. It should factor into decisions. It should NOT be the only thing that matters and we should NOT aim to simply copy paste reality and that is NOT what I am arguing for. But Jokic has never indicated he's unhappy in Denver. Or that he needs a super team. Or that Denver needs to trade for another star or he's out. Or anything... Anything at all to suggest that he doesn't want to win with the team that drafted him. It's unfair to suggest anything otherwise without evidence...and the only evidence I've seen is "he's the 2x MVP so it's reasonable to assume he wants to play with the best talent possible to win championships" - which I agree he would probably want to win, nobody WANTS to lose. I'm simply saying this trade, trading away Mitchell, when the BEST this team has gotten so far is the 2nd round, should not be the straw that breaks Jokic's back to leave Memphis. To manipulate the trade and say he's 100% gone is just absurd.

Sorry you have KD, Chris, and that he left Golden State and Steph. Should that be a 100% leaving situation for him in D5? No. But should that factor in? Yes.

[Chauncey Billups]

Still waiting on a re-vote from the guys who stated they’d change it if Monty reaffirmed his position.

Danny Longley, Alex English

[Alex English]

Actually I will change my vote to accept. While I agree with the general sentiment of Ian's re-reject post, I think it's a misrepresentation of the guys in this trade. Keldon and Bey are two guys that obviously haven't reached their ceiling imo. With Bey there's some risk of empty stats, but Keldon played better as the season went on and is obviously a key part of the Spurs new core. From February to the end of the year he put up about 20/6/3 on 47/36/80 shooting. That would earn him a pretty easy boost to at least the 82-83 range.

On the other hand, I do think Mitchell is at his peak. He's a volume scorer that doesn't add much else offensively, maybe a bit of playmaking, and he's not a good defender. Maybe I'm not as high on Mitchell and that's the difference here?

Add in that LAC pick, which is currently 8th in the lottery (a 1 in 4 chance of moving into the top 4), and this trade might end up better for Memphis in the short and long term. I get that the extra risk with Jokic is real, but if it's understood, then fine. It does change my perception of this trade.

[Andrei Kirilenko]

Did Monty actually say he wants to go through with the deal still? I’m confused as I did not interpret his response that way.

[Monty Williams]

Apr 21, 2022 19:29:46 GMT Andrei Kirilenko said:

Did Monty actually say he wants to go through with the deal still? I’m confused as I did not interpret his response that way.

Yes I’m fine with it going through.

[Danny Longley]

I'm also switching to an accept. I feel pretty much the same way about Mitchell as Alex does.

[Bryan Colangelo]

I was okay with the return but felt horrible that Monty didn’t understand the bird rights rule. However he doubled down.

Also Alex made some excellent points to add.

I accept

[Chauncey Billups]

Faith in humanity restored

[Ian Noble]

Monty Williams Chauncey Billups trade is processed please update your depth charts.

Apr 19, 2022 18:20:54 GMT Monty Williams said:

Det 2022-2024 Second Round Picks

Does this line also refer to Detroit's 2023 2nd Round Pick?

[Monty Williams]

Yes