Jrue Holiday - MIA

[Danny Longley]

^{Miami Heat - Jrue Holiday}

Year 1: $30,560,700
Year 2: $32,852,752
Year 3: $35,144,805
Year 4: $37,436,857 (Player Option)

Jrue Holiday will be joining the Miami Heat for the 4-Year Maximum Contract as above. The ideal situation for Jrue would have been a team that could offer him both a home, a contending situation, and a maximum contract. But with no true contender able or willing to offer Jrue a maximum contract a week into free agency, Jrue was in a way - forced to settle. The following teams were considered.

New Orleans Pelicans
New Orleans may possibly have the best D5 situation of the three teams considered with Gordon Hayward, Jaren Jackson Jr. and Trae Young headlining their lineup and a stack of picks that could be flipped for talent as necessary. But the roster as a whole just did not have enough NBA proven talent as it stood, and majority of the committee involved could not consider sending a top free agent like the 28-year old Holiday to a bottom three team that was recently gutted.

Cleveland Cavaliers
The Cleveland Cavaliers were an odd case. Usually, re-signing teams would have the advantage due to loyalty and familiarity. But Jrue had only been with the Cavaliers for over half a season, and the Cavaliers were seen as a league extreme in disloyalty to signed Free Agents, having retained none of their signings over the last three years. The Cedi Osman trade became a final straw for some, splitting the committee in half.

Without a loyalty advantage, the Cavaliers simply did not have enough star power to compete with the other team in the race for Jrue's services. Had Jrue signed, the Cavaliers would not have any more cap to add more talent this OSFA, and even in the best case where Otto Porter would re-sign - once BR contracts would kick in, the Cavaliers would simply not have many ways to improve the roster.

Miami Heat

The Miami Heat aren't exactly the ideal situation either. With Steven Adams' max contract about to kick in, Jrue's signing would also put the Heat far above the cap with few ways to improve the roster. They also haven't exactly been the shining example of loyalty, having traded just about every star that's been on the roster.

But the Heat had the strongest overall roster with first time All-Star Goran Dragic and the recently re-signed Steven Adams, and they presented the best situation to compete immediately of the three teams involved.

[Andrei Kirilenko]

Tough break for Cleveland but I guess that’s the risk in trading for an expiring player. Miami is loaded with salary but has put together a decent team once again. Congrats, Troy!

[Ian Noble]

I feel for Hana, but I was one of the committee who chose MIA as my option because I think at some point loyalty has to play a role.

The Cedi trade was quite bad timing. Cedi being 7 of 7 free agents to sign with the Cavs and then get traded in the last 3 years, which according to Josh's thread makes CLE far and away the most disloyal franchise in the league. The "all in" strategy is really good for the league imho, but that doesn't mean loyalty disappears as a factor. It's important that GMs can trade players, even the ones they've recently signed, but when that applies to every player CLE has signed in the past 3 years, at some point it had to become a factor for a big name FA like Jrue who wasn't on Bird Rights and has ony been with the team since Jan/Feb.

[Hanamichi Sakuragi]

Loyalty to Jrue? Check my line-up. Do I have any pure PGs there? I traded my biggest asset for him! If that is not a sign of loyalty and affection to a player, then what is?

Star Power? Okay we do not have that. Why? Because Jrue was the main star of the team. So, he did not realize that when we went to war with him in the playoffs.

No way to improve the roster? What the ... I have 2019 PHX 1st, 2020 BKN 1st, Derrick White and Jordan Bell. What the...

And just for the record, I offered him 3+1 max.. 



Danny Longley

No disrespect Danny, but I demand you to breakdown your decision to these common factors..

1. Money Offered (Player Agents will work to keep salaries realistic, but it doesn't hurt to show you're committed)

2. Playing time.

3. The chances of success with your team (playoff/championship calibre)

4. How much dedication you have shown to the player.

5. The perceived effort you put into making an offer.

6. A player's perceived real-life personality traits.

PROVIDE US NUMBERS THAT SHOW THAT MIAMI WINS. 




Because I cannot see it. If you cannot do that. It means you made a wrong decision. And if that is not overturn, then I will just quit. 

[Kevin Hollis]

Ah, the empty quit threat. Seems like Danny made the right decision.

[Walt Frazier]

Jul 16, 2018 1:06:49 GMT Kevin Hollis said:

Ah, the empty quit threat. Seems like Danny made the right decision.

What if I told you...

This is not the only GM to threaten to quit over the Jrue Holiday decision?

[Jared Montini]

I think it was a good decision, Hana didn't have him for more than half a year. There should be no loyalty. Jrue chose where he'd be able to win

[Kevin Hollis]

Jul 16, 2018 1:12:30 GMT Walt Frazier said:

Jul 16, 2018 1:06:49 GMT Kevin Hollis said:

Ah, the empty quit threat. Seems like Danny made the right decision.

What if I told you...

This is not the only GM to threaten to quit over the Jrue Holiday decision?

I don’t understand how Jrue Holiday is causing this much commotion.

[Brian Scalabrine]

Jul 16, 2018 1:12:30 GMT Walt Frazier said:

Jul 16, 2018 1:06:49 GMT Kevin Hollis said:

Ah, the empty quit threat. Seems like Danny made the right decision.

What if I told you...

This is not the only GM to threaten to quit over the Jrue Holiday decision?

I promise it wasn't me lol

[Larry Bird]

So Jrue goes to the one team out of the three who already have an all star point guard??

[Mark Price]

Jul 16, 2018 1:38:09 GMT Larry Bird said:

So Jrue goes to the one team out of the three who already have an all star point guard??

That probably isn't a good look. I also had Dragic and another all-star point guard in Kemba. The sim didn't like those two together. But Miami has a much better team than I did last year.

[Walt Frazier]

Jul 16, 2018 1:38:09 GMT Larry Bird said:

So Jrue goes to the one team out of the three who already have an all star point guard??

Jrue and Goran can both play off ball pretty well, in fact Jrue just did it for this entire last season IRL.

That wasn't a huge factor either way. Basically, Jrue has proven he's an awesome guard, and can handle both roles.

[Hanamichi Sakuragi]

Jul 16, 2018 1:41:20 GMT Walt Frazier said:

Jul 16, 2018 1:38:09 GMT Larry Bird said:

So Jrue goes to the one team out of the three who already have an all star point guard??

Jrue and Goran can both play off ball pretty well, in fact Jrue just did it for this entire last season IRL.

That wasn't a huge factor either way. Basically, Jrue has proven he's an awesome guard, and can handle both roles.

Here is my biggest problem with that, that WAS IN REAL LIFE! 

Why would D5 Holiday conclude that he is better at the 2?

And here is another point Walt, Goran is very different from Rondo. Goran is a bucket getter. Rondo is a playmaker. 

NOP replace Rondo with whom? Yes, another playmaker in Payton.

[Walt Frazier]

Jul 16, 2018 1:47:27 GMT Hanamichi Sakuragi said:

Jul 16, 2018 1:41:20 GMT Walt Frazier said:

Jrue and Goran can both play off ball pretty well, in fact Jrue just did it for this entire last season IRL.

That wasn't a huge factor either way. Basically, Jrue has proven he's an awesome guard, and can handle both roles.

Here is my biggest problem with that, that WAS IN REAL LIFE! 

Why would D5 Holiday conclude that he is better at the 2?

And here is another point Walt, Goran is very different from Rondo. Goran is a bucket getter. Rondo is a playmaker. 

NOP replace Rondo with whom? Yes, another playmaker in Payton.

We "sim"-ulate real life here Hanamichi, that's the deal. That's why we even consider things like the players real-life personality. Kind of obvious.

GM's can experiment with lineups once they have their players, and IMO, that's not a very big deal. But players still have to decide to go to that team (if it's Free Agency).

The point with Jrue + Dragic is that both can handle both roles. Dragic isn't in the way of Jrue as a PG b/c either one could play either role.

[Tom Izzo]

Being on the wait list reading this thread

Attachments:

[Alex English]

I almost feel like D5 members that threaten to quit should be encouraged to do so. Especially at a time when we have a bunch of people on the wait list that still log in regularly even though they don't even have a team. This is just a game, if you're not having fun, you don't have to be here. Like any game though, sometimes you fail and have to retry that level a few more times.

It's really tiresome to have any decision that isn't a bird rights player re-signing result in arguments. Could you imagine if Dan Gilbert was a D5 GM right about now? He'd be losing his fucking mind and trying to burn this place to the ground over losing LeBron.

I get that it can be frustrating to lose out on your guy, but I think D5 does a pretty good job of simulating the real NBA. We're at least doing the best we can. All major decisions are made by committee (PS this is why free agency takes so long now), and even then it often comes down to split decisions. The player can only go to one place though so... someone is being disappointed no matter what. Everyone is going to have to take their turn being that team that feels let down. 30 teams can't all get their way at the same time.

I've really grown to dislike the 3-4 weeks of D5 free agency. Maybe it's because I'm a player agent every season, but It's just the worst time of the year imo. I'm probably not alone in feeling this way.

Has this post become a douchey rant? Whatever

[Jeremiah Hill]

Hana I love ya as a competitive GM. Don't quit over Jrue Holiday.

[Danny Longley]

Edited top post, Ian Noble . Forgot to add the player option when I was correcting the max money.

Jul 16, 2018 0:38:09 GMT Hanamichi Sakuragi said:

1. Money Offered (Player Agents will work to keep salaries realistic, but it doesn't hurt to show you're committed)

2. Playing time.

3. The chances of success with your team (playoff/championship calibre)

4. How much dedication you have shown to the player.

5. The perceived effort you put into making an offer.

6. A player's perceived real-life personality traits.

PROVIDE US NUMBERS THAT SHOW THAT MIAMI WINS. 

I don't quite get what you mean, asking for numbers regarding factors that are largely subjective but if you want me to compare the Cavs and the Heat, then here's a lite version since I'll probably end up repeating most of what I said above if I were to really get into it.


1. Money Offered (Player Agents will work to keep salaries realistic, but it doesn't hurt to show you're committed)

2. Playing time.

5. The perceived effort you put into making an offer.

Largely the same through the process, both teams offered the max, both teams offered a starting role - fit has been discussed pretty well above so I don't think I need to go into that further, and both teams were very active through negotiations.

6. A player's perceived real-life personality traits.

Jrue has largely been a vanilla NBA player, hasn't really had many ways to show personality as he hasn't really entered the open market and has practically been with two teams his whole career. 

3. The chances of success with your team (playoff/championship calibre)

As addressed in the post above, Miami has the immediate better roster. Sure, Cleveland has picks, but they don't contribute to immediate roster strength. If that was the case, then NOP would be the clear leader here.

4. How much dedication you have shown to the player.

You could pretty much translate this as loyalty. It's really hard to assert dedication as an outside team, so the question I have to answer here is, did I think the Cavaliers deserve a home advantage? 

Jrue was traded to Cleveland mid-season, hasn't even been there for a full year. That's not exactly enough time to qualify as a significant advantage. Coupled with Cleveland's constant signing then trading of Free Agents - which were a league extreme by far, it's not exactly easy to take your words at face value. How were we to be sure that Jrue wasn't just going to be another player to be dealt in that vein?

This part was actually one of the major reasons I asked for a discussion. I felt that Cleveland was an extreme case in disloyalty, but wanted to make sure I wasn't the only one who thought so before acting on it. Turned out I wasn't.

[Hanamichi Sakuragi]

Jul 16, 2018 3:33:55 GMT Danny Longley said:

Edited top post, Ian Noble . Forgot to add the player option when I was correcting the max money.

Jul 16, 2018 0:38:09 GMT Hanamichi Sakuragi said:

1. Money Offered (Player Agents will work to keep salaries realistic, but it doesn't hurt to show you're committed)

2. Playing time.

3. The chances of success with your team (playoff/championship calibre)

4. How much dedication you have shown to the player.

5. The perceived effort you put into making an offer.

6. A player's perceived real-life personality traits.

PROVIDE US NUMBERS THAT SHOW THAT MIAMI WINS. 

I don't quite get what you mean, asking for numbers regarding factors that are largely subjective but if you want me to compare the Cavs and the Heat, then here's a lite version since I'll probably end up repeating most of what I said above if I were to really get into it.


1. Money Offered (Player Agents will work to keep salaries realistic, but it doesn't hurt to show you're committed)

2. Playing time.

5. The perceived effort you put into making an offer.

Largely the same through the process, both teams offered the max, both teams offered a starting role - fit has been discussed pretty well above so I don't think I need to go into that further, and both teams were very active through negotiations.

6. A player's perceived real-life personality traits.

Jrue has largely been a vanilla NBA player, hasn't really had many ways to show personality as he hasn't really entered the open market and has practically been with two teams his whole career. 

3. The chances of success with your team (playoff/championship calibre)

As addressed in the post above, Miami has the immediate better roster. Sure, Cleveland has picks, but they don't contribute to immediate roster strength. If that was the case, then NOP would be the clear leader here.

4. How much dedication you have shown to the player.

You could pretty much translate this as loyalty. It's really hard to assert dedication as an outside team, so the question I have to answer here is, did I think the Cavaliers deserve a home advantage? 

Jrue was traded to Cleveland mid-season, hasn't even been there for a full year. That's not exactly enough time to qualify as a significant advantage. Coupled with Cleveland's constant signing then trading of Free Agents - which were a league extreme by far, it's not exactly easy to take your words at face value. How were we to be sure that Jrue wasn't just going to be another player to be dealt in that vein?

This part was actually one of the major reasons I asked for a discussion. I felt that Cleveland was an extreme case in disloyalty, but wanted to make sure I wasn't the only one who thought so before acting on it. Turned out I wasn't.

For #3, why did you zoom into 1-2 seasons? Jrue is just entering his prime. He is not an old veteran dying to win a crown. So why? 

If you compare MIA and CLE five years from now, which will have a better team? 

For #4 Why did you not put any weight in the fact that I trade for him? I did not only trade for him, I gave up my biggest asset for him. We basically annointed him as one of our core in that trade. And that did not get any points?

He was traded all throughout the league because no one wanted to take the chance of entering the free-agency with him without BR. I accepted it and even traded a big asset for him. And that did not get any weight.

#5 better fit? NOP work very well when they played five-out basketball with Jrue and Davis in the center. We offered the modern-brand and we end up as a worse fit than Miami who has a traditional big? Or even a traditional frontline with the stache bro? We are worse fit for him than that?

There is one more that we want to ask Danny. If it boils down to those three, and if we provide 20 points as weight to each, kindly score MIA, CLE and NOP. We just want to see the visual of your decision.

Thank you. 

[Tom Izzo]

DeMarcus Cousins just signed with Golden State. LeBron went to LA without Paul George or Kawhi. Rondo and Lance Stephenson just signed with the same team as LeBron James.

Things happen in real life that none of us would ever predict. We do our best to simulate real life and be fair, but you're not going to like everything that's decided.

If you're going to quit because a player chose to leave your team after half a season when you could ship them out tomorrow then quit. Plenty of quality people are ready to take your spot.

Or stop crying and recognize that your style cost you a player and you lost on a gamble.

[Walt Frazier]

Jul 16, 2018 3:59:48 GMT Tom Izzo said:

DeMarcus Cousins just signed with Golden State. LeBron went to LA without Paul George or Kawhi. Rondo and Lance Stephenson just signed with the same team as LeBron James.

Things happen in real life that none of us would ever predict. We do our best to simulate real life and be fair, but you're not going to like everything that's decided.

If you're going to quit because a player chose to leave your team after half a season when you could ship them out tomorrow then quit. Plenty of quality people are ready to take your spot.

Or stop crying and recognize that your style cost you a player and you lost on a gamble.

Even if he agrees with everything you say here, Hanamichi isn't the type to go down without a fight.

[Shaquille O'Neal]

Here is the thing

First the superstars that i signed and traded were Mike Conley which i traded because he was out of season for dragic and Zach Randolph to be competitive and Dragic is really playing great irl

2nd is Wade, which has a huge contract of 35m. But once he was released we immediately offered him our MLE which he got and played for us once again.



I had threatened to quit because Jrue was actually leaning towards cleveland and he just traded another player in Cedi Osman

but after a few HOURS i APOLOGIZED TO Ian Noble FOR SAYING THOSE THINGS. He even commended me for that.

[Shaquille O'Neal]

Anyways. Welcome Jrue!! Let's go!!!

[Hanamichi Sakuragi]

I am not going down without a damn fight. I am not quitting. Danny answered back. And that was the thing that I asked for.

Yes, I agree that we should expect surprising decisions. But all decisions in real life came with reasons. Those professionals weigh things.

And that is what I am asking for. Show me how he weighed the factors.

The problem with the current system?

We usually zoom into one logic and try to build our decision around it. Instead of accepting all the factors and form a decision.

[Jeremiah Hill]

Can we talk about what it means to be active during negotiations? I try to send as few messages as possible because I was a PA and it was annoying as shit to have someone bugging you every hour. Is that hurting me? I don't think it should.

[Danny Longley]

Jul 16, 2018 3:58:52 GMT Hanamichi Sakuragi said:

For #3, why did you zoom into 1-2 seasons? Jrue is just entering his prime. He is not an old veteran dying to win a crown. So why? 

I didn't treat him like a veteran dying to win a ring. If I did, he'd be with the Warriors or Hornets for the minimum. It just so happened that when compared, one of the few glaring differences between the Heat and Cavs is the immediate level of talent.

Jul 16, 2018 3:58:52 GMT Hanamichi Sakuragi said:

If you compare MIA and CLE five years from now, which will have a better team? 

You're asking me to predict how the rosters of two serial traders will end up in 5 years. If I'm to be completely honest, I doubt any of your current players will still be on your rosters 5 years from now. That's also part of why it made sense to focus on the now. And again, if we considered it this way, then the Pelicans would again be the clear choice.

Jul 16, 2018 3:58:52 GMT Hanamichi Sakuragi said:

For #4 Why did you not put any weight in the fact that I trade for him? I did not only trade for him, I gave up my biggest asset for him. We basically annointed him as one of our core in that trade. And that did not get any points?

He was traded all throughout the league because no one wanted to take the chance of entering the free-agency with him without BR. I accepted it and even traded a big asset for him. And that did not get any weight.

Trading the pick was the cost of 1 year's service from Jrue and Willie Cauley-Stein. That's not a show of loyalty, that's just what he was worth at the time.

Jul 16, 2018 3:58:52 GMT Hanamichi Sakuragi said:

#5 better fit? NOP work very well when they played five-out basketball with Jrue and Davis in the center. We offered the modern-brand and we end up as a worse fit than Miami who has a traditional big? Or even a traditional frontline with the stache bro? We are worse fit for him than that?

I didn't consider the role you offered as a knock against the Cavaliers. I felt Jrue could function well as either a PG or an SG in either system, so I didn't really hold role against any team.

Jul 16, 2018 3:58:52 GMT Hanamichi Sakuragi said:

There is one more that we want to ask Danny. If it boils down to those three, and if we provide 20 points as weight to each, kindly score MIA, CLE and NOP. We just want to see the visual of your decision.

Again, you're asking me to quantify largely subjective factors.

[Danny Longley]

Jul 16, 2018 4:19:04 GMT Jeremiah Hill said:

Can we talk about what it means to be active during negotiations? I try to send as few messages as possible because I was a PA and it was annoying as shit to have someone bugging you every hour. Is that hurting me? I don't think it should.

Personally, so long as the messages have a clear thought, I'm fine with it. I don't really like having to answer messages every hour either.

It's more the opposite, when people start dragging on me that I take note. Not sure about the others though.

[Jeremiah Hill]

Hana got what he wanted a clear and concise explaination of factors considered. He won't leave.

[Hanamichi Sakuragi]

Jul 16, 2018 4:58:52 GMT Danny Longley said:

Jul 16, 2018 3:58:52 GMT Hanamichi Sakuragi said:

For #3, why did you zoom into 1-2 seasons? Jrue is just entering his prime. He is not an old veteran dying to win a crown. So why? 

I didn't treat him like a veteran dying to win a ring. If I did, he'd be with the Warriors or Hornets for the minimum. It just so happened that when compared, one of the few glaring differences between the Heat and Cavs is the immediate level of talent.

Jul 16, 2018 3:58:52 GMT Hanamichi Sakuragi said:

If you compare MIA and CLE five years from now, which will have a better team? 

You're asking me to predict how the rosters of two serial traders will end up in 5 years. If I'm to be completely honest, I doubt any of your current players will still be on your rosters 5 years from now. That's also part of why it made sense to focus on the now. And again, if we considered it this way, then the Pelicans would again be the clear choice.

Jul 16, 2018 3:58:52 GMT Hanamichi Sakuragi said:

For #4 Why did you not put any weight in the fact that I trade for him? I did not only trade for him, I gave up my biggest asset for him. We basically annointed him as one of our core in that trade. And that did not get any points?

He was traded all throughout the league because no one wanted to take the chance of entering the free-agency with him without BR. I accepted it and even traded a big asset for him. And that did not get any weight.

Trading the pick was the cost of 1 year's service from Jrue and Willie Cauley-Stein. That's not a show of loyalty, that's just what he was worth at the time.

Jul 16, 2018 3:58:52 GMT Hanamichi Sakuragi said:

#5 better fit? NOP work very well when they played five-out basketball with Jrue and Davis in the center. We offered the modern-brand and we end up as a worse fit than Miami who has a traditional big? Or even a traditional frontline with the stache bro? We are worse fit for him than that?

I didn't consider the role you offered as a knock against the Cavaliers. I felt Jrue could function well as either a PG or an SG in either system, so I didn't really hold role against any team.

Jul 16, 2018 3:58:52 GMT Hanamichi Sakuragi said:

There is one more that we want to ask Danny. If it boils down to those three, and if we provide 20 points as weight to each, kindly score MIA, CLE and NOP. We just want to see the visual of your decision.

Again, you're asking me to quantify largely subjective factors.

#3 you really did not consider it. You basically assumed that I will trade everyone of my players today just so you can conclude that that factor doesn't hold value. If we do not trade anyone, which team is better? The decision to just focus on 1-2 years contending window is subjective, but what is the reason behind? 

#4 I gave up a huge value to get him and yet Jrue did not appreciate it. That is sad. 

#5 Thanks. But how about the fact that we have a team that can provide him better space to operate? 

I hope everyone can see what I am trying to point out.

It boils down to three factors and it seems like I got #5, #4 boils down to not giving any value to a half year with him and the fact that I gave up great value to get him. So #4 is a time because of that. 

And #3? The focus was 1-2 years when he could have focused on a much wider span like 5 years.

I think, I get a little bit of the upperhand, right? 

I hope 1 day, D5 can have a better system. A system that looks at the factors first and then sums it up to come out with a decision. 

If we keep on putting the "subjective  factors...etc." as a defense, then we are simply saying that "you need to accept the opinion of the PA/s because his opinion is the only thing that matter."

Is that fair?

By putting scores in the factors, we can at least visualize the decision process. By not doing so, biases will contort people into believing that they made the right decision. Why? Because we are humans with our own way of beliefs and principles and we zoom in to things that we believe hold value. We then neglect the other factors that should also be considered.

Thanks for the time and effort Danny.

I doubt anyone will listen to someone that doesn't conform to the general idea of team-building. But at least, I tried.

Thanks

[Jeremiah Hill]

I said this in my message to Hana but I'll say it again here. It's gonna be funny watching Troy pay 2 past the prime point guards 60 million.