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Post by Alex English on Dec 31, 2014 21:19:43 GMT
I'm calling it: Alex English does not own the draft rights to Livio Jean-Charles, so judging by the last post of Charles Barkley this trade is void. The rule that all GMs have one year in which to sign second-rounders supercedes all other discussion in this Livio Jean-Charles problem. I squeaked in and signed James Ennis ten days before the deadline, and a few other GMs did the same with their second-rounders, so it's not like this rule is unknown. It's clear enough that the one-year-rule applies to all second-rounders, there is no reason why this would be different for those players who don't instantly come to the NBA. If Alex English wanted to keep LJC he would have tried to sign him along with his other second rounders before the year was expired and then we would have come across the issue that actually needs resolving here: what do we do if a GM wants to sign a second-rounder who doesn't instantly play in the NBA? The draft rights of First Rounders who don't instantly play in the NBA, like Dario Saric, are held by the drafting team without a salary coming off their books. Therefore Second Rounders who also don't instantly play in the NBA, like Livio Jean-Charles, must first be signed by the team who owns their draft rights by posting in the usual thread. In both instances, for 1st and 2nd rounders, the salary doesn't start being paid until the player plays in the NBA. I should have foreseen that some confusion may arise over second-rounders who don't instantly play in the NBA and I should have included this in an amendment to the rules that I will write now, but I don't believe the confusion was enough that it means the Denver Nuggets now get to sign Livio Jean-Charles. I was going to post some new sims but I've spent 45 minutes breaking this down and I feel like this judgement is fair. I think this is completely ridiculous. How was I supposed to know to sign him first when he doesn't even exist in our league yet? I have done this with a few rookies on purpose since my roster is full. I also hold the rights to Alex Abrines and Deshaun Thomas, both in Europe like Jean-Charles. Ian Noble this is incorrect and you are attributing a rationale to me that you can't assume is correct, as it's not based on anything I've actually said or done. In fact you can see in my salary chart (last edited Dec 13) that I have their draft rights listed. I put them there immediately after drafting them. I contend that demonstrates my interest in keeping them and owning their rights. I also had other second rounders I didn't sign like Nemanja Nedovic who did play in the NBA. I chose not to sign him, let his rights lapse, and removed him from my salary chart. I should have foreseen that some confusion may arise over second-rounders who don't instantly play in the NBA and I should have included this in an amendment to the rules that I will write now You even agree this is an ambiguous situation and that's it's reasonable that GMs wouldn't know anything had to be done regarding these second rounders. Charles Barkley has actually been under the same imprssion as me: I drafted 2 guys in the second because I was under the assumption that overseas players would be treated the same, no matter where they were drafted This new policy: Therefore Second Rounders who also don't instantly play in the NBA, like Livio Jean-Charles, must first be signed by the team who owns their draft rights by posting in the usual thread. didn't exist at the time so how can it be fair to hold me to it? This decision is uncharacteristic of how this league has always acted when dealing with grey area situation. We've always allowed the inciting incident that drew our attention to any specific issue, then made a rule afterwards to clear up any further confusion. I think there is a fair amount of precedent with this, most notably being when Josh circumvented the free agency to sign Lance Stephenson to a long term deal with little to no competition from other teams. His situation is even worse because he actively tried to avoid the rules of the league, whereas this situation is just based on a lot of ambiguity. The decision was still to allow him to sign Lance to a long term deal, then create the Josh Barber rule for any future incidents. Why is that line of thought not being taken here? If there was no rule prior to today about situations like this, and it is reasonable that GMs wouldn't know how to go about claiming these rookies, and I've showed over the last year and half that I want Jean-Charles (and my other overseas picks) by having him on my salary chart, then how is it also reasonable to void my draft rights to Jean-Charles using the new policy? |
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Post by Alex English on Dec 31, 2014 21:46:46 GMT
There is also this little nugget from the 2013 draft, where I took Jean-Charles: You may draft undrafted rookies from this year but, if they are not included in an NBA-Live.com update for Live '06 or 2k13, they will be counted as voided picks. If those players do eventually appear in a NBA-Live.com update then the drafting team will own their rights. We did away with undrafted players in 2014, but that clearly implies you don't have to do anything to 'claim' a drafted player's rights. You own the rights simply by drafting them. |
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Post by Ian Noble on Jan 1, 2015 17:51:32 GMT
You knew you had to sign second rounders to keep them, that was the only rule in place that related to second rounders. You assumed you kept LJC's draft rights somehow. I don't see how you could make that assumption.
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Post by Alex English on Jan 1, 2015 18:24:35 GMT
You knew you had to sign second rounders to keep them, that was the only rule in place that related to second rounders. You assumed you kept LJC's draft rights somehow. I don't see how you could make that assumption. Because he's not actually in our league yet. It is not a natural assumption that you have to sign a guy to his contract which will then freeze in place and not actually be counted. Not one single GM over the course of three years has posted to sign a second round pick that hasn't come over yet. It's not like it's just my mistake if no one else has figured this out. Charles Barkley said in this thread he felt the same way, and Vlade Divac has said he'd like to be able to sign Nemanja Dangubic. Neither of them posted to sign them. Ultimately how is this not the nail in the coffin though? You may draft undrafted rookies from this year but, if they are not included in an NBA-Live.com update for Live '06 or 2k13, they will be counted as voided picks. If those players do eventually appear in a NBA-Live.com update then the drafting team will own their rights.You specifically say in the draft that if undrafted players eventually show up then their draft rights will be owned. How is it not the natural assumption that this will be the same standard for all drafted players? So if Livio Jean-Charles had been undrafted then I'd have his rights, since you specifically made a statement about that situation, but because he was drafted, I don't own his rights and you are applying a rule that didn't exist until yesterday. |
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Post by Ian Noble on Jan 1, 2015 18:40:44 GMT
You may draft undrafted rookies from this year but, if they are not included in an NBA-Live.com update for Live '06 or 2k13, they will be counted as voided picks. If those players do eventually appear in a NBA-Live.com update then the drafting team will own their rights.You specifically say in the draft that if undrafted players eventually show up then their draft rights will be owned. How is it not the natural assumption that this will be the same standard for all drafted players? So if Livio Jean-Charles had been undrafted then I'd have his rights, since you specifically made a statement about that situation, but because he was drafted, I don't own his rights and you are applying a rule that didn't exist until yesterday. You're right, this does override all other factors. I will make preparations for a period during which GMs can sign these players. If you post in the 2013 Draft Signing Thread (that you intend to retain LJC's draft rights), this trade can go through. |
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Post by Walt Frazier on Jan 1, 2015 18:51:50 GMT
So... Ian accepted this earlier, Scal said he would probably accept but never did officially.
I'm actually finally going to put in a reject.
This is not franchise altering, yet, but I honestly think the value is so lopsided that it is reject worthy.
Reject
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Post by Brian Scalabrine on Jan 1, 2015 18:57:55 GMT
Haha I'm not on the tc just putting in input
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Post by Alex English on Jan 1, 2015 19:02:20 GMT
You're right, this does override all other factors. I will make preparations for a period during which GMs can sign these players. If you post in the 2013 Draft Signing Thread (that you intend to retain LJC's draft rights), this trade can go through. Thank you Ian |
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Post by Walt Frazier on Jan 1, 2015 23:54:27 GMT
Haha I'm not on the tc just putting in input Oh yea haha! |
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Post by Charles Barkley on Jan 2, 2015 2:50:40 GMT
So Alex owns the draft rights to LJC now? And if he trades them to me, I'll have them until LJC comes over, right?
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Post by Andrei Kirilenko on Jan 2, 2015 3:03:22 GMT
So Alex owns the draft rights to LJC now? And if he trades them to me, I'll have them until LJC comes over, right? That depends, have you filled out the appropriate forms? |
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Post by Ian Noble on Jan 2, 2015 19:57:39 GMT
I will cut Will Barton to keep my roster at 15. Can you post the player release thread? Trade queued until Dec 15th. |
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Post by Charles Barkley on Jan 2, 2015 22:35:36 GMT
I will cut Will Barton to keep my roster at 15. Can you post the player release thread? Trade queued until Dec 15th. Did I miss something, or did only 2 people vote? |
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Post by Walt Frazier on Jan 2, 2015 22:41:33 GMT
I believe we are at one Accept and one Reject. I could have missed something too.
Ian could be confused because I originally was going to accept but changed to a reject.
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Post by Alex English on Jan 2, 2015 23:01:44 GMT
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Post by Clyde Drexler on Jan 3, 2015 0:17:18 GMT
Nice move English
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Post by Walt Frazier on Jan 3, 2015 3:24:17 GMT
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Post by Charles Barkley on Jan 3, 2015 7:16:03 GMT
What if 1 rejecxts and 1 accepts, then its a leauge vote, right?
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Post by Bryan Colangelo on Jan 3, 2015 17:38:33 GMT
Sorry that iv been MIA, been sick in bed since Christmas. Since Alex is allowed to trade Livio Jean-Charles, i will accept the trade. The trade isn't horrible, but the winner of the deal at this point is Alex. It all depends on how this Livio Jean-Charles dude performs and Charles seems to be very high on him.
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Post by Walt Frazier on Jan 3, 2015 18:19:26 GMT
What if 1 rejecxts and 1 accepts, then its a leauge vote, right? I think it also depends when Ian updates things tbh. Right now there are 2 Accepts so it should pass. If the other vote gets on and rejects before Ian sees this, it might go to league vote. |
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Post by Ian Noble on Jan 3, 2015 20:05:39 GMT
I just assumed this trade was accepted since it created so much extra bloody work for me  Still waiting on Danny Longley! |
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Post by Charles Barkley on Jan 3, 2015 20:23:06 GMT
I just assumed this trade was accepted since it created so much extra bloody work for me Still waiting on Danny Longley! Yeah it was like one of those meaningless court cases that actually had to do with civil liberties or some shit. |
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Post by Ian Noble on Jan 3, 2015 21:08:31 GMT
I just assumed this trade was accepted since it created so much extra bloody work for me Still waiting on Danny Longley! Yeah it was like one of those meaningless court cases that actually had to do with civil liberties or some shit. Lol Charles. |
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Post by Charles Barkley on Jan 3, 2015 21:53:58 GMT
Ian Noble , you updated the trade already, it cannot process until Dec 15th per league rules. Also, Danny Longley can still weigh in and put it to a league vote, which would be kinda cool.
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Post by Ian Noble on Jan 3, 2015 22:08:43 GMT
League votes always get rejected!
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Post by Charles Barkley on Jan 3, 2015 22:50:27 GMT
League votes always get rejected! I didn't know that, I've just never seen one. I think everyone here is over valuing Len by a ton and undervaluing LJC by a ton. LJC, by all accounts, will come in and be Boris Diaw 2.0. 6'9 Combo Forward with great passing ability. Really excited to have him, hate to lose Len. But, when I made this trade, I for sure thought in my mind I was winning it. Guess everyone else feels differently and thats cool. |
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Post by Ian Noble on Jan 3, 2015 23:37:17 GMT
League votes always get rejected! I didn't know that, I've just never seen one. I think everyone here is over valuing Len by a ton and undervaluing LJC by a ton. LJC, by all accounts, will come in and be Boris Diaw 2.0. 6'9 Combo Forward with great passing ability. Really excited to have him, hate to lose Len. But, when I made this trade, I for sure thought in my mind I was winning it. Guess everyone else feels differently and thats cool. Well, there's not been many, so not *all* votes. I just expect that to happen  |
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Post by Charles Barkley on Jan 3, 2015 23:59:58 GMT
I didn't know that, I've just never seen one. I think everyone here is over valuing Len by a ton and undervaluing LJC by a ton. LJC, by all accounts, will come in and be Boris Diaw 2.0. 6'9 Combo Forward with great passing ability. Really excited to have him, hate to lose Len. But, when I made this trade, I for sure thought in my mind I was winning it. Guess everyone else feels differently and thats cool. Well, there's not been many, so not *all* votes. I just expect that to happen I get that Len is playing well right now, but he is so injury prone. And I have probably the best steal of the draft in Nurkic, plus Aldridge dominates when he plays. Ed Davis is a 7 and 7 guy and I have his BRs I figured I could afford to lose Len, get rid of chalmers, i like illyasova more, plus ive scouted LJC a ton and think he is a stud |
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Post by Danny Longley on Jan 4, 2015 3:27:47 GMT
Still really hate this for Houston, but like Bryan said, Charles seems to really be sold on LJC, and I guess Len hasn't quite hit the point that it's rejectable.
Accept.
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Post by Ian Noble on Jan 4, 2015 15:16:47 GMT
Trade passed and queued until Dec 15th!
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