Gary Payton
Former Thunder GM
Rookie
Posts: 129 
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Post by Gary Payton on Apr 19, 2022 19:44:54 GMT
Yeah, RFA even irl is only for players first entering the league Wait… yeah Jokic is on his second contract, I was confused for a minute as well. I didn’t realize he’s been in the league so long, holy shit I’m getting old. Yeah that’s tough, but if I’m adding my two cents as someone that got voted “should be more active”, this isn’t a terrible trade, but then again I’m not that high on Mitchell either. He’s essentially playing at his ceiling, and he clearly doesn’t show any capabilities of making his team better when it matters. Don’t believe me, just look at Utah over the last few seasons in the playoffs. They’re always a paper Tiger. Also the team Jokic would potentially be surrounded with after this trade is probably better than the team he has irl. |
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Post by Tom Izzo on Apr 19, 2022 19:46:51 GMT
Has Memphis ever actually left the first round? Mitchell and Jokic hated each other and this shakes the team up and gives Jokic the full helm. See I can create narratives too Thanks for playing sideline GM. You are truly a man of principle.  I'm not sure of your point lol I intentionally made a narrative up to counter other people making things up, namely the instant comments of Jokic walking. Based on...what, exactly? Based on their opinions of Jokic wanting to leave? Is there ANY evidence to support that Jokic would leave a team? Has he made any demands in Denver? What exactly are people basing their opinions on? Jokic loves Memphis barbecue and he has a dope house in Memphis and doesn't care about anything except money and playing ball. See, I can make things up too. Now *****if***** there is argument from real life that Jokic would leave a team in free agency because of something similar to this, then sure - you have a point. Otherwise, the Jokic walking away chatter is projection nonsense. And besides, this current Memphis team has seen nearly zero success with Mitchell and Jokic together. That's a fact. Countering the group think narrative that Memphis is losing this trade and therefore going to lose Jokic is not violating my "principles" and if that Clippers pick conveys into a top 3 pick, that's a pretty solid retooling for Memphis. I do not support any argument that Jokic should leave this team unless there's ample evidence to suggest the real life Jokic is fed up with poor playoff results. |
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Post by Jared Montini on Apr 19, 2022 19:50:10 GMT
Yeah, RFA even irl is only for players first entering the league Wait… yeah Jokic is on his second contract, I was confused for a minute as well. I didn’t realize he’s been in the league so long, holy shit I’m getting old. Yeah that’s tough, but if I’m adding my two cents as someone that got voted “should be more active”, this isn’t a terrible trade, but then again I’m not that high on Mitchell either. He’s essentially playing at his ceiling, and he clearly doesn’t show any capabilities of making his team better when it matters. Don’t believe me, just look at Utah over the last few seasons in the playoffs. They’re always a paper Tiger. Also the team Jokic would potentially be surrounded with after this trade is probably better than the team he has irl. I agree with you. The trade itself is fair value imo. Mitchell ceiling isn’t much higher than it currently is. What makes the deal brutal is that this looks awful for jokic. Imagine the nuggets irl trading MPJ and Murray for Bey KJ and picks. He would be mad at the teams direction |
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Post by Tom Izzo on Apr 19, 2022 19:58:22 GMT
How can you say that lol point me to one piece of evidence that says Jokic would be mad and demand a trade in that scenario. People making these claims are putting unnecessary fear out there. The only argument that Jokic should leave is "he's a star player and I think he'd want some help to win a championship because some other star players really value championships and I'm a fan of this game and also highly value championships and don't care about quality of life that organizations bring, bosses (coaches) that I work for, neighborhoods I put my family in, schools, or other intangibles that normal humans consider when choosing a place of work"
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Post by Jared Montini on Apr 19, 2022 20:03:45 GMT
Jokic has lost kat and Mitchell the past 2 seasons and now plays with sadiq Bey and Seth curry.
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Gary Payton
Former Thunder GM
Rookie
Posts: 129
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Post by Gary Payton on Apr 19, 2022 20:08:37 GMT
Wait… yeah Jokic is on his second contract, I was confused for a minute as well. I didn’t realize he’s been in the league so long, holy shit I’m getting old. Yeah that’s tough, but if I’m adding my two cents as someone that got voted “should be more active”, this isn’t a terrible trade, but then again I’m not that high on Mitchell either. He’s essentially playing at his ceiling, and he clearly doesn’t show any capabilities of making his team better when it matters. Don’t believe me, just look at Utah over the last few seasons in the playoffs. They’re always a paper Tiger. Also the team Jokic would potentially be surrounded with after this trade is probably better than the team he has irl. I agree with you. The trade itself is fair value imo. Mitchell ceiling isn’t much higher than it currently is. What makes the deal brutal is that this looks awful for jokic. Imagine the nuggets irl trading MPJ and Murray for Bey KJ and picks. He would be mad at the teams direction I mean this is subjective, and it’s a bit different scenarios. He’d only be trading the equivalent of Murray, but Murray was somewhat breaking out before the ACL injury, we can feasibly say he has another gear to get to. Mitchell has more or less been the same player since he got to the league, and as judging by the comments/league history, it isn’t working for the Grizzlies. Hypothetically, you could say a move for Bey, and Keldon plus the picks is an effort to show Jokic they’re making an effort to shake things up. Maybe Jokic would’ve considered leaving for greener pastures anyways considering the tandem with Spider hasn’t been successful. It’s a bunch of what if’s. I get the aesthetics of it, but I also think you guys are downplaying the potential assets Memphis are getting back. These aren’t rookies they’re taking back. Bey dropped a 50 ball this year, on top of his many 20/30 plus point game performances, and Keldon became second option on the Spurs. Plus the lottery pick could end up a top 5 pick. In a vacuum this is a good haul, but the timing is definitely gambling. Jokic is a FA. They’ll have to show him, they’re serious about winning to retain his services for sure, because so far the narrative is that he’s leaving. Shit even if Jokic leaves, Keldon, Bey, lottery pick, plus the other tradable assets don’t leave the Grizz in a bad place at all. |
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Post by James Kay on Apr 19, 2022 23:52:03 GMT
Thanks for playing sideline GM. You are truly a man of principle. I'm not sure of your point lol I intentionally made a narrative up to counter other people making things up, namely the instant comments of Jokic walking. Based on...what, exactly? Based on their opinions of Jokic wanting to leave? Is there ANY evidence to support that Jokic would leave a team? Has he made any demands in Denver? What exactly are people basing their opinions on? Jokic loves Memphis barbecue and he has a dope house in Memphis and doesn't care about anything except money and playing ball. See, I can make things up too. Now *****if***** there is argument from real life that Jokic would leave a team in free agency because of something similar to this, then sure - you have a point. Otherwise, the Jokic walking away chatter is projection nonsense. And besides, this current Memphis team has seen nearly zero success with Mitchell and Jokic together. That's a fact. Countering the group think narrative that Memphis is losing this trade and therefore going to lose Jokic is not violating my "principles" and if that Clippers pick conveys into a top 3 pick, that's a pretty solid retooling for Memphis. I do not support any argument that Jokic should leave this team unless there's ample evidence to suggest the real life Jokic is fed up with poor playoff results. My point is - and you are being deliberately obtuse to avoid it - that you are engaging in the same type of activity you decried in Discord. It doesn’t matter that you have rationalized it as justified in order to counter balance other commentary. You are still engaging in the exact sort of pre-approval trade discussion you railed against. In any case, this post was illuminating as to your perspective on free agency. You’ve argued in Discord, prior to your departure, that KD *must* leave because he left GSW in real life, whereas a fairly sizable group disagreed - pointing to very solid management by Chris Mullin, along with other more minute differences in team composition and D5 history as well. Similarly here, you are finding no cause for alarm of a potential Jokic departure because you find no basis for it in real life. Together, these indicate a perspective on free agency that is very strongly tied to real life decisions. Now - is this all self-motivated because you believe Giannis’s real-life personality traits strongly incline him to remain with the Rockets? I’m not sure. In any case, your team seems to be in a position to contend so I don’t think that’s really an issue anymore, if it ever was. However, I’d at least ask you to consider that not everyone agrees with this perspective on free agency, and I don’t think it’s unreasonable that we don’t. Two parts - and I’d argue the largest parts - of the fun of a sim league like D5 are 1) maintaining a different universe where different combinations of players join up to either success or failure and experience different careers than real life; and 2) engaging in a competition where team management, and all its different philosophies and challenges, are the basis for that competition. Tying D5 free agency so strongly to real life tendencies undermines both of those aspects of our league. Jokic, and any other player who hasn’t switched teams in real life, doesn’t need to vocally declare a desire to change teams in order for that to be true in D5. What else would be the point of free agency except to enact real life NBA free agency moves? So there must be some basis upon which to judge free agency decisions. Here, a team with the consecutive two time MVP has just traded their co-star for rebuilding assets. It is reasonable to assume the MVP wants to win. Picks and young players are objectively less capable of achieving that. It is then reasonable to assume this will play a factor in his free agency decision. If we take your view, what could possibly incentivize Jokic to leave? Can MEM just load up on bad assets? Trade all their players for picks? Can MEM make any managerial decisions that would impact Jokic’s FA? |
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Post by Chauncey Billups on Apr 20, 2022 0:03:19 GMT
I just want some damn votes on this. The peanut gallery has spoken, we get it. It never ceases to amaze me how often my trades bring controversy.
This trade is one of the least rejectable trades I’ve been apart of. The value is completely fair for a guy like Mitchell. Obviously y’all see it differently. It seems like you all have deemed Mitchell untradeable without consequence to Jokic. That’s unfair and speculative at best.
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Post by Hanamichi Sakuragi on Apr 20, 2022 0:18:54 GMT
Memphis Grizzlies Receive: Keldon Johnson $1,930,200 $1,944,661 $1,954,785 Saddiq Bey $2,730,800 $2,861,100 $4,388,927, $6,166,443 Ilysova contract $8,089,735 LAC 2022 1st Round Pick Det 2023 1st Round Pick Det 2022-2024 Second Round Picks Total: $12,750,735 Detroit Pistons Receive: Donovan Mitchell $6,136,099 Davis Bertans $7,700,000 Total: $13,836,099 Reasons/plan: Obviously trading stars/superstars away is always met with a stigma, because usually the team doing so is rebuilding, however I want to make my intentions clear! The Grizzlies have ZERO intentions to rebuild whatsoever. We love Spider Mitchell as a player, and a scorer, however his style of play isn’t conducive to Jokic’s whom we believe is the best player in the league at the moment. His usage rate is T6 irl, yet somehow it doesn’t translate in this sim, and even if it did, it probably still wouldn’t be a good thing. We have every intention to build the team around Jokic, and surround him with complimentary skillsets. So far since I’ve took over the team, Spider Mitchell has been about the 4th most productive player for us. We also feel like both Keldon Johnson, and Saddiq Bey took huge steps this year offensively, while maintaining their reputation as good defenders. Keldon Johnson ended the regular season on a 9 game streak of 20+ point games. Averaging during that streak: 22.7 ppg, 6.1 reb, 3.2 ast. Both are good 3 pt shooters, guard multiple positions, and are developing nicely on rookie deals. They’re good enough to contribute now, plus I get a lottery pick, an additional first, and multiple seconds which should help me add other pieces as I get deeper into my tenure as the Grizzlies GM. Ultimately I think this is a fair package for a player thats a bit limited ceiling wise that will also likely command max dollars this summer. He’s also being traded out of conference so that’s a plus. Chauncey Billups to confirm 25% 16% 25% 14% 6% Total = 86% |
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Post by Bryan Colangelo on Apr 20, 2022 4:29:52 GMT
Lol. You are informing the league admin on how Bird Rights work? I would maybe take another look. Nothing is keeping Jokic in MEM except an extra year of money, and some vague conception of "loyalty." Yeah I just realized Restricted FA’s essentially aren’t a thing in this league, no wonder it’s so top heavy…. Any who, Jokic isn’t a FA irl until 2023, hard to say if he’d just up and leave a playoff team or not. I probably wouldn’t have made this trade if I realized their aren’t RFA, but that’s also my fault so it is what it is. With this quote, are we to fault a new GM for not knowing this? I feel Monty Williams you could have confirmed with someone before agreeing to this deal and I respect you took onus for this error but before we vote, I would like Ian Noble to state if we should give the new GM a break or put this to votes. I know in the past, we are pretty strict on new GM's making trades, especially star players. I'd like to give Monty Williams a second chance. If this was a vet GM, on the other hand, this should 100% go to votes. |
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Post by Ian Noble on Apr 20, 2022 10:07:14 GMT
I reject. There's the ugly scene of a brand new GM trading away their foundational centrepieces the same week they're hired, coupled with how damaging it is one month away from the trade deadline to put your team on a rebuilding trajectory with an expiring MVP looking on, surrounded by no help. ^ all of that made me want to reject but kinda wasn't quite enough to justify rejecting since I know this will be painful for Chauncey Billups having the rug pulled from under him on a trade that establishes his Pistons as one of the league's elite. But on top of that we now know Monty Williams wasn't aware of the implications of having to re-sign Jokic this off season, thinking Jokic was a RFA when he wont be. |
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Post by Chauncey Billups on Apr 20, 2022 10:20:39 GMT
That’s a damn shame, it really is. The value that Monty is receiving for Mitchell is more than fair.
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Post by Tom Izzo on Apr 20, 2022 10:24:31 GMT
Last 4 years for Memphis:
2022: Currently 5th seed
2021: R1 loss
2020: R2 loss
2019: R2 loss
2018: Lottery
Meanwhile, division rivals loaded up on talent. Houston has Giannis, DeRozan, Holiday. San Antonio with Luka, PG, and AD. Golden State remains a league powerhouse.
Jokic has never indicated he wants to leave a team for competitive reasons. Anything to suggest as such is speculation and projection. I've always strongly disagreed with the notion that stars always want to leave to form super teams. Since we decide internally what happens to free agents, I err on drawing from real life. As fans, the only thing we care about is winning, and I fear we project that far too much onto these players. PLENTY of examples exist of players choosing money, city, coaches, personal legacy, etc. Not everything is about chasing championships.
I do think teams must face consequences if they terribly mismanage their team. However, this is NOT that example. This is a move to retool and shake things up while loading up on assets and building around their star player. I would not support Jokic leaving when his current team is literally a perennial 1st or 2nd round exit as it's currently constructed with little hope of improving. Is Memphis going to subjected to being the 3rd best team in that division for years?
Memphis will be forced to max Mitchell this summer or lose him for nothing if he doesn't want to pay that money. And if he doesn't want to pay the money, would the league force him to?
I lean on real life examples because I believe all of us are biased. The loudest people opposing this trade just so happen to be Eastern conference competitors. I believe bias clouds judgement.
We aim to replicate realism as much as possible and I simply so not support star players leaving teams who have no real life history or evidence to suggest they would.
And no, this has nothing to do with Giannis. I just don't like introducing interpretation that is created by your own perception without valid reason.
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Post by Jerry West on Apr 20, 2022 10:37:18 GMT
"Jokic never indicated he wanted to leave a team for competitive reasons"
Yeah, because he never needed to.
Why write a 10k word document when it's straight up dumb after the first phrase
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Post by Tom Izzo on Apr 20, 2022 10:44:06 GMT
So then anything you argue is speculation and projection based on nothing except your personal feelings and nothing objectively real. Just your opinion that Jokic would leave because he wants to win. Because you think that without any evidence to back it up.
Is Jokic at risk of leaving this summer with another R1 exit if Memphis keeps Mitchell?
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Post by Tom Izzo on Apr 20, 2022 10:47:26 GMT
Jerry West and being generally negative and toxic name me a better duo
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Post by Jared Montini on Apr 20, 2022 11:03:47 GMT
So then anything you argue is speculation and projection based on nothing except your personal feelings and nothing objectively real. Just your opinion that Jokic would leave because he wants to win. Because you think that without any evidence to back it up. Is Jokic at risk of leaving this summer with another R1 exit if Memphis keeps Mitchell? Kawhi left PHX in here(before he ever left irl), Tim Duncan left to a new team, we have clearly set a precedent where if you run your team solid that player will most likely stay. However if a team has shown signs of regression and trades away 2 allstars in a year for 0 allstars, that player can walk. Will he 100% walk? I can’t definitively say that. But does trading an allstar for depth and picks make sense when your 2 time mvp is an impending FA? Not at all |
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Post by Tom Izzo on Apr 20, 2022 11:09:10 GMT
I vehemently disagree with that Kawhi decision, as I've stated before, and believe the league made a mistake that we can learn from if we choose. I don't know anything about the Duncan situation though.
But my question remains - if Memphis keeps Mitchell and loses in R1, while facing Houston and San Antonio as division rivals in better team situations for the foreseeable future, does Jokic walk?
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Post by Jared Montini on Apr 20, 2022 11:17:53 GMT
I vehemently disagree with that Kawhi decision, as I've stated before, and believe the league made a mistake that we can learn from if we choose. I don't know anything about the Duncan situation though. But my question remains - if Memphis keeps Mitchell and loses in R1, while facing Houston and San Antonio as division rivals in better team situations for the foreseeable future, does Jokic walk? Idk, I’m not a PA. I mentioned last week that jokic should see his options regardless but he’d be more inclined to re sign with Mitchell rather than sadiq bey. You’re advocating for every player to just stay with there team in here unless they state they want out irl. So am I chilling for tatums 2nd contract? Do I have 0 pressure to do anything to my team since tatum has never expressed wanting to leave? |
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Post by Tom Izzo on Apr 20, 2022 11:24:00 GMT
You know my stance on this...
Yes. I do not think Tatum should be leaving at all. Maybe after this next contract the pressure is on... But not this one. That's my opinion
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Post by Ian Noble on Apr 20, 2022 11:29:09 GMT
That’s a damn shame, it really is. The value that Monty is receiving for Mitchell is more than fair. I agree, but it's everything else that surrounds the deal. And I am sincerely sorry Chauncey, the pain of having an opportunity like this snatched away from you is awful, I empathise. |
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Post by Jared Montini on Apr 20, 2022 11:31:19 GMT
You know my stance on this... Yes. I do not think Tatum should be leaving at all. Maybe after this next contract the pressure is on... But not this one. That's my opinion I stated the 2nd time around. Why would he leave me 5 years from now if he never leaves irl? You literally just said that unless a player wants to leave irl he can’t leave here. So as long as Tatum loves Boston I can do whatver I want. |
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Post by Tom Izzo on Apr 20, 2022 11:36:45 GMT
You know my stance on this... Yes. I do not think Tatum should be leaving at all. Maybe after this next contract the pressure is on... But not this one. That's my opinion I stated the 2nd time around. Why would he leave me 5 years from now if he never leaves irl? You literally just said that unless a player wants to leave irl he can’t leave here. So as long as Tatum loves Boston I can do whatver I want. I mean not anything you want but yes. I believe teams should be able to retain their star players unless those players have indicated through their real life decisions that they want to leave teams to play with other stars (LeBron, AD, Kawhi come to mind). Memphis is the 3rd best team in their division and has never even been to the WCF. Last GM traded away KAT. So is Jokic at risk of leaving with another poor playoff performance WITH Mitchell? Nobody is answering that question for me. Rejecting this trade forces Memphis to retain Mitchell when the combination is already clearly not working. On top of that, fear mongering a Jokic departure from Memphis is detached from reality and just not fair to the GM or to the league tbh. |
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Post by James Kay on Apr 20, 2022 12:35:51 GMT
You know my stance on this... Yes. I do not think Tatum should be leaving at all. Maybe after this next contract the pressure is on... But not this one. That's my opinion You hardly responded to the point of my post at all. At the very least, you must recognize this is a difference of opinion and one that is reasonable. We’re not “creating narratives.” This is the way D5 FA runs. Many others in the league view it this way. You are the one with a different opinion calling us “toxic.” I respect that you want to base D5 FA nearly entirely on real life. I disagree, and made my points about why, but you’re fine to operate that way. That doesn’t make the rest of us toxic “narrative creators” for not agreeing with you. Give it a rest. |
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Post by Jerry West on Apr 20, 2022 19:18:01 GMT
You know my stance on this... Yes. I do not think Tatum should be leaving at all. Maybe after this next contract the pressure is on... But not this one. That's my opinion Interesting, the pressure should be on for Tatum when he's 2nd contract is up, but not for Jokic when he's 2nd contract is up.
I'm sure there's no bias reason for this reasonable take from 2 players that have never shown a desire to leave irl
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Post by Tom Izzo on Apr 20, 2022 19:20:30 GMT
I said maybe and then followed it up with my next post clarifying my stance. Ignore it if you want.
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Post by Ian Noble on Apr 20, 2022 19:41:13 GMT
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Post by Alex English on Apr 20, 2022 23:39:50 GMT
This is an interesting one. I agree the value on this trade is fine, but trades aren't made in a vacuum, and lots has been said about the effect this has on Memphis. There is a lot of unnecessary risk created for them, and add in the look of a new GM immediately trading away a star player, and some confusion about the rules, and that there'd have been second thoughts if the rules had been fully understood, and it all becomes kinda messy.
If Monty doubled down on wanting the trade knowing all the correct information, or if this trade happened in the summer after Jokic re-signed, I'd accept. As it stands though, I'll go with a reject on this one.
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Post by Danny Longley on Apr 21, 2022 1:48:22 GMT
Going to reject. I do feel like the value for Mitchell is fine, but I agree that not knowing the rules is a reason for concern.
Like the others, I'd likely change my mind as well if Monty were to reaffirm that he'd be willing to go through with this trade knowing that Jokic isn't 100% to stay. For now though, it's a no.
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Post by Tom Izzo on Apr 21, 2022 5:52:06 GMT
How many of these GMs with cap space are going to be messaging Jokic's player agent this summer after another 1st or 2nd round exit:
"Mitchell and you clearly aren't working out. The previous GM traded away KAT and now you're stuck with Mitchell and remain the third best team in your division with no end in sight yet. It'd be in Jokic's best competitive interests to join my team in another division where we could go further in the playoffs and become a true championship contender"
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