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Post by Andrei Kirilenko on Nov 18, 2012 21:48:46 GMT
Current rating: 78 Suggested Rating: 84
Last Season:
15.4 ppg, 10 rpg, 1.5 bpg, 55.5% shooting
Some facts:
- Only 4 centers (Al Jefferson, Andrew Bynum, DeMarcus Cousins, Chris Bosh) scored more ppg than Gortat last season (Dwight didn't qualify for scoring stats for some reason)
- Of those 4 centers, only Andrew Bynum shot a higher fg% at 55.7%. The next highest was Al Jefferson at Jefferson at 49.2% (huge difference)
- Only 3 centers (Howard, Bynum, Cousins) had more rebounds per game than Gortat
- 10th among centers in steals per game - 10th among centers in blocks per game
Discussion: Gortat is one of the premier centers in the league. He is only 28 years old and has steadily improved every year. Even early in this season, while his points are slightly down due to the presence of Luis Scola, he has increased his blocks to 3 bpg and maintained his rebounding level.
In all honesty, every single big man in this league needs to be reassessed. To steal from the Tiago Splitter thread, here are some similarly rated players:
79 Kenyon Martin 79 Tyrus Thomas 79 Glen Davis 78 Brandon Bass 78 Bismack Biyombo 78 Channing Frye 78 Taj Gibson 78 Carl Landry 77 Kris Humphries 77 Anthony Randolph 77 Jason Maxiell 77 Charlie Villanueva 77 Markieff Morris 77 Dejuan Blair 76 Marreese Speights 76 Drew Gooden 76 Derrick Favors 76 Udonis Haslem 76 Amir Johnson 76 Tristan Thompson 76 Andris Biedrins 75 Nick Collison 75 Jason Smith 75 Jason Thompson 75 Hakim Warrick
I don't think there is much of an argument that Gortat is at a different level than every person on that list, and his rating should be indicative of that.
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Post by Alex English on Nov 18, 2012 22:39:28 GMT
I completely agree Gortat needs an increase and I'm a huge fan of him, but he has been a little worse this season without Nash feeding him pick-n-roll layups. His FG% has dropped from 56% to 51% and his PPG from 15.4 to 11. Though 11 games isn't much of a sample size yet.
I'd give him an 82 maybe an 83. I'll definitely be paying close attention to this thread though because if Gortat is an 84 then Al Jeff has gotta be about an 88.
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Post by Walt Frazier on Nov 19, 2012 1:56:04 GMT
I'm more or less with Denver here. Gortat should break 80 for sure. I'd be comfortable around an 82.
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Glenn Robinson
Milwaukee Bucks
Starter
Posts: 1,226
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Post by Glenn Robinson on Nov 19, 2012 2:06:39 GMT
Al Jefferson is not an 88. He's having a pretty good year but I would be shocked to see him get an 88.
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Post by Ian Noble on Nov 19, 2012 19:46:02 GMT
Woah, really? Gortat, in my opinion, is totally NOT on a different level than the guys on that list. 84 surely puts him on par with historically memorable centers like Brad Daugherty, Vlade Divac, Arvydas Sabonis. In the old D5, Yao Ming was an 87, to give some perspective. Tyson Chandler, real-life DPOY, is currently an 82.
The Suns last season had nobody outside Steve Nash who could catch a ball and Gortat benefited with some inflated stats. Now he's got Scola and Beasley to contend with he's back to his slightly-above-average ways.
11ppg / 9.8rpg does not equal 84 imho.
He should be higher than 78, but not higher than 80 imho.
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Post by Andrei Kirilenko on Nov 19, 2012 22:57:25 GMT
Woah, really? Gortat, in my opinion, is totally NOT on a different level than the guys on that list. 84 surely puts him on par with historically memorable centers like Brad Daugherty, Vlade Divac, Arvydas Sabonis. In the old D5, Yao Ming was an 87, to give some perspective. Tyson Chandler, real-life DPOY, is currently an 82. The Suns last season had nobody outside Steve Nash who could catch a ball and Gortat benefited with some inflated stats. Now he's got Scola and Beasley to contend with he's back to his slightly-above-average ways. 11ppg / 9.8rpg does not equal 84 imho. He should be higher than 78, but not higher than 80 imho. Tyson Chandler: 9.5 ppg, 7.9 rpg, 0.6 bpg Marcin Gortat: 11 ppg, 9.8 rpg, 3.0 bpg
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Post by Ian Noble on Nov 19, 2012 23:03:33 GMT
Hmm, I have not paid attention to Gortat's blocking stats, that's impressive even if it will probably go down throughout the season. He's better than I thought. I still think 84 is getting carried away though
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Post by Alex English on Nov 19, 2012 23:55:33 GMT
I'm not sure what the big deal is about Tyson Chandler. The guy is good and all but he never even should have won that DPOY. If Dwight wasn't preoccupied with burning every bridge in the city of Orlando he would have won it again like he should have.
But yea like Josh showed, if you go by stats and Tyson is an 82 then why isn't Gortat an 84? That said I still think he is only about an 82.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Nov 20, 2012 1:02:14 GMT
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Otis Smith
Former Rockets GM
Sophomore
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Dec 24, 2013 6:32:46 GMT
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Post by Otis Smith on Nov 20, 2012 2:14:54 GMT
Woah, really? Gortat, in my opinion, is totally NOT on a different level than the guys on that list. 84 surely puts him on par with historically memorable centers like Brad Daugherty, Vlade Divac, Arvydas Sabonis. In the old D5, Yao Ming was an 87, to give some perspective. Tyson Chandler, real-life DPOY, is currently an 82. The Suns last season had nobody outside Steve Nash who could catch a ball and Gortat benefited with some inflated stats. Now he's got Scola and Beasley to contend with he's back to his slightly-above-average ways. 11ppg / 9.8rpg does not equal 84 imho. He should be higher than 78, but not higher than 80 imho. Tyson Chandler: 9.5 ppg, 7.9 rpg, 0.6 bpg Marcin Gortat: 11 ppg, 9.8 rpg, 3.0 bpg Looking at box score stats does really nothing to be honest and should not be a factor in rating increases or decreases. Blocks are also a really bad indicator for defence and at times it could mean a player leaves their man much too often/is extremely aggressive (see Ibaka). Well first when you look at per36 raw box scores (because Gortat plays about 5 more minutes per game then Chandler this year): Gortat - 11.9 pts, 10.7 rbs, 3.3 blks, 51% fg, 70.8% ft. Chandler - 12.1 pts, 10 rbs, 0.8 blks, 59 % fg, 75% ft. With more touches and minutes played is about 4 points less per game and about 6 points less per36, his fg% has also plummented now that nash isn't there to get him easy looks. The biggest difference this year is that Chandler has been so much more useful for his team than Gortat has been. Chandler's Ortg/Drtg is 130/100, thats insane for any player, and Gortat's is 109/105. This isn't a anomaly due to a small sample size, the last two years Chandler's splits (for Ortg and Drtg) has been 131/102 (last year with the mavs and 130/99 (last year with the knicks). Chandler changes shots in the paint just as much as players like Gortat and Ibaka but the difference is that he has a better command over knowing when to rotate/ when to stay. The only thing Gortat is better than Chandler is with rebounding (a 24% DRB rate) but nothing much else. EDIT: Sources www.basketball-reference.com/players/c/chandty01.htmlwww.basketball-reference.com/players/g/gortama01.html
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Post by Alex English on Nov 20, 2012 3:49:16 GMT
Tyson Chandler: 9.5 ppg, 7.9 rpg, 0.6 bpg Marcin Gortat: 11 ppg, 9.8 rpg, 3.0 bpg Looking at box score stats does really nothing to be honest and should not be a factor in rating increases or decreases. Blocks are also a really bad indicator for defence and at times it could mean a player leaves their man much too often/is extremely aggressive (see Ibaka). Well first when you look at per36 raw box scores (because Gortat plays about 5 more minutes per game then Chandler this year): Gortat - 11.9 pts, 10.7 rbs, 3.3 blks, 51% fg, 70.8% ft. Chandler - 12.1 pts, 10 rbs, 0.8 blks, 59 % fg, 75% ft. With more touches and minutes played is about 4 points less per game and about 6 points less per36, his fg% has also plummented now that nash isn't there to get him easy looks. The biggest difference this year is that Chandler has been so much more useful for his team than Gortat has been. Chandler's Ortg/Drtg is 130/100, thats insane for any player, and Gortat's is 109/105. This isn't a anomaly due to a small sample size, the last two years Chandler's splits (for Ortg and Drtg) has been 131/102 (last year with the mavs and 130/99 (last year with the knicks). Chandler changes shots in the paint just as much as players like Gortat and Ibaka but the difference is that he has a better command over knowing when to rotate/ when to stay. The only thing Gortat is better than Chandler is with rebounding (a 24% DRB rate) but nothing much else. EDIT: Sources www.basketball-reference.com/players/c/chandty01.htmlwww.basketball-reference.com/players/g/gortama01.htmlThe problem though is what Chandler does can't be translated into the game. There just aren't ratings for what he does. The closest thing would be defensive and offensive awareness but having those ratings really high won't do much for his overall. He is like the post player equivalent of Shane Battier and Tony Allen. They aren't particularly good at anything that shows up on a boxscore. In the context of this game Gortat is much better than Chandler even if that isn't the case in real life.
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Otis Smith
Former Rockets GM
Sophomore
Posts: 280
Dec 24, 2013 6:32:46 GMT
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Post by Otis Smith on Nov 20, 2012 6:33:02 GMT
Looking at box score stats does really nothing to be honest and should not be a factor in rating increases or decreases. Blocks are also a really bad indicator for defence and at times it could mean a player leaves their man much too often/is extremely aggressive (see Ibaka). Well first when you look at per36 raw box scores (because Gortat plays about 5 more minutes per game then Chandler this year): Gortat - 11.9 pts, 10.7 rbs, 3.3 blks, 51% fg, 70.8% ft. Chandler - 12.1 pts, 10 rbs, 0.8 blks, 59 % fg, 75% ft. With more touches and minutes played is about 4 points less per game and about 6 points less per36, his fg% has also plummented now that nash isn't there to get him easy looks. The biggest difference this year is that Chandler has been so much more useful for his team than Gortat has been. Chandler's Ortg/Drtg is 130/100, thats insane for any player, and Gortat's is 109/105. This isn't a anomaly due to a small sample size, the last two years Chandler's splits (for Ortg and Drtg) has been 131/102 (last year with the mavs and 130/99 (last year with the knicks). Chandler changes shots in the paint just as much as players like Gortat and Ibaka but the difference is that he has a better command over knowing when to rotate/ when to stay. The only thing Gortat is better than Chandler is with rebounding (a 24% DRB rate) but nothing much else. EDIT: Sources www.basketball-reference.com/players/c/chandty01.htmlwww.basketball-reference.com/players/g/gortama01.htmlThe problem though is what Chandler does can't be translated into the game. There just aren't ratings for what he does. The closest thing would be defensive and offensive awareness but having those ratings really high won't do much for his overall. He is like the post player equivalent of Shane Battier and Tony Allen. They aren't particularly good at anything that shows up on a boxscore. In the context of this game Gortat is much better than Chandler even if that isn't the case in real life. It can be easily be translated into the rating systems. Put his awareness (both off and def) to 90+, his post defence 90+, blocking 80, rebounding 80/80 (he is a good offensive rebounder usually), his hands to 90, inside to 80, close to 90, and hustle to 90+. Both 2k and live have a lot of attributes that help bring out the tangibles that players like Garnett and Chandler bring to their teams.
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Post by Alex English on Nov 20, 2012 7:27:54 GMT
The problem though is what Chandler does can't be translated into the game. There just aren't ratings for what he does. The closest thing would be defensive and offensive awareness but having those ratings really high won't do much for his overall. He is like the post player equivalent of Shane Battier and Tony Allen. They aren't particularly good at anything that shows up on a boxscore. In the context of this game Gortat is much better than Chandler even if that isn't the case in real life. It can be easily be translated into the rating systems. Put his awareness (both off and def) to 90+, his post defence 90+, blocking 80, rebounding 80/80 (he is a good offensive rebounder usually), his hands to 90, inside to 80, close to 90, and hustle to 90+. Both 2k and live have a lot of attributes that help bring out the tangibles that players like Garnett and Chandler bring to their teams. You should take a gander at our ratings: dynasty5ive.proboards.com/index.cgi?board=fullplayerratingsPost defense, hands, close and hustle don't exist.
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Otis Smith
Former Rockets GM
Sophomore
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Dec 24, 2013 6:32:46 GMT
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Post by Otis Smith on Nov 20, 2012 8:38:09 GMT
It can be easily be translated into the rating systems. Put his awareness (both off and def) to 90+, his post defence 90+, blocking 80, rebounding 80/80 (he is a good offensive rebounder usually), his hands to 90, inside to 80, close to 90, and hustle to 90+. Both 2k and live have a lot of attributes that help bring out the tangibles that players like Garnett and Chandler bring to their teams. You should take a gander at our ratings: dynasty5ive.proboards.com/index.cgi?board=fullplayerratingsPost defense, hands, close and hustle don't exist. That definitely limits the choices but still the rest of my post still is relevant. Awareness, strength, inside, and dunk could be maximized for someone like Chandler.
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Post by Ian Noble on Nov 24, 2012 14:57:32 GMT
Gortat so far:
UTA: 84 DEN: 82 MIN: 82 BOS: 81 SAS: ?
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Nov 24, 2012 15:29:10 GMT
Gortat so far: UTA: 84 DEN: 82 MIN: 82 BOS: 81 SAS: ? I agree with Minny about most things but I gotta go with Boston on this one!(81)
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Nov 24, 2012 15:32:14 GMT
Hey Rockets, don't talk shit about Ibaka! He deserves a rating increase because, like Chandler and Dwight, he ALTERS the shots of players on the other team to an extreme degree. In a league where everyone can jump out of the gym, that is a very desired skill.
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Post by Walt Frazier on Nov 24, 2012 15:48:33 GMT
Gortat so far: UTA: 84 DEN: 82 MIN: 82 BOS: 81 SAS: ? I agree with Minny about most things but I gotta go with Boston on this one!(81) LOL, 1 point one way or the other is not a big deal. His overall jump is pretty big, and he's deserved it.
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Magic Johnson
Former Lakers GM
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Post by Magic Johnson on Nov 24, 2012 17:39:23 GMT
81 is fair for him.
he doesn't really stand out at anything, he is just good at everything but not ELITE or great at anything.
the whole jack of all traits master of none.
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JP Inawat
Former Suns GM
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Post by JP Inawat on Nov 24, 2012 17:59:11 GMT
I think 82 would be fair.
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Post by Dominique Wilkins on Nov 24, 2012 18:10:25 GMT
Agreed that 82 is a fair rating for him!
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Lucas Lutkus
Former Bobcats GM
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Post by Lucas Lutkus on Nov 25, 2012 6:43:53 GMT
81
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Post by Danny Longley on Nov 27, 2012 13:47:04 GMT
82, as said above by Magic, above average at just about everything, not elite in any way though.
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Glenn Robinson
Milwaukee Bucks
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Post by Glenn Robinson on Nov 27, 2012 13:50:19 GMT
81
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Otis Smith
Former Rockets GM
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Post by Otis Smith on Nov 28, 2012 22:49:12 GMT
Gortat so far: UTA: 84 DEN: 82 MIN: 82 BOS: 81 SAS: ? I would say 78.
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Post by Clyde Drexler on Nov 29, 2012 13:12:30 GMT
I haven't really been one to discuss the ratings, but I'll jump right in. With Nash gone his scoring has dropped a bit, but I think Gortat deserves around an 81.
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Otis Smith
Former Rockets GM
Sophomore
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Post by Otis Smith on Nov 30, 2012 6:09:34 GMT
Hey Rockets, don't talk shit about Ibaka! He deserves a rating increase because, like Chandler and Dwight, he ALTERS the shots of players on the other team to an extreme degree. In a league where everyone can jump out of the gym, that is a very desired skill. I was being semi-serious in my other post. I felt like he has actually improved from last year (where he was extremely overrated on defence) and his offence game is looking a lot better. In a couple of years when he improves on his defensive positioning, defensive awareness, and his face-up game he will become a true star.
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Post by Dominique Wilkins on Dec 2, 2012 17:50:47 GMT
81-82
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Dec 3, 2012 0:21:32 GMT
80.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Dec 9, 2012 6:55:13 GMT
STATS PPG FG% APG RPG BLKPG STLPG 2012-13 11.3 .522 1.2 8.2 2.05 0.75 Career 8.3 .552 0.6 6.6 1.12 0.43
I didn't realize that he wasn't playing well so far
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