Kevin Love

[Brian Scalabrine]

Current rating: 88

Suggested rating: 84

I just don't see how a complete 0 on defense (maybe even a negative) can be rated so high when his post game is now below average and most of his skills revolve around shooting and passing. He's unathletic (not saying that because he's white, he's actually pretty slow and has a limited vertical) and really only plays one side of the ball, in a much more limited fashion than he did in Minnasota.

I don't think this is a function of his role in Cleveland like with Bosh in MIA but rather that he has cut weight which has limited his overall effectiveness.

An 84 rating puts him in the range of Dwight Howard, Serge Ibaka, KAT, Whiteside which seems more than generous to me.

[Jared Montini]

83. Taking the 3rd option in Cleveland had an affect on him. He can't play defense, Can't post up and isn't as strong as he used to be. He's a glorified Ryan Anderson

[Ian Noble]

I feel like, for the same reason we didn't drop Chris Bosh in Miami, we should go a bit easier on KLove.

86

[Brian Scalabrine]

Jun 13, 2017 15:21:29 GMT Ian Noble said:

I feel like, for the same reason we didn't drop Chris Bosh in Miami, we should go a bit easier on KLove.

86

The difference was Bosh played defense even when he wasn't scoring. Love is only valuable on Offense

[Vlade Divac]

Sigh, Love played better in the finals than I have ever seen him play. There is NO WAY he is an 88, but I could go 84.

[Jeremiah Hill]

Jun 13, 2017 16:19:56 GMT Brian Scalabrine said:

Jun 13, 2017 15:21:29 GMT Ian Noble said:

I feel like, for the same reason we didn't drop Chris Bosh in Miami, we should go a bit easier on KLove.

86

The difference was Bosh played defense even when he wasn't scoring. Love is only valuable on Offense

I mean Love did drop a 21 rebound game. The Cavs missed in total about 500 wide open back cuts for dunks/layups. Most of the time it was LBJ or Kyrie's assignment. Tristan getting in the way of other defenders during transition defense that allowed for several easy Curry 3s. Not a lot Love could do about that. NEWS FLASH, the Warriors weren't small this year. They guarded Love with legit bigs a lot of the time and he still managed to do OK. 

I thought that Kevin Love was a better player this season than last. Looking at the stats on the season he was better in every FG/FT% category, better point total, better rebound total. The only thing that was a bit worse was passing and blocking. Nothing that says he's gotten significantly worse. 

If they keep Kevin Love then he'll be even better with the team next year. If they trade him, this change thread will have been pointless cause we gotta raise him up again. 

[Jeremiah Hill]

I also like how we are judging a player specifically how they play against the most stacked team in the history of the NBA. You guys are all ridiculous. You can tell based on your votes you didn't even compare the stats to last season.

[James Kay]

Here's a comparison of Bosh from 2010-2011 through 2013-2014 and Love from 2014-2015 through 2016-2017, to compare players with similar games in similar situations, ie, being the stretch big for a Lebron drive-and-kick type team.


Chris Bosh during the 4 Lebron Miami years:

17.3 points, 7.4 rebounds, 1.6 assists, .9 steals, 1.0 blocks, 1.8 turnovers

50.9/31.5/81.3

PER of 19.4

TS 57.8%

WS/48 .168

Per 100: 113-103

Kevin Love during the 3 Lebron Return to Cleveland years:

17.0 points, 10.2 rebounds, 2.2 assists, .8 steals, .5 blocks, 1.8 turnovers

42.6/36.6/83.1

PER of 19.6

TS% 56.2

WS/48 .166

Per 100: 113-104

Conclusions: I went into this a little biased because I love Chris Bosh and thought he was a much better defensive player than Love during his time in Miami with Lebron. However, despite having 1.9 'stocks' to Love's 1.3 'stocks,' the advanced stats imply that they're rather even in terms of efficiency and impact on both sides of the floor. However, one stat did pop out that I think speaks to the big difference between these two players:

Bosh FG% under the basket: (0-3) 71.1%

Love FG% under the basket: (0-3) 57.6%

Bosh was simply more athletic than Love, and it showed in the paint - on offense and on defense. He was able to rack up more steals and blocks, and have a very slight edge in DRtng. However, Love has much better range than Bosh (obviously), and is therefore able to maintain nearly the same efficiency. As Jared mentioned, he is basically a glorified Ryan Anderson at this point (albeit with much better rebounding and moderately better defense), but I think that's Lue's problem more than Love's. He's been restricted to that role but I don't believe that role is the extent of his talents.

I'm going to go with an 86.

[Brian Scalabrine]

Jun 13, 2017 17:17:52 GMT Jeremiah Hill said:

I also like how we are judging a player specifically how they play against the most stacked team in the history of the NBA. You guys are all ridiculous. You can tell based on your votes you didn't even compare the stats to last season.

This  false. love actually played very well in the Finals for the Cavs. I'm not taking that into account at all when advocating for this rating change.

2016-17 stats:

18 ppg  11 rpg  2.4 apg

37.3 3p%

42.7 FG%

50 EFG%

So what I see here is that he's a good offensive player who is efficient shooting the ball and is a pretty good rebounder.

However, his post game has declined considerably IMO and his rating should be lowered to reflect that.

His defense is terrible, not just against the warriors but against any pick and roll heavy team. He doesn't have the footspeed to keep up with quicker guards. He also doesn't have the athleticism or length to protect the rim.

In other words Love is completely useless on the defensiveend.

I think an 84 rating is more than enough to reflect his good rebounding and shooting qualities while allowing for decreases in his defense and post game.

I never thought Love should've been an 88 to begin with, so comparing his stats to last season is irrelevant to me.

If you disagree with my points fine but I'm making a legitimate case based on his entire season not just 1 series.

[Brian Scalabrine]

James Kay I agree with most of your points but I don't think you accounted for the difference in Bosh's defense compared to Love's enough.

Bosh was a legit difference maker on that end who could move quickly, contain penetration and protect the rim.

At best Love is a 0, at worst he is an extreme liability.

[James Kay]

Jun 13, 2017 17:31:48 GMT Brian Scalabrine said:

James Kay I agree with most of your points but I don't think you accounted for the difference in Bosh's defense compared to Love's enough.

Bosh was a legit difference maker on that end who could move quickly, contain penetration and protect the rim.

At best Love is a 0, at worst he is an extreme liability.

Well then I'll go 86 but a team without a legit rim protector AND playing Kevin Love should be worse defensively than the Cavs are which is why I think Love isn't an extreme liability.

[Alex English]

87.

His D Awareness rating has already been lowered to a 51. That's one of the worst ratings in the league. There is not a lot of room for a decrease there, and there is nowhere else to account for his shitty defense. The way the ratings are defense is a disproportionately small amount of a player's overall.

Love is still one of the best stretch PFs in the NBA. He had his best season in Cleveland this year putting up 19 and 11 despite being a third option offensively. He can shoot, he can rebound and he's athletic for a post player. That's sucking up a lot of rating points. I'm not sure where you guys propose we give him this decrease.

[Charles Barkley]

You're not looking at this from a rating points perspective Brian.

You're looking at this from a stats perspective.

But let's just overreact to everything, because why not?

Look at his ratings, and then come back in here and tell me where to take the 56 points from, and be sure to then look at his stats in relation to the rest of the players in the league.

The stock watch is overrun with idiots like you who don't pay attention to the things mentioned above.

88

[Shaquille O'Neal]

Here we go again. Why do we judge a player based in one series? what about the way he played during the whole season were his numbers where up?

[Walt Frazier]

I'm on the James/Alex/Charles (even though Charles doesn't count, just look at his signature...) train here. Love is already a bad defender in our game. Maybe his rebounding could come down slightly (maybe?) and maybe his post game should be adjusted, but my gut says he is probably a little low somewhere else where those points could just be shifted around.

I'll go 87.

[Brian Scalabrine]

Jun 13, 2017 18:35:12 GMT Charles Barkley said:

The stock watch is overrun with idiots like you who don't pay attention to the things mentioned above.

Unnecessary

[Jeremiah Hill]

Jun 13, 2017 17:29:03 GMT Brian Scalabrine said:

Jun 13, 2017 17:17:52 GMT Jeremiah Hill said:

I also like how we are judging a player specifically how they play against the most stacked team in the history of the NBA. You guys are all ridiculous. You can tell based on your votes you didn't even compare the stats to last season.

This  false. love actually played very well in the Finals for the Cavs. I'm not taking that into account at all when advocating for this rating change.

2016-17 stats:

18 ppg  11 rpg  2.4 apg

37.3 3p%

42.7 FG%

50 EFG%

So what I see here is that he's a good offensive player who is efficient shooting the ball and is a pretty good rebounder.

However, his post game has declined considerably IMO and his rating should be lowered to reflect that.

His defense is terrible, not just against the warriors but against any pick and roll heavy team. He doesn't have the footspeed to keep up with quicker guards. He also doesn't have the athleticism or length to protect the rim.

In other words Love is completely useless on the defensiveend.

I think an 84 rating is more than enough to reflect his good rebounding and shooting qualities while allowing for decreases in his defense and post game.

I never thought Love should've been an 88 to begin with, so comparing his stats to last season is irrelevant to me.

If you disagree with my points fine but I'm making a legitimate case based on his entire season not just 1 series.

I'm pretty sure that if his defense isn't already below average-bad then the ratings committee should be fired. Not even the most ardent Love defender claims he's a good defender. 

I don't see a problem with maybe lowering his inside stats a smidge. 

[Kevin Hollis]

88

[Deleted]

Take points out of being good

84

[Jeremiah Hill]

87

[Shane Battier]

87

[Walt Frazier]

Jun 14, 2017 0:02:00 GMT @riogho said:

Take points out of being good

84

Can we get this guy fired from the RC with input like this? :-p

[Vlade Divac]

Jun 14, 2017 1:49:35 GMT Walt Frazier said:

Jun 14, 2017 0:02:00 GMT @riogho said:

Take points out of being good

84

Can we get this guy fired from the RC with input like this? :-p

I think we should fire you since you cannot handle the truth.

[Charles Barkley]

Jun 13, 2017 20:31:32 GMT Brian Scalabrine said:

Jun 13, 2017 18:35:12 GMT Charles Barkley said:

The stock watch is overrun with idiots like you who don't pay attention to the things mentioned above.

Unnecessary

Its totally necessary. 

Your opinion, along with others, skew every vote we have in here. There's nothing regulating what everyone should take into consideration in making votes. I can vote whatever I like on a player and rarely need to explain myself on anything. 

19 and 11, with half a block on 37.5% shooting is good for a first option on a team. HE IS THE THIRD OPTION CONSISTENTLY OUT OF RHYTHM IN THE OFFENSE. 

Is he bad on defense? Yes. And it is accounted for and reflected in his ratings. 

Tell me another big man in the league who can post up, shoot the three above average on 4+ attempts a game, average more than 10 rebounds, and pass very well?

NO ONE IN THE LEAGUE. The closest is KAT and he was a percentage point off verses Love's three point percentage.

Not Ibaka. Not Horford. Not Aldridge. Not Millsap. Not everyone's boyfriend Anthony Davis. Not Blake. Not Marc Gasol. 

So you idiots want to lower Love, go ahead, because that's your vote, and that's on you to make an informed choice. But doing so will have a domino effect on the rest of the league.

[Walt Frazier]

Jun 14, 2017 2:02:32 GMT Vlade Divac said:

Jun 14, 2017 1:49:35 GMT Walt Frazier said:

Can we get this guy fired from the RC with input like this? :-p

I think we should fire you since you cannot handle the truth.

I'm not talking about his rating. I'm talking about his input "take points out of being good" being the least useful thing ever. :-p

[Charles Barkley]

I'm gonna wear a cape for this, I will wear one all day for this.

ESPN, for the better part of two years, has CONSTANTLY told you that Kevin Love is bad at basketball. Why? Because they have nothing better to do with their lives and need a story. 


Kevin Love just had one of the best seasons in his career given his usage rate and his averages. During his time in Minnesota, Kevin Love had a usage rate of 28.9%, and, this past season in Cleveland, his usage rate was 26.4%. This means that in Minnesota, he was "used" 2.5% more of the time, which is a lot over the course of a season. Kyrie's is 31.1% and LeBron's is an even 30.0%. 

In Minnesota, Love attempted 505 three's his last season, regarded as his best season in Minnesota. He shot 389 three's this season in Cleveland, in 17 less games. The difference is 116 three's, which is not enough to explain the games played gap, unless he is attempting 10 a game, which he is not. In Cleveland, he attempted 14.5 shots per game this season, and 18.5 his last season in Minnesota. His scoring fell 7.1 PPG, from 26.1 in Minny to 19.0 in Cleveland. His rebounds fell by 1.4 per game, from 12.5 RPG in Minny to 11.1 in Cleveland. 

Kevin Love is CONSISTENTLY made out to be the scapegoat for the Cavaliers. Why? Because everyone needs someone to blame. No one wants to talk about how the Cavs have a bench that consists of players solely one dimensional while the GSW have a multi-talented player occupying each bench spot -- Livingston has midrage, defense, passing, Iggy can do a lot of things good including defense and passing. The Cavs? Shumpert can play defense, asking him to shoot is not a good idea, whereas you'd be ok with Iggy taking a three or a lay-up. Korver can only shoot. Derron Williams is a pile of steaming shit. Yet, the media and everyone in the world wants to talk about trading Kevin Love. 

In a league obsessed with the three point shot, it is a huge advantage if you can put a good three point shooter in to a position usually occupied by a player who cannot usually shoot the three. Kevin Love shoots the three at an above average rate for a big. And he rebounds at an elite level in a league where longer shots are creating longer rebounds, thus dispersing the typical rebounds reserved for big men to the guards. 

People everywhere will talk about him and how he "didn't show up" for an elimination game. But they won't talk about the 20 rebound performance, or the two great performances he had in the series. They won't talk about the Celtics series. They'll just talk about trading Kevin Love. 

So let's trade him. Does Melo seriously make the Cavs better? You're high if you think so. Sure guys like Anthony Davis make them better. But no one is trading Davis, no one is trading PG or Butler to the Cavs. 

Speaking only regarding power forwards, LMA, Blake, Ibaka, Gasol, Millsap, Horford, all rated roughly around Love, here is how Love stacks up in PTS, REB, 3P%, 3PA/ BLKS

LMA: 17.3/7.3/41.1%/0.8/1.2, So LMA doesn't score as many points even though he is the second option on the Spurs, doesn't rebound as well, shoots a higher percentage on the three ball but doesn't even shoot a three a game. AND HE TOTALLY SHIT THE BED IN THE PLAYOFFS BUT NO ONE TALKS ABOUT THIS. LMA is an 89.

Blake: 21.6/8.1/33.6%/1.9/0.4, So Blake scores better, doesn't rebound as well, nor shoot the three on much less attempts per game. Blake also gets 0.4 Blocks per game, the same as Love. Blake is an 89. But you idiots say Love is an 83-84, and Blake is an 89? I suppose its 80 points in athleticism? Or some shit? Show the math.

Ibaka: 14.8/6.8/39.1%/4.0/1.6. Ibaka is MUCH short in Points and Boards, but edges Love out in Three's and Blocks. Ibaka is an 85. 

Marc Gasol: 19.5/6.3/38.8%/3.6/1.3, Marc Gasol is MUCH short in rebounding, Marc is an 87 and the number 1B option on the Grizzlies.

Millsap: 18.1/7.7/31.1%/3.5/0.9, Paul Millsap falls short in Rebounding and 3's.  Millsap is also an 87 and the top option on the Hawks

Horford: 14.0/6.8/35.5%/3.6/1.3, Horford, a second option, is an 86. Love beats him in EVERYTHING talked about but Blocks.

LOVE: 19.0/11.1/37.3/6.5/0.4, Love AVERAGES a DOUBLE DOUBLE the only player of these to actually do so, take 2.5 more three's per game than Ibaka, and shoots better than most mentioned here. 


Is Love as good as these players? Yes. What he lacks in defense, he more than makes up for in everything else. 

You're asking to drop him 56 rating points. You can't put it all on defense, that has to come out somewhere, and there isn't anywhere to take it. 

[Charles Barkley]

This whole stock watch idea is fucked up.

We talk all about how Trump got elected because of idiots, yet we are blind to it in our own democratic rating system that has zero accountability.

[Deleted]

Jun 14, 2017 1:49:35 GMT Walt Frazier said:

Jun 14, 2017 0:02:00 GMT @riogho said:

Take points out of being good

84

Can we get this guy fired from the RC with input like this? :-p

I already got my input in on Whiteside, it's all I wanted. Fire away, friend.

[Vlade Divac]

Jun 14, 2017 2:52:58 GMT Charles Barkley said:

ESPN [your eyes], for the better part of two years, has CONSTANTLY told you that Kevin Love is bad at basketball.

You are such an attorney! I changed your sentence to reflect reality; if you think I listen to ESPN about anything then you are badly mistaken. #fakenews

[Charles Barkley]

Jun 14, 2017 4:49:51 GMT Vlade Divac said:

Jun 14, 2017 2:52:58 GMT Charles Barkley said:

ESPN [your eyes], for the better part of two years, has CONSTANTLY told you that Kevin Love is bad at basketball.

You are such an attorney! I changed your sentence to reflect reality; if you think I listen to ESPN about anything then you are badly mistaken. #fakenews

ok but the numbers I read with my eyes tell me otherwise. and they would tell you the same if you could understand what they mean and weren't such a biased clown