Rudy Gobert

[Hanamichi Sakuragi]

Current: 74

Numbers: 8.4 pts, 9.5 rebs, 2.3 blks, 60.4% FG

DWS: 4.3 DBPM: 5.1


I do not know how conservative you are but those numbers does not lie so let us give this defensive dynamo the rating that he deserves, IMO.


Suggestion: 79

[Deleted]

Jun 9, 2015 7:55:15 GMT Hanamichi Sakuragi said:

Current: 74

Numbers: 8.4 pts, 9.5 rebs, 2.3 blks, 60.4% FG

DWS: 4.3 DBPM: 5.1


I do not know how conservative you are but those numbers does not lie so let us give this defensive dynamo the rating that he deserves, IMO.


Suggestion: 79

HOW MANY GAMES DID HE START, SEEMS TO ME TO BE IN THE "PROVE IT" PHASE 

[Hanamichi Sakuragi]

Jun 9, 2015 12:34:17 GMT @riogho said:

Jun 9, 2015 7:55:15 GMT Hanamichi Sakuragi said:

Current: 74

Numbers: 8.4 pts, 9.5 rebs, 2.3 blks, 60.4% FG

DWS: 4.3 DBPM: 5.1


I do not know how conservative you are but those numbers does not lie so let us give this defensive dynamo the rating that he deserves, IMO.


Suggestion: 79

HOW MANY GAMES DID HE START, SEEMS TO ME TO BE IN THE "PROVE IT" PHASE 

Do you really need to capitalize every letter?  
37 games.

As a starter he produced, 10.6 pts, 12.4 rebs, 2.8 blks, 1.0 stl, 59.2% FG

[Deleted]

Jun 9, 2015 12:44:30 GMT Hanamichi Sakuragi said:

Jun 9, 2015 12:34:17 GMT @riogho said:

HOW MANY GAMES DID HE START, SEEMS TO ME TO BE IN THE "PROVE IT" PHASE 

Do you really need to capitalize every letter?  
37 games.

As a starter he produced, 10.6 pts, 12.4 rebs, 2.8 blks, 1.0 stl, 59.2% FG

yes he is still in "prove it" category so 76

source: recent edit of 7 foot big man with stats 32 gp, 12.7-11.8-2.5 as a 75

[Brian Scalabrine]

79 defensive beast I expect to go higher for him later on

[Walt Frazier]

Like to see him do it a little longer but I like what he's doing. 77 for me.

[Kevin Hollis]

76

[Jeremiah Hill]

75

[Sam Bowie]

Jun 19, 2015 16:10:25 GMT Jeremiah Hill said:

75

So, since you have the 1st round pick do you think Towns or Okafor should be rated higher than Gobert? You are probably better off if they are rated low in order to tank again but that is a different story.

[Jeremiah Hill]

I think the highest rated rookie this year should be Justise Winslow just because he's alright at everything and decently athletic. The difference between Okafor/Towns and Gobert is that they can do more than finish oops and block shots. Gobert has a decent developing shot but its nothing to write home about at the moment. Even so I always say that established talent is better than a rookie and I'd put Towns at like a 73-74. Winslow at a 75-76.

[Deleted]

Jun 19, 2015 16:27:41 GMT Jeremiah Hill said:

I think the highest rated rookie this year should be Justise Winslow just because he's alright at everything and decently athletic. The difference between Okafor/Towns and Gobert is that they can do more than finish oops and block shots. Gobert has a decent developing shot but its nothing to write home about at the moment. Even so I always say that established talent is better than a rookie and I'd put Towns at like a 73-74. Winslow at a 75-76.

Gobert is the only center under 26 I like as much as Whiteside. Gobert is a beast. I made him my 1st round pick in my sim league fantasy draft.

I agree with your take on rookie ratings though. 

[Jeremiah Hill]

Ok

[Charles Barkley]

Jun 19, 2015 16:27:41 GMT Jeremiah Hill said:

I think the highest rated rookie this year should be Justise Winslow just because he's alright at everything and decently athletic. The difference between Okafor/Towns and Gobert is that they can do more than finish oops and block shots. Gobert has a decent developing shot but its nothing to write home about at the moment. Even so I always say that established talent is better than a rookie and I'd put Towns at like a 73-74. Winslow at a 75-76.

That's not how it works. THATS NOT HOW ANY OF THIS WORKS.

Does Towns or Okafor do anything nearly as good as Gobert blocks shots?



I don't think Gobert is this insane revelation of a talent either. He plays 4th fiddle to Favor, Hayward, Burks, and Burke. I mean, if you've got guys running around all game trying to man up Hayward, then dudes on Burks, and a guy on Burke so he doesn't get open 3's. And then you have Favors in the post. Yeah, there's going to be open, easy looks. I'd like to see a stat as to how many of Gobert's shot attempts were contested buckets. Because I doubt a lot of them were.

Gobert is a one trick pony. Has been since he came over. 77

EDIT CHANGED RATING TO 77

[Walt Frazier]

Jun 20, 2015 1:50:07 GMT Charles Barkley said:

Jun 19, 2015 16:27:41 GMT Jeremiah Hill said:

I think the highest rated rookie this year should be Justise Winslow just because he's alright at everything and decently athletic. The difference between Okafor/Towns and Gobert is that they can do more than finish oops and block shots. Gobert has a decent developing shot but its nothing to write home about at the moment. Even so I always say that established talent is better than a rookie and I'd put Towns at like a 73-74. Winslow at a 75-76.

That's not how it works. THATS NOT HOW ANY OF THIS WORKS.

Does Towns or Okafor do anything nearly as good as Gobert blocks shots?



I don't think Gobert is this insane revelation of a talent either. He plays 4th fiddle to Favor, Hayward, Burks, and Burke. I mean, if you've got guys running around all game trying to man up Hayward, then dudes on Burks, and a guy on Burke so he doesn't get open 3's. And then you have Favors in the post. Yeah, there's going to be open, easy looks. I'd like to see a stat as to how many of Gobert's shot attempts were contested buckets. Because I doubt a lot of them were.

Gobert is a one trick pony. Has been since he came over. 75

I liked your commercial reference, great commercial!

You're at least a bit wrong on Gobert though.

The blocks are amazing, no doubt. You forgetting about 9.5 rebounds per game in 26 mpg? That's at least a 2nd trick, the 3.2 OReb as part of those 9.5 total rpg (again, in only 26mpg) almost makes it a 3rd trick for that pony. Heck, 0.8 spg in 26mpg is solid. It's far from elite but that's pretty damn good for a big man, his steal+block # has to be among the best in the league and again, only 26mpg. At least 4 tricks IMO.

[Charles Barkley]

Jun 20, 2015 2:36:02 GMT Walt Frazier said:

Jun 20, 2015 1:50:07 GMT Charles Barkley said:

That's not how it works. THATS NOT HOW ANY OF THIS WORKS.

Does Towns or Okafor do anything nearly as good as Gobert blocks shots?



I don't think Gobert is this insane revelation of a talent either. He plays 4th fiddle to Favor, Hayward, Burks, and Burke. I mean, if you've got guys running around all game trying to man up Hayward, then dudes on Burks, and a guy on Burke so he doesn't get open 3's. And then you have Favors in the post. Yeah, there's going to be open, easy looks. I'd like to see a stat as to how many of Gobert's shot attempts were contested buckets. Because I doubt a lot of them were.

Gobert is a one trick pony. Has been since he came over. 75

I liked your commercial reference, great commercial!

You're at least a bit wrong on Gobert though.

The blocks are amazing, no doubt. You forgetting about 9.5 rebounds per game in 26 mpg? That's at least a 2nd trick, the 3.2 OReb as part of those 9.5 total rpg (again, in only 26mpg) almost makes it a 3rd trick for that pony. Heck, 0.8 spg in 26mpg is solid. It's far from elite but that's pretty damn good for a big man, his steal+block # has to be among the best in the league and again, only 26mpg. At least 4 tricks IMO.

But those tricks aren't all because of him. Blocks are the only thing I feel 100% confident in saying that Gobert is the main producer of. He alters lots of shots, and get lots of blocks. He is really good, near elite in that, probably is elite in that.

Rebounds, any team facing the Jazz has to go in it with the mindset that they will not let Favors beat them down low on either end. So what does this instill in the opposing team? Box out Favors at all costs, which could lead to easier rebounds for Gobert. Not saying that he isn't good on the boards or anything, just that if I was the opposing coach, and could chose to only box out one guy, it wouldn't be Gobert. I'd block out Favors and let my other big contest the board against Gobert. Just how I would approach that tactically.

Offensive Rebounds, again, I'd preach to not let Favors beat us there. And, I also think that when you look at the FG% of Hayward, Burke, and Burks, you have to see that they don't have a great FG%, and that neither of them took great strides in improving that this year, that we thought they would. So you have 3 supposedly good shooters, who are likely taking contested shots, and are at least being guarded on the perimeter. Now you have 2 men inside for the boards, I'd go back to wanting to box out Favors over Gobert. Again, not saying Gobert isn't good at this, but just saying that his teammates' abilities play a big role in these numbers.

And I hate the way the statisticians do steals in the NBA. If LeBron knocks away a ball on a ball-handler into the post, and Love picks it up, he is credited with the steal. All he had to do was pick the ball up. It isn't like Love is defending hard in the post and reaches around and steals it. Or that Love is denying entry passes. It could just mean that he, like Gobert, is in the right place at the right time 0.8 times a game. 

God how I hate the steal stat in the NBA, and I hate it more that people think it means a great deal to big men defensively. But do not talk about how I also use it to make the argument for a defensive increase for a big, especially now when you know that I know that you just love the steal stat relating to big men's defensive capabilities and it is usually good for an extra point in the SW threads. 

[Walt Frazier]

Jun 20, 2015 2:47:54 GMT Charles Barkley said:

Jun 20, 2015 2:36:02 GMT Walt Frazier said:

I liked your commercial reference, great commercial!

You're at least a bit wrong on Gobert though.

The blocks are amazing, no doubt. You forgetting about 9.5 rebounds per game in 26 mpg? That's at least a 2nd trick, the 3.2 OReb as part of those 9.5 total rpg (again, in only 26mpg) almost makes it a 3rd trick for that pony. Heck, 0.8 spg in 26mpg is solid. It's far from elite but that's pretty damn good for a big man, his steal+block # has to be among the best in the league and again, only 26mpg. At least 4 tricks IMO.

But those tricks aren't all because of him. Blocks are the only thing I feel 100% confident in saying that Gobert is the main producer of. He alters lots of shots, and get lots of blocks. He is really good, near elite in that, probably is elite in that.

Rebounds, any team facing the Jazz has to go in it with the mindset that they will not let Favors beat them down low on either end. So what does this instill in the opposing team? Box out Favors at all costs, which could lead to easier rebounds for Gobert. Not saying that he isn't good on the boards or anything, just that if I was the opposing coach, and could chose to only box out one guy, it wouldn't be Gobert. I'd block out Favors and let my other big contest the board against Gobert. Just how I would approach that tactically.

Offensive Rebounds, again, I'd preach to not let Favors beat us there. And, I also think that when you look at the FG% of Hayward, Burke, and Burks, you have to see that they don't have a great FG%, and that neither of them took great strides in improving that this year, that we thought they would. So you have 3 supposedly good shooters, who are likely taking contested shots, and are at least being guarded on the perimeter. Now you have 2 men inside for the boards, I'd go back to wanting to box out Favors over Gobert. Again, not saying Gobert isn't good at this, but just saying that his teammates' abilities play a big role in these numbers.

And I hate the way the statisticians do steals in the NBA. If LeBron knocks away a ball on a ball-handler into the post, and Love picks it up, he is credited with the steal. All he had to do was pick the ball up. It isn't like Love is defending hard in the post and reaches around and steals it. Or that Love is denying entry passes. It could just mean that he, like Gobert, is in the right place at the right time 0.8 times a game. 

God how I hate the steal stat in the NBA, and I hate it more that people think it means a great deal to big men defensively. But do not talk about how I also use it to make the argument for a defensive increase for a big, especially now when you know that I know that you just love the steal stat relating to big men's defensive capabilities and it is usually good for an extra point in the SW threads. 

I know what you're getting at but think you're vastly overrating the amount of times that "picks up a ball" steal happens. I think Gobert is a good defender. Maybe not elite but I think he's good. I think he gets some steals on his own. Maybe if he had 70 steals in a season, 5 or 8 were just picking the ball up. It really doesn't happen all that often in the grand scheme.

And, I've seen big men stand around in the post and not grab those rebounds that you think they should get. Maybe some of his rebounds, again, maybe SOME were b/c the other team was focusing on Favors, but give the teams at least some credit here man. Gobert started racking up the rebounds this year pretty quickly, the other teams have scouting reports. And Favors isn't Dennis Rodman. If Gobert shows he can hurt you on the glass, the teams are going to start focusing on him too. He is a good rebounder. He's a good defender.

I actually think the part about stat keeping with steals/blocks that bothers me the most is I've seen games where someone gets a block and it was clearly him who got the block (no one else close) and at the end of the game, that guy has 1 steal and zero blocks to his name. They put down some things as steals when they are really blocks, and vice versa. I'd be more inclined to believe that half of Gobert's "steals" were actually "blocks" than I am to believe that in 4 out of 5 games he happened to have a ball fall in his lap from someone else's work getting a steal.

[Charles Barkley]

Jun 20, 2015 3:35:26 GMT Walt Frazier said:

Jun 20, 2015 2:47:54 GMT Charles Barkley said:

I actually think the part about stat keeping with steals/blocks that bothers me the most is I've seen games where someone gets a block and it was clearly him who got the block (no one else close) and at the end of the game, that guy has 1 steal and zero blocks to his name. They put down some things as steals when they are really blocks, and vice versa. I'd be more inclined to believe that half of Gobert's "steals" were actually "blocks" than I am to believe that in 4 out of 5 games he happened to have a ball fall in his lap from someone else's work getting a steal.

That really happens? See, this is why I just hate stats for sports most of the time. I mean the basic stats, that the score keepers give. Basketball is sooo open to interpretation stat wise. And those base stats, those are what people use for PER and Win Shares. It just fucks things up from the bottom up. Where as in baseball, the only judgement call, stat keeper wise, is if it is an error or not. And OPS and WAR and those advanced metrics aren't based off of that. And that is why I feel that baseball is the best sport for advanced stats, and stats in general. Its the "most true" sport stat wise.

Basketball is good stat wise. But you can almost always use stats to make an argument for or against your opinion. So long as you hold to your convictions. You can twist and manipulate stats so easily in basketball. I trust my eyes a lot more than I trust reading basketball reference when it comes to making SW calls. And I'll admit that I haven't watched a lot of Jazz basketball.

And, in relation to my Gobert rating, I feel I left him low. I looked at his numbers, took what I could from deducing them and his team, and made a judgement rating. I didn't consider other players ratings that are similar to his at his position, and I try not to most of the time. That is a whole other argument that I don't want to get in to.

I will update my original post on his rating. But I am bumping it up to a 77. I see the kids' future, but does he see it? Does his teammates? Do the Jazz? So often we look at what they could be, and hype up the player, kind of inflating their rating. And lose grasp of who they are in the present. 

He hasn't produced for a long enough time in my book. And his numbers are less than someone I would compare him to, Drummond, and he did it for a worse team (not exactly sure how to deduce that one, so I just stopped thinking about what his team's success means to him and his stats). 

Going with a 77. Stellar prospect. The Giannis of Centers. The New Jonas

[Deleted]

I think James Kay had a really good post in a thread where we were talking about Gobert VS Whiteside that summed up just how good he was defensively.

[Mike Krzyzewski]

77

[Jeremiah Hill]

Are we really gonna rate a guy averaging 8 points a game more than 75? Like he should have good ratings in dunk, block and rebounding that's it. Everything is average or bad.

[Brian Scalabrine]

Halfway through next season he should have new thread. I have a feeling he'll be low 80s then

[Deleted]

Jul 16, 2015 22:03:06 GMT Jeremiah Hill said:

Are we really gonna rate a guy averaging 8 points a game more than 75? Like he should have good ratings in dunk, block and rebounding that's it. Everything is average or bad.

How many Jazz games did you watch? Do you know what this guy did when he got the minutes?

[Jeremiah Hill]

He's a little more creative on the break than I give him credit for here, but its not something that is a prevalent part of his game.