Nuggets - Rockets

[Alex English]

^{Denver Nuggets trade:}
79 Ersan Ilyasova - $7,900,000 - $8,300,000 - $8,600,000
Draft rights to Livio Jean-Charles

Total: $7,900,000

^{Houston Rockets trade:}
79 Mario Chalmers - $5,000,000 - $5,550,000 - $6,160,500
69 Alex Len - $2,017,500 - $2,104,300 - $2,180,820 - $2,241,064

Total: $7,017,500

---

I accept. I actually hate Mario Chalmers and his contract kinda sucks, but Andre Miller is ancient and can't be a legit back up PG anymore. I also need an actual back up center as all my posts besides Lopez are PFs, and Len has played alright this year after looking like a huge bust in his rookie year. So this deal should strengthen my bench, and if Len keeps playing well then who knows. I like Ilyasova and he's always been very efficient, but the Bucks have about 50 power forwards so he's never gotten legit playing time. I also expect Livio Jean-Charles to come over and be an impact player for the Spurs since draft and stash is basically what they do. But Ersan's contract sucks and who knows how long the wait for Jean-Charles will be.

**This trade will have to be queued until Dec 15 in sims when Chalmers becomes eligible to be traded**

[Alex English]

I will cut Will Barton to keep my roster at 15.

[Charles Barkley]

I accept. At the end of the day, I'd rather have Illyasova to Chalmers and LJC to Len.

Yeah, Len has showed some bursts of potential this season, but he is an oft-injured big man playing on one of the deepest teams in the league. Plus, I have Nurkic who has been better than expected, so well that the Nuggets were looking to move Mozgov. And the next draft is loaded at the PF/C position. LJC is a guy that has a lot of potential and it is always smart to mimic the moves of the best franchise in basketball. I hate Chalmers and just signed him in case Rose would be hurt again but that fear has passed. Illyasova isn't the greatest 4 in the world and he isn't in the best of situations but he plays a position that I lack depth in, and it is basically a 2 year contract and I'm not losing any cap room by having him. I'm sure I could package him in the future if need be.

[Ian Noble]

I accept.

[James Kay]

FWIW, I think that this is a great move by DEN. PHX's medical staff will take care of Len, and I can see him filling PHX's main weakness - the C position - by developing strongly within the next year. Potential steal, IMO, especially with Ily's equal and arguably worse injury track record.

[Walt Frazier]

Alex English, mastermind, at it again. Len is the real get in this trade. Charles, you are selling short! Ilyasova is a negative and LJC will come over in 20?? and even when/if he does, we have no idea how good he will be. I would personally lower Ilyasova to like a 77 or 78 and bump Len up to a 74 based on what we've seen so far this season. I think Len is worth more than Ilyasova alone!

I hate rejecting a trade between two managers who have been here and who I trust they have a vision for their team, but I'm honestly close.

I gotta think on it.

[Walt Frazier]

I'm still on the fence with this! Alex wins this trade in value by about 400%. Chalmers for Ilyasova favors Chalmers, LJC is a complete unknown basically, and Len is going for practically free.

Put another way, I'm 100% positive that LJC & Ilyasova for Chalmers would get accepted, so why is Len in here?

Anyway, I'll think about it. This is good for Alex. Charles, I think you will regret this...

On the fence, kinda leaning reject.

[Deleted]

I don't know...Brook Lopez and Paul George may not be as good as for seen.

[Danny Longley]

Probably won't matter if Bryan accepts, but holding my vote since I don't think this trade should be up yet. Heck, around this time my first trade for Rondo got scrapped because of the Dec. 15 thing.

I will say that I'm really hating it for the Rockets. I'd have snap accepted Chalmers for Ilyasova and begrudgingly accepted Len for Ilyasova if either were legal in terms of the money - for both though, I don't know. May be undercutting LJC, but he's yet to play a minute in the NBA.

Len's doing really well and I'm just not a fan of the rationale that because Nurkic is there and doing alright, Len should go for cheap.

[Jeremiah Hill]

Since when is Phx medical staff basically spirit healers? Alex Len has foot problems. No amount of Phx Med Staff voodooery is going to stop that from being a risk. Them keeping a 180 pound PG who never jumped higher than 5 inches healthy for as long as they did is because he didn't exactly have his body on the line due to extraordinary athleticism. Stoudamire, Bledsoe and several others have all had injury issues while playing for the Suns. As far as Chalmers for Illysova, meh they are both kind of just meh guys imo.

[Ian Noble]

Dec 29, 2014 15:09:20 GMT Jeremiah Hill said:

Since when is Phx medical staff basically spirit healers?

Since Grant Hill!

[Andrei Kirilenko]

I think this should be rejected. Len has been balling this season. 9.8 points, 7.6 rebounds and 2.8 blocks over his past five games. Beat out the bad Plumlee for the starting job.

[Walt Frazier]

Barber may have convinced me...I really am on the fence with this I just truly don't want to control managers tooooo much if they both like it. But damn, Ilyasova is not good and gets paid a lot! After looking at him more for the rating decrease and you are right, Len is due for an increase and is only getting better. Seems like Alex really makes out. LJC just isn't worth as much as these two maybe think he is?

I'm going to modify my post above to take out the accept, I'm still on the fence.

[Alex English]

The 10 games before that he averaged 3.7 points, 4.2 boards and shot 34.1%. Obviously I like when he plays well, but he's just as inconsistent as you'd expect from a young player who hasn't figured it out yet. He's not really an elite prospect.

[Andrei Kirilenko]

Do you even have draft rights to this guy anymore since he was never signed to a contract?

[Alex English]

Ultimately, I really don't think any of these players are good enough to warrant this trade being rejected. Only role players are being moved in this deal.

[Andrei Kirilenko]

He was drafted here

Which is the same place Ray McCallum was drafted, whom I traded for here


and per a PM with Ian after the trade,

"Hey Ian,

As you saw, I'm trading for Ray McCallum from LAL. Magic drafted him in last year's 2nd round, but never signed him to a contract.

What are my options for signing him to a deal? I know there are two different contracts you can give 2nd rounders, but do I need to go ahead and do that, or can I wait until next season to sign him?"

"You have to sign him before OSFA begins this year, which is June 26th.

dynasty5ive.proboards.com/thread/3503/2013-14-schedule"



So, in conclusion: LVJ is a free agent whom no one owns the rights to

[Alex English]

Dec 30, 2014 0:07:27 GMT Andrei Kirilenko said:

Do you even have draft rights to this guy anymore since he was never signed to a contract?

I absolutely should. He hasn't come over to the NBA yet. If second rounders who are in the league aren't signed in the first year then you lose them, but this is different. The Atlanta Hawks won't lose the rights to Dario Saric at the end of the season, same thing here.

[Alex English]

Dec 30, 2014 0:11:35 GMT Andrei Kirilenko said:

He was drafted here

Which is the same place Ray McCallum was drafted, whom I traded for here


and per a PM with Ian after the trade,

"Hey Ian,

As you saw, I'm trading for Ray McCallum from LAL. Magic drafted him in last year's 2nd round, but never signed him to a contract.

What are my options for signing him to a deal? I know there are two different contracts you can give 2nd rounders, but do I need to go ahead and do that, or can I wait until next season to sign him?"

"You have to sign him before OSFA begins this year, which is June 26th.

dynasty5ive.proboards.com/thread/3503/2013-14-schedule"



So, in conclusion: LVJ is a free agent whom no one owns the rights to

Ray McCallum was signed by the Kings last year and played in the NBA.

[Andrei Kirilenko]

Either way, you're trying to pawn off a terrible contract + a 2nd rounder for a top 5 pick in last year's draft. This kid isn't some bust, big men just take time to develop

[Brian Scalabrine]

For the record I think this trade isn't so franchise changing that it should be rejected.

[Walt Frazier]

Dec 30, 2014 0:28:28 GMT Brian Scalabrine said:

For the record I think this trade isn't so franchise changing that it should be rejected.

This is the main reason I'm still on the fence. I honestly think Alex gets WAY more value than he gives. Especially considering Ilyasova's rating is going down and he's a negative contract to hold for the next 2 years. Chalmers is worth more than Ersan, period. He makes less, will have a higher rating, and has more of an impact IRL. LJC is a total unknown, and Len looks to have legit NBA talent.

On value it's bad, I just think the teams have enough left to not reject most likely...I'll vote later tonight or tomorrow.

[Danny Longley]

Dec 30, 2014 0:12:13 GMT Alex English said:

Dec 30, 2014 0:07:27 GMT Andrei Kirilenko said:

Do you even have draft rights to this guy anymore since he was never signed to a contract?

I absolutely should. He hasn't come over to the NBA yet. If second rounders who are in the league aren't signed in the first year then you lose them, but this is different. The Atlanta Hawks won't lose the rights to Dario Saric at the end of the season, same thing here.

Key difference though, is that the Hawks got Saric with the 15th pick, a 1st Rounder.

As early as LJC went, he was still taken with a 2nd Rounder. I don't think they should get the same treatment considering how other 2nd Rounders should enter free agency if unsigned.

[Alex English]

Dec 30, 2014 1:57:32 GMT Danny Longley said:

Dec 30, 2014 0:12:13 GMT Alex English said:

I absolutely should. He hasn't come over to the NBA yet. If second rounders who are in the league aren't signed in the first year then you lose them, but this is different. The Atlanta Hawks won't lose the rights to Dario Saric at the end of the season, same thing here.

Key difference though, is that the Hawks got Saric with the 15th pick, a 1st Rounder.

As early as LJC went, he was still taken with a 2nd Rounder. I don't think they should get the same treatment considering how other 2nd Rounders should enter free agency if unsigned.

I don't see why 2nd rounders should be treated differently. A draft pick is a draft pick. He was picked in the first round in real life, but he slipped a little here where I picked him up at 31. Why should I be punished and lose my prospect because I had a pick that was one spot too late?

Also if we do that then half of the picks in the second round should just be forfeit since Ian doesn't allow picking undrafted players. So all the NBA draft and stash players from the second round become lost picks our league.

[Walt Frazier]

I will say, I've had to sign like 4 2nd Rounders the last 2 years before I would really want to b/c of the league's rules. We only get to keep 2nd Rounders for one full season. Once the next season's OFSA begins, if you haven't signed them, they are supposed to be lost to you.

[Charles Barkley]

Dec 30, 2014 1:57:32 GMT Danny Longley said:

Dec 30, 2014 0:12:13 GMT Alex English said:

I absolutely should. He hasn't come over to the NBA yet. If second rounders who are in the league aren't signed in the first year then you lose them, but this is different. The Atlanta Hawks won't lose the rights to Dario Saric at the end of the season, same thing here.

Key difference though, is that the Hawks got Saric with the 15th pick, a 1st Rounder.

As early as LJC went, he was still taken with a 2nd Rounder. I don't think they should get the same treatment considering how other 2nd Rounders should enter free agency if unsigned.

I drafted 2 guys in the second because I was under the assumption that overseas players would be treated the same, no matter where they were drafted

[Alex English]

Dec 30, 2014 2:51:38 GMT Walt Frazier said:

I will say, I've had to sign like 4 2nd Rounders the last 2 years before I would really want to b/c of the league's rules. We only get to keep 2nd Rounders for one full season. Once the next season's OFSA begins, if you haven't signed them, they are supposed to be lost to you.

If they are in the NBA. Players that don't come to the NBA aren't even added to the players database. How can I sign Jean-Charles when he doesn't actually exist in our league?

This seems very straightforward to me, and we have already decided it's how we'll operate with first rounders like Saric. We have players that aren't in the NBA, aren't even in our players database, and are forced to be picked because we only use the 60 drafted players as our player pool for each draft. How can it possibly be considered fair to void those picks after the season?

[Charles Barkley]

<<<<< Would like to know about the LJC issue, obviously if he isn't included, I don't want to do the deal.

[Ian Noble]

I'm calling it: Alex English does not own the draft rights to Livio Jean-Charles, so judging by the last post of Charles Barkley this trade is void.

The rule that all GMs have one year in which to sign second-rounders supercedes all other discussion in this Livio Jean-Charles problem. I squeaked in and signed James Ennis ten days before the deadline, and a few other GMs did the same with their second-rounders, so it's not like this rule is unknown.

It's clear enough that the one-year-rule applies to all second-rounders, there is no reason why this would be different for those players who don't instantly come to the NBA. If Alex English wanted to keep LJC he would have tried to sign him along with his other second rounders before the year was expired and then we would have come across the issue that actually needs resolving here: what do we do if a GM wants to sign a second-rounder who doesn't instantly play in the NBA?

The draft rights of First Rounders who don't instantly play in the NBA, like Dario Saric, are held by the drafting team without a salary coming off their books. Therefore Second Rounders who also don't instantly play in the NBA, like Livio Jean-Charles, must first be signed by the team who owns their draft rights by posting in the usual thread. In both instances, for 1st and 2nd rounders, the salary doesn't start being paid until the player plays in the NBA.

I should have foreseen that some confusion may arise over second-rounders who don't instantly play in the NBA and I should have included this in an amendment to the rules that I will write now, but I don't believe the confusion was enough that it means the Denver Nuggets now get to sign Livio Jean-Charles.

I was going to post some new sims but I've spent 45 minutes breaking this down and I feel like this judgement is fair.

[Deleted]

Dec 31, 2014 14:47:57 GMT Ian Noble said:

I'm calling it: Alex English does not own the draft rights to Livio Jean-Charles, so judging by the last post of Charles Barkley this trade is void.

The rule that all GMs have one year in which to sign second-rounders supercedes all other discussion in this Livio Jean-Charles problem. I squeaked in and signed James Ennis ten days before the deadline, and a few other GMs did the same with their second-rounders, so it's not like this rule is unknown.

It's clear enough that the one-year-rule applies to all second-rounders, there is no reason why this would be different for those players who don't instantly come to the NBA. If Alex English wanted to keep LJC he would have tried to sign him along with his other second rounders before the year was expired and then we would have come across the issue that actually needs resolving here: what do we do if a GM wants to sign a second-rounder who doesn't instantly play in the NBA?

The draft rights of First Rounders who don't instantly play in the NBA, like Dario Saric, are held by the drafting team without a salary coming off their books. Therefore Second Rounders who also don't instantly play in the NBA, like Livio Jean-Charles, must first be signed by the team who owns their draft rights by posting in the usual thread. In both instances, for 1st and 2nd rounders, the salary doesn't start being paid until the player plays in the NBA.

I should have foreseen that some confusion may arise over second-rounders who don't instantly play in the NBA and I should have included this in an amendment to the rules that I will write now, but I don't believe the confusion was enough that it means the Denver Nuggets now get to sign Livio Jean-Charles.

I was going to post some new sims but I've spent 45 minutes breaking this down and I feel like this judgement is fair.

While this ruling doesn't really affect me, well I might want to sign Nemanja Dangubic, I think you handled it well.