2021/22 Injury List

[Hanamichi Sakuragi]

Apr 12, 2022 15:31:16 GMT Tom Izzo said:

I think people want LeBron out for personal gain and it's clouding their judgement. Our rules allow these very grey areas and we almost always side on the liberal side of letting them play.

Nope. We have bias but the stance as presented by Josh is actually standing in good grounds.

Just the reality that those who are fine with letting Lebron James play are coming up with,

"Classic case"
"Personal gains"
"Assumptions"

As their reasons while Josh is grinding and putting up facts and evidences should be a good picture of which side is actually thinking the right way here.

[Hanamichi Sakuragi]

Apr 12, 2022 16:34:02 GMT Andrei Kirilenko said:

Another question is the "in doubt" phrase in Rule 6. If we have doubt about LeBron's injury being Grade 3, then the rule suggests we err on the side of caution and do not place him on the IR.

Let us say there is doubt because they are out of the playoffs

That should still be engulfed by the 4-6 weeks estimate of him not being able to play.

[Andrei Kirilenko]

Apr 12, 2022 16:47:34 GMT Hanamichi Sakuragi said:

Apr 12, 2022 16:34:02 GMT Andrei Kirilenko said:

Another question is the "in doubt" phrase in Rule 6. If we have doubt about LeBron's injury being Grade 3, then the rule suggests we err on the side of caution and do not place him on the IR.

Let us say there is doubt because they are out of the playoffs

That should still be engulfed by the 4-6 weeks estimate of him not being able to play.

I think the question is if the 4-6 week estimate itself is in doubt due to it coming at the end of the season. Would the prognosis be the same if the Lakers were in the playoffs? If we think it is in doubt, then we can't reliably use it to determine what grade ankle sprain LeBron has, and as such we cannot conclusively say he should be out in D5.

[Steve Nash]

Not sure where I fall on this yet, and perhaps it should come down to a vote, but there's one thing I'm not clear on.

I'm not sure I interpreted the news the same as Josh. The tweet states he'll have to "stay off it" to let it recover, but to me that's different than non-weight bearing for 4-6 weeks.

Maybe this is me assuming, but to me "stay off it" is a common phrase you say with this kind of injury. Obviously if you have a knee injury or foot injury or ankle injury, you shouldn't be jumping around on it and make it worse. You should "stay off it" and prevent aggravation. But that doesn't mean you can't walk on it carefully, workout other parts of the body, get shots up, and certainly not be non-weight bearing. I think that's an important distinction to make when judging the severity of the injury.

But I guess if you take the tweet entirely literally, you get to where Josh arrived. Just comes to a matter of interpretation.

Just my two cents. Would be happy to hear other's thoughts.

[Andrei Kirilenko]

bump

[Brian Scalabrine]

It would be absolutely absurd to take LeBron out

[Andrei Kirilenko]

Apr 17, 2022 20:50:55 GMT Brian Scalabrine said:

It would be absolutely absurd to take LeBron out

Can someone put together an argument based on our rules explaining this? Are you in the “evidence is unreliable as it is the end of the season” camp?

[Ian Noble]

[James Kay]

Apr 10, 2022 17:40:03 GMT Ian Noble said:

Apr 9, 2022 6:33:12 GMT Hanamichi Sakuragi said:

It was due to an injury.

I see the vultures are circling but...

May 1, 2015 19:33:41 GMT Ian Noble said:

Player Injuries

• When a player's real-life team is eliminated from competition and they opt for an end of season surgery they will not be added to the injury list at D5 unless, when the next season rolls around, they are still injured from the surgery.

Sorry to spoil the party guys. LeBron James (left ankle sprain) does not qualify as a 6 week+ injury.

Hey Ian Noble, I'm not saying that I think Lebron should be out. However, he didn't get a surgery so I don't see how this rule applies. I get how the spirit of this rule might apply, in that end-of-season rehab choices might look very different than in-season rehab choices, but as written, this rule has no bearing on Lebron's situation.

I wouldn't even be opposed to a rule amendment prior to a decision on Lebron's injury status. Usually, that would run the risk of the appearance of impropriety - modifying the rules for your own players. However, in this instance, it would clear up a great deal of ambiguity that the rules currently create, and likely simply clarify the rule.

In any case, we can't just say a rule that only considers surgery applies to a player that didn't get surgery. This needs to be addressed for future players and future injuries.

[James Kay]

Mar 24, 2022 19:31:18 GMT James Kay said:

Mar 22, 2022 23:00:32 GMT Ian Noble said:

James Kay - John Collins injured.

I guess that means he's out also

Ian Noble

Also, I don't believe Richaun is injured. He is out for "personal reasons," and that wasn't enough to take Simmons or any other healthy player out in D5, so not sure why it's happening here.

bumping this as well.

[Ian Noble]

Apr 18, 2022 15:31:32 GMT James Kay said:

Apr 10, 2022 17:40:03 GMT Ian Noble said:

I see the vultures are circling but...

Sorry to spoil the party guys. LeBron James (left ankle sprain) does not qualify as a 6 week+ injury.

Hey Ian Noble, I'm not saying that I think Lebron should be out. However, he didn't get a surgery so I don't see how this rule applies. I get how the spirit of this rule might apply, in that end-of-season rehab choices might look very different than in-season rehab choices, but as written, this rule has no bearing on Lebron's situation.

I wouldn't even be opposed to a rule amendment prior to a decision on Lebron's injury status. Usually, that would run the risk of the appearance of impropriety - modifying the rules for your own players. However, in this instance, it would clear up a great deal of ambiguity that the rules currently create, and likely simply clarify the rule.

In any case, we can't just say a rule that only considers surgery applies to a player that didn't get surgery. This needs to be addressed for future players and future injuries.

Yes agreed. We basically need to amend the rule so that it applies properly. Lebron took himself out as his season was ending, and whatever's going on now it seems like he fits the expected 6 week rule.

So the solution to this is amending the rule so that it does apply in this situation, because that's what the original rule was supposed to apply to. That's how I'd handle it for any player that isn't on my team, but of course Josh wont see it that way. In fact the reason I've not really engaged on this front so far is because Josh is exhausting me

[Andrei Kirilenko]

I think the new rule is much better than the old 2 rules.

We still need to determine though if the severity of LeBron's ankle injury would usually be a 6+ week injury, no? Refer to my previous post about severity of his ankle sprain:

Despite LeBron himself saying it is a 6+ week injury, our rules dictate that we should look at the usual recovery timeline for an ankle injury. This is a great article that I found discussing NBA timelines for different ankle injuries. The synopsis is as such:

Grade 1 sprain: 0-2 weeks
Grade 2 sprain: 2-5 weeks
Grade 3 sprain: 6 to 8 weeks

Anthony Davis himself missed 7 weeks this very season with a sprained ankle (presumably grade 2 or 3).

We don't know what Grade ankle injury Lebron has- but since we have a timeline from LeBron himself of 5.5 to 7.5 weeks just to put weight on it, it seems to most likely line up with a Grade 3 sprain. Although we are not using LeBron's timeline to directly say he has a 6+ week injury, I do think it is fair to use his timeline to judge what type of injury he actually has, so that we can assess the usual recovery time for that injury.

This is obviously the most crucial element of an argument either way- which grade of sprain do we think he actually has? I believe the evidence we have supports that he has a Grade 3 sprain, but I also will admit that the evidence is inherently unreliable since the season is over. Would he really not put weight on it for 5.5 to 7.5 weeks if the Lakers were still playing?

[Ian Noble]

Apr 18, 2022 20:54:12 GMT Andrei Kirilenko said:

I think the new rule is much better than the old 2 rules.

We still need to determine though if the severity of LeBron's ankle injury would usually be a 6+ week injury, no? Refer to my previous post about severity of his ankle sprain:

Despite LeBron himself saying it is a 6+ week injury, our rules dictate that we should look at the usual recovery timeline for an ankle injury. This is a great article that I found discussing NBA timelines for different ankle injuries. The synopsis is as such:

Grade 1 sprain: 0-2 weeks
Grade 2 sprain: 2-5 weeks
Grade 3 sprain: 6 to 8 weeks

Anthony Davis himself missed 7 weeks this very season with a sprained ankle (presumably grade 2 or 3).

We don't know what Grade ankle injury Lebron has- but since we have a timeline from LeBron himself of 5.5 to 7.5 weeks just to put weight on it, it seems to most likely line up with a Grade 3 sprain. Although we are not using LeBron's timeline to directly say he has a 6+ week injury, I do think it is fair to use his timeline to judge what type of injury he actually has, so that we can assess the usual recovery time for that injury.

This is obviously the most crucial element of an argument either way- which grade of sprain do we think he actually has? I believe the evidence we have supports that he has a Grade 3 sprain, but I also will admit that the evidence is inherently unreliable since the season is over. Would he really not put weight on it for 5.5 to 7.5 weeks if the Lakers were still playing?

But was Lebron shutting it down because the Lakers season is over? Everyone else thinks he was.

Frankly I don't even mind losing Lebron for 6 weeks, that's just in time for the start of our playoffs, but if the wording of the rule needs amending I'm open to suggestions.

[James Kay]

Apr 18, 2022 21:17:47 GMT Ian Noble said:

Frankly I don't even mind losing Lebron for 6 weeks, that's just in time for the start of our playoffs, but if the wording of the rule needs amending I'm open to suggestions.

Once again, I'm refraining from opining whether Lebron should be out. However, I am confused as to the implication here that players can be brought back after their season has ended and they have been declared out. I can't remember a time where a player has been declared healthy after having gone into the IRL off-season injured. Further, I can't find any reference in the rules to such a procedure.

From my understanding of both 1) the rules as they're written; and 2) previous D5 injury decisions, if Lebron is declared "out," then he stays out until next season. If I'm wrong on either count, please feel free to correct me by pointing to the rule or previous injury decision.

EDIT: I do see this in the rules, "Players are returned to active roster positions when they become considered as healed." Was this always there? I don't remember that.

[Arvydas Sabonis]

I think this is just a ridiculous conversation.

After the season is over any player would choose the most conservative treatment to ensure there won't be any long term lingering issues. Even if 4 weeks is needed, it's better to take 6 or 7, specifically in his age. So the given timeline is bs unless we actually get a confirmation it was grade 3 sprain.
But if it's grade 2 AND Lakers would have made playoffs, I would bet a lot of money that he would tape it up and suit up for an important game 7 in 3-4 weeks time of the injury. There is a historic reference for stars playing through ankle injuries in the past. Just toughen it up and play through the pain with some heavy taping. For ankle injuries that is imo feasible as it's unlikely to do too much additional damage that couldn't be healed with long recovery during off-season.
For something like ACL tear, players wouldn't not just play through. Although theoretically it's possible, risk of injuring something else like meniscus is much much higher.

I wouldn't take him out for the rest of the season (incl playoffs). Maybe taking him out for next 6 weeks, but then returning in playoffs would be the compromise, but I don't think that is what Josh is after

[Tom Izzo]

When we have grey area I think the best we can do is general consensus. It's a guess.

General consensus was that Ben Simmons was only out due to the Sixers situation. That it wasn't a real injury. Then it turned out he was really injured so we were wrong about that and took him out.

I feel like the general consensus here is that LeBron should not be out. Is it completely correct? That's hard to say but I'm only seeing 2, maybe 3, people arguing for LeBron to be out (and one person arguing to amend the rule to actually let LeBron play). It seems the consensus is LeBron should be in

[Andrei Kirilenko]

I never was strictly advocating one way or the other, I just wanted us to go through the exercise of actually thinking this out, because it is much more grey than I think a lot of GMs are making it out to be.

I think we are still muddying the waters a bit- it doesn't matter if we think he would / wouldn't play in the playoffs, why he stopped playing in the regular season, if we think his injury timeline is exaggerated because they are eliminated, etc. It only matters what the usual timeline for this sort of injury is, and if that timeline is over 6 weeks.

We have some evidence suggesting it is a Grade 2 or Grade 3 sprain, but the consensus is that we aren't sure if the evidence is reliable or not. Therefore, we aren't comfortable saying it is definitively Grade 2 or Grade 3, and therefore are not comfortable putting him on IR.

I am fine with this logic if that is the position that we want to take, but someone needs to actually say that is the reason he isn't going to be out! Even Ian's last post muddied the waters more- so now it is a 6+ week injury, but we would bring him back for the D5 playoffs? Have we ever done something like that before?

It seems like we are starting with a conclusion and working our way backwards, rather than starting with the rules and developing a conclusion based on them. My entire agenda around this is just to advocate for a fair interpretation and application of the D5 rules. Which, as I've said, I think a conclusion either direction can be justified- but we owe it to the league to actually do a rules-based interpretation of a very grey conclusion.

[Steve Nash]

Anyone else see LeBron's Instagram story on the weekend of him back in a basketball gym being a "gym 🐀"? He had his shoes on and everything.

Now it's hard to say exactly what he was doing, but he was clearly weight bearing and doing some kind of basketball activity.

[Ian Noble]

FWIW Lebron has already been removed from the Injury List we use to inform the league process, the same injury list my coded system will be pulling from when it's in action, so it seems safe to say the ankle sprain was not serious.

Andrei Kirilenko certainly we can't make a conclusion and then work back from it, I don't think that's what any of us have been doing though, we've seen a "sprain", seen it's the end of the Lakers season, and seen Lebron taking (as Arvydas Sabonis said) the most "conservative" route possible and that's enough evidence, and from the subsequent evidence it looks like Lebron is fine now. Likewise it would also be massively presumptuous to ascertain the severity of the ankle sprain from the length of time Lebron tweeted it might take to heal.

Yes it's good to have a system that's as codified as possible, I don't believe we've gone outside the bounds of that system anywhere in this process - it's always a fairly laid back affair where we use our best judgement and try not to exploit technicalities for gain. (edit: apologies I'm not saying you were specifically Mr Barber, just a general statement on the process)

[Brad Stevens]

Should SGA be out?  I'm fine with it either way but I don't want it pointed out as soon as I make the play-in/playoffs either.

Ian Noble

[Hanamichi Sakuragi]

.

[Ian Noble]

Apr 19, 2022 21:06:29 GMT Brad Stevens said:

Should SGA be out?  I'm fine with it either way but I don't want it pointed out as soon as I make the play-in/playoffs either.

Ian Noble

Not according to the automated system that I already have set up and working (I'm just making additions and tweaking stuff), so I think you're fine.

[Amare Stoudemire]

Larry Nance Jr should not be on the injury list he returned a while ago
Ian Noble

[Andrei Kirilenko]

I feel like we need to re-examine some of the players on our injury list. Any players who went out in March (i.e. less than 6 weeks left) are subject to seeing if their injury usually would result in a player being out 6+ weeks. Here are the players I think we should re-evaluate:

Richaun Holmes - missed 3.5 weeks. Not even injured (out for personal reasons- legal accusations)
Derrick Favors - missed 5.5 weeks. Lower back soreness.
Khem Birch - not sure why he is out, he was playing in the regular season and in the playoffs
Anfernee Simons - missed 5 weeks. Knee patellar tendinopathy (aka Jumpers Knee)

[Hanamichi Sakuragi]

Joe.....

[Andrei Kirilenko]

Apr 29, 2022 16:55:34 GMT Andrei Kirilenko said:

I feel like we need to re-examine some of the players on our injury list. Any players who went out in March (i.e. less than 6 weeks left) are subject to seeing if their injury usually would result in a player being out 6+ weeks. Here are the players I think we should re-evaluate:

Richaun Holmes - missed 3.5 weeks. Not even injured (out for personal reasons- legal accusations)
Derrick Favors - missed 5.5 weeks. Lower back soreness.
Khem Birch - not sure why he is out, he was playing in the regular season and in the playoffs
Anfernee Simons - missed 5 weeks. Knee patellar tendinopathy (aka Jumpers Knee)

Ian Noble

[Ian Noble]

May 2, 2022 13:50:48 GMT Andrei Kirilenko said:

Apr 29, 2022 16:55:34 GMT Andrei Kirilenko said:

I feel like we need to re-examine some of the players on our injury list. Any players who went out in March (i.e. less than 6 weeks left) are subject to seeing if their injury usually would result in a player being out 6+ weeks. Here are the players I think we should re-evaluate:

Richaun Holmes - missed 3.5 weeks. Not even injured (out for personal reasons- legal accusations)
Derrick Favors - missed 5.5 weeks. Lower back soreness.
Khem Birch - not sure why he is out, he was playing in the regular season and in the playoffs
Anfernee Simons - missed 5 weeks. Knee patellar tendinopathy (aka Jumpers Knee)

Ian Noble

Back home from Manchester and addressing these now.

Richaun Holmes - I think we need a wider discussion about whether we consider a player injured. Richaun here definitely falls in a similar ballpark as Ben Simmons and Kyrie Irving this season, in that they're not actually injured but they are missing time. In my opinion, in retrospect, all three should've been considered "injured" because they were simply not playing for their teams for "personal", and therefore entirely down to themselves, reasons. On the other hand we have guys who are/were out because their team wanted to tank or something, like John Wall, and Al Horford last year, who are out due to their teams and not due to their own personal reasons.

Favors - actually is injured already, no change

Khem Birch - Bryan Colangelo he's healed.

Simons - is already injured also.,

[Andrei Kirilenko]

I meant that I think those guys should not be injured, rather than that they should.

[Jerry West]

List of players listed as "injured" for OKC:

Theo Maledon, Poku, JRE, Lindy Watters, Aaron Wiggins, Ty Jerome, Mike Muscala, Derrick Favors, Kenrich Williams, Darius Bazley, Lu Dort, SGA, Josh Giddey.

The only player on that list that got an actual injury was Dort who had to get surgery, the rest was for tanking reasons. They literally sitted out the entire team! Saying that Giddey wasn't shut down for tanking reasons is disingenuous. The only reason Josh Giddey was shut down earlier due to a "hip soreness" that lasted 7 weeks (of which btw, there is no precedent) was because he wins more games than the likes of Lindy Watters or Theo Maledon.

A precedent was set last year, and this isn't even a different NBA team, it was on the SAME team, who had the same problem of a strong start that wouldn't allow them to have high lottery odds, and used these tactics AGAIN in order to improve their pick, and given that the precedent exists, it would only be fair for Giddey, who once again, is on the same team as Horford was, shouldn't be on the IR.

Fun fact, here's the list of players that played for the Thunder in the last game of the season, and how many players they played in this season:

Georgios Kalaitzakis (13 / Started 4) - Only played for the Thunder in the last 4 games, averaged 41.5 minutes, including a 48 minute game.

Zavier Simpson (4 / Started 4) - Only played for the Thunder in the last 4 games, averaged 43.5 minutes

Jaylen Hoard (7 /Started 5) - Only played for the Thunder in the last 7 games, averaged 34.3 minutes

Vit Krejci (30 / Started 8)

Isaiah Roby (45 / Started 28)

Melvin Frazier (3 / Started 0) - Only played for the Thunder in the last 3 games, averaged 40 minutes, his TS% was 31

Giddey was out 44 days, the deadline for D5 being set at 42 (if you consider 6 weeks exactly, if you consider a month and a half it would be 45 days and he wouldn't even be out), if the season was 1 game shorter or if Giddey had played 1 more game before being shut down, this conversation wouldn't even exist. Was he going to comeback and play some games with Georgios Kalaitzakis and Melvin Frazier? For the entire month of April the best player on the Thunder was Isaiah Roby, for obvious tanking reasons. Why would we expect Giddey to comeback in that situation?

Bazley and Tre Mann didn't play since March 26, SGA since March 21, hell even Poku was sitted out to make sure they lost to Detroit, played 1 game back, and got benched again for putting up a triple-double. And those are the younger guys on the team! The season was over for every player on the actual Thunder roster in March, which by then Giddey wouldn't even eligible for the IR, and Giddey, because of 2 days, will be out when he clearly was being held out for tanking reasons and a precedent was set on the same team last year? I'm sorry but that's unfair.

[Andrei Kirilenko]

Giddey literally missed 6+ weeks with a hip injury, your personal opinion on whether or not he was actually healed during that time doesn’t matter.