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Post by Charles Barkley on Jul 24, 2014 10:25:46 GMT
Alright, so over the past few days, instead of messing around in paint trying to figure out some new Houston Rockets jersey's, I've created this spreadsheet of information. It includes 40 big men from around are league, I hopefully got all the ones rated 80+, and I tried to include one from each team. If anyone wants me to add more to the sheet I will. My intent is to create a CIVILIZED discussion about the ratings vs real life production, because there is a large disparity in some cases. However, if nothing else, it is an easy source of the last seasons out put of the top big men in the league. The sheet also includes Holingers Team Stats, Oppenent FG%, and Team DRtg and ORtg stats. I included the Team DRtg specifically because the formula for Player DRtg is unfair and is based mostly on estimates, which isn't an accurate display of production. All player stats are from basketballreference.com, the team stats, besides the ORtg and DRtg ones, are from ESPN.com, while the other are also from bball ref. Another note: I wanted to include guys from each team, which lead to some young guys on the list, for these guys, I included a page of Per 36 stats to somewhat project what they could be. I did not do it for everyone not playing 36 minutes a night, because some players physically can't play 36 minutes a night, i.e. Garnett. Anyways, enjoy, discuss, think, analyze. I'm not going to be an instructor here and tell you what to look and what to take from it; I trust you all are smart enough to do it yourselves. Once again, please remain CIVILIZED in any discussion resulting from this. The first rule of an argument is to not make it personal, especially in this. This will give you the exact excel spreadsheet: www.filedropper.com/bigmend5_2This is the google.doc, please not, this will not allow you to sort things very well, docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1d_e_zo8SXNzGeDo2DNvMdQDeexr1O1XM7CHOFarH_b4/edit?usp=sharingEnjoy. Edit: Love added, links are correct Edit: updated excel file
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Post by Charles Barkley on Jul 24, 2014 10:28:40 GMT
I also want to note that I will be doing this with the SF position, the SG position, and the PG position.
I will place the players into the position that BBall Ref uses.
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Post by Walt Frazier on Jul 24, 2014 12:55:08 GMT
Alright, so over the past few days, instead of messing around in paint trying to figure out some new Houston Rockets jersey's, I've created this spreadsheet of information. It includes 40 big men from around are league, I hopefully got all the ones rated 80+, and I tried to include one from each team. If anyone wants me to add more to the sheet I will. My intent is to create a CIVILIZED discussion about the ratings vs real life production, because there is a large disparity in some cases. However, if nothing else, it is an easy source of the last seasons out put of the top big men in the league. The sheet also includes Holingers Team Stats, Oppenent FG%, and Team DRtg and ORtg stats. I included the Team DRtg specifically because the formula for Player DRtg is unfair and is based mostly on estimates, which isn't an accurate display of production. All player stats are from basketballreference.com, the team stats, besides the ORtg and DRtg ones, are from ESPN.com, while the other are also from bball ref. Another note: I wanted to include guys from each team, which lead to some young guys on the list, for these guys, I included a page of Per 36 stats to somewhat project what they could be. I did not do it for everyone not playing 36 minutes a night, because some players physically can't play 36 minutes a night, i.e. Garnett. Anyways, enjoy, discuss, think, analyze. I'm not going to be an instructor here and tell you what to look and what to take from it; I trust you all are smart enough to do it yourselves. Once again, please remain CIVILIZED in any discussion resulting from this. The first rule of an argument is to not make it personal, especially in this. This will give you the exact excel spreadsheet: www.filedropper.com/bigmend5This is the google.doc, please not, this will not allow you to sort things very well, docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1d_e_zo8SXNzGeDo2DNvMdQDeexr1O1XM7CHOFarH_b4/edit?usp=sharingEnjoy. No Love?
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Post by Charles Barkley on Jul 24, 2014 13:10:16 GMT
Yeah, I missed some guys. At first, I was just comparing post players against Pekovic. I'll add love right now and edit things so that he is in there. Thank you. And please, if I've missed anyone else, I apologize and will update ASAP
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Post by Charles Barkley on Jul 24, 2014 13:20:27 GMT
Yeah, I missed some guys. At first, I was just comparing post players against Pekovic. I'll add love right now and edit things so that he is in there. Thank you. And please, if I've missed anyone else, I apologize and will update ASAP Love added.
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Post by Jeremiah Hill on Jul 24, 2014 13:23:46 GMT
I'll take a look at this when I get on my PC.
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Post by Charles Barkley on Jul 24, 2014 13:33:13 GMT
<a href=http://www.filedropper.com/bigmend5_1><img src=http://www.filedropper.com/download_button.png width=127 height=145 border=0/></a><br /><div style=font-size:9px;font-family:Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif;width:127px;font-color:#44a854;> <a href=http://www.filedropper.com >online backup</a></div>
Well damn, this didn't work.
I really wish we could post tables in these forums, I still have yet to figure it out, but File Dropper said it would work...
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Post by Jeremiah Hill on Jul 24, 2014 13:48:06 GMT
Look at team defense per game, it's like Mike Brown still doesn't believe the three point shot is a thing.
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Post by Jeremiah Hill on Jul 24, 2014 14:59:36 GMT
Gleaming some tidbits from the wall of data.
-Dear God Anthony Davis is fixing to be good as shit if he can stay healthy.
-Guys who need a look at for a decrease into the 70's based on basic stats: Garnett(shell), Bogut (Efficient 0 on defense), Hibbert (43FG% 0 on offense) (All perform worse or very similar to 76 overall Robin Lopez while also having a similar or worse impact on their perspective teams) and none of those guys has a high rating due to mostly to athleticism like DeAndre Jordan or Dwight Howard.
-Our top 10 is more or less what I'd agree with. Maybe 1-3 guys drop down and bring a few up depending on personal preference but I think we did an alright job. It's mostly the lower guys and middle class of actual performance is where stuff if just the wild wild west.
-Guys who might need a look at for a mild decrease based on more or less just PER I'm running off Openoffice so my sort tools suck some dick: Tyson Chandler, Josh Smith, Carlos Boozer the other two names I was about to list are already named)
-I don't think there is really much of a difference between Kenneth Faried and Greg Monroe I think Faried should probably be lowered.
-Faried's Per36 points are wrong per bask-ref.
-I might be a little wrong about Pekovic but not completely and he still sure as fuck ain't no 86.
-Drtg and Ortg might be completely useless when trying to compare players.
-Joakim Noah is exactly as good as advertised despite middling PPG.
-Guys who I think are still worth their rating right now but will definitely end up lowered sometime mid next season due to team change or system change: Pau Gasol (Health concerns), Josh Smith (if they get rid of Monroe and he gets to play PF he might actually end up being worth this rating again), David West (Is more or less turning into Kendrick Perkins with a post jumper),
-Guy I might have been wrong about but will probably put up the numbers next season to justify his current rating: Chris Bosh
-Guys who might need a look at for a minor drop: David Lee (Is literally the same player as Pekovic plus a bit of passing and more fun to watch)
-Guys who the jury is still out on but I'm comfortable where they are at for now: Drummond, Favors, Asik, Jonas, Monroe.
Just a few things I noticed from the Data. I'm gonna hold off while other people compile their opinions and then I'll look at them and maybe put in some change threads.
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Post by Deleted on Jul 24, 2014 15:04:37 GMT
Guy I might have been wrong about but will probably put up the numbers next season to justify his current rating: Chris Bosh Can I make this my signature?!?!?!?!
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Post by Jeremiah Hill on Jul 24, 2014 15:41:21 GMT
Guy I might have been wrong about but will probably put up the numbers next season to justify his current rating: Chris Bosh Can I make this my signature?!?!?!?! Josh Smith still sucks.
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Post by Charles Barkley on Jul 24, 2014 16:13:17 GMT
Can I make this my signature?!?!?!?! Josh Smith still sucks. Keep it clean. Bosh didn't put up an 87 rating worth of stats, but its because of his team. The next season will determine where he falls, or rises, or stays the same. I'm thinking All-Star break is where we look at him again. Same with Smith, if he gets traded and gets to play the 4 or an athletic 5, he could deserve his rating, but for now I think he should be dropped. With the SWC, they will be on top of things and can easily rate him at the AS Break up again. That's my opinion on those two guys. Have a big opinion on others, I think Faried could end up like Josh Smith ATL version in a year or two, which is great. Jeremiah Hill I don't know what you mean about the Per 36, they are all correct, or should be. Faried's Per 36 is literally insane.
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Post by Charles Barkley on Jul 24, 2014 16:17:22 GMT
A big thing on this that Walt Frazier may want to look at is: If we decrease who looks like should be decreased, we don't have to increase who it looks like should be increased. Like Pek, he looks like he could go up to around the David Lee / Pau Gasol level, but not if we move those guys down to Earth a bit. I'd like everyone to at least take a look at this stuff. Working on SG's now. There aren't 40 good SG's in the league, it's kind of funny.
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Post by Deleted on Jul 24, 2014 16:28:12 GMT
Just curious, how come we give Bosh a pass because of his team but not Johnson? Clearly, BRK possesses more players that could score than Miami did.
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Post by Charles Barkley on Jul 24, 2014 16:35:45 GMT
Just curious, how come we give Bosh a pass because of his team but not Johnson? Clearly, BRK possesses more players that could score than Miami did. Haven't gotten to SG's yet. IMO, at least I believe I said it in the previous post, Bosh should be lowered, he didn't play like an 87. If he brings it back up to that level at the All-Star Break, bam, he's back up. Same goes with Joey J. The way I believe ratings should work, and this is a personal opinion that I am going to adhere to from now on, if a player played like an 80, they get an 80 for my vote, it could be LeBron or Durant. I'm giving no benefit of the doubt, I'm not accounting for mouths to feed, out of position players, etc. I will, however, not vote to lower players who have been hurt a lot etc. And if those players look to be increased, I won't vote to increase them as high as they could be. I also reserve the right to change this decision of mine at any time. At first glance, Joe looks like he lands in the top 20 stats wise, maybe top 10. The SG crop is weak as fuck. Like, Dion Waiters comes in around Joe Johnson. And I, personally think that Dion holds the better value right now being young and judging his Per 36 numbers, which I am putting in for young players who didn't play 36 minutes. Please notice I said value and not better player.
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Post by Jeremiah Hill on Jul 24, 2014 16:52:09 GMT
Just curious, how come we give Bosh a pass because of his team but not Johnson? Clearly, BRK possesses more players that could score than Miami did. Because Miami has gotten to the finals 4 years in a row with Bosh playing the center position Nets were a Pierce block away from losing to the Raptors.
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Post by Deleted on Jul 24, 2014 16:53:09 GMT
Just curious, how come we give Bosh a pass because of his team but not Johnson? Clearly, BRK possesses more players that could score than Miami did. Haven't gotten to SG's yet. IMO, at least I believe I said it in the previous post, Bosh should be lowered, he didn't play like an 87. If he brings it back up to that level at the All-Star Break, bam, he's back up. Same goes with Joey J. The way I believe ratings should work, and this is a personal opinion that I am going to adhere to from now on, if a player played like an 80, they get an 80 for my vote, it could be LeBron or Durant. I'm giving no benefit of the doubt, I'm not accounting for mouths to feed, out of position players, etc. I will, however, not vote to lower players who have been hurt a lot etc. And if those players look to be increased, I won't vote to increase them as high as they could be. I also reserve the right to change this decision of mine at any time. At first glance, Joe looks like he lands in the top 20 stats wise, maybe top 10. The SG crop is weak as fuck. Like, Dion Waiters comes in around Joe Johnson. And I, personally think that Dion holds the better value right now being young and judging his Per 36 numbers, which I am putting in for young players who didn't play 36 minutes. Please notice I said value and not better player. Yeah I sort of figured that out from your posts. Honestly, I never even considered your way of thinking to be possible until this RC/SWC committee. Once we get the ratings semi-right then I think it could work and it would be pretty cool to have up to the season rating changes. Prior, however, it took Ian forever to update the ratings and he's probably the best commish ever and for sure the most consistent. Back in the day, you basically played with the ratings as they were and hoped the commish kept simming. You could almost say our argument revolved primarily around this issue. It would probably be best to talk about it and figure out how to attack but right now I think we should try to be moderate in our rating changes.
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Post by Deleted on Jul 24, 2014 16:54:19 GMT
Just curious, how come we give Bosh a pass because of his team but not Johnson? Clearly, BRK possesses more players that could score than Miami did. Because Miami has gotten to the finals 4 years in a row with Bosh playing the center position Nets were a Pierce block away from losing to the Raptors. Right, but how does that affect a scoring average?
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Post by Jeremiah Hill on Jul 24, 2014 16:56:35 GMT
Because Miami has gotten to the finals 4 years in a row with Bosh playing the center position Nets were a Pierce block away from losing to the Raptors. Right, but how does that affect a scoring average? Not doing it again.
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Post by Jeremiah Hill on Jul 24, 2014 17:07:45 GMT
Oh, Charles. It's because you accidentally used the Per100 possessions stats for Faried instead of the Per36 stats. His Per36 is really good but the guy isn't Kevin Love lol.
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Post by Jeremiah Hill on Jul 24, 2014 17:12:37 GMT
There are essentially 16 double double guys of varying effectiveness out of the guys that Charles posted. SG's are gonna suck balls.
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Post by Charles Barkley on Jul 24, 2014 17:21:04 GMT
Oh, Charles. It's because you accidentally used the Per100 possessions stats for Faried instead of the Per36 stats. His Per36 is really good but the guy isn't Kevin Love lol. This is now fixed on both the downloadable sheet and google.doc Sorry for the delay.
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Post by Clyde Drexler on Jul 24, 2014 17:50:06 GMT
-Guys who need a look at for a decrease into the 70's based on basic stats: Garnett(shell), Bogut (Efficient 0 on defense) Which is why I was super hesitant to offer him 10+ million dollars in FA
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Post by Jeremiah Hill on Jul 24, 2014 18:09:11 GMT
-Guys who need a look at for a decrease into the 70's based on basic stats: Garnett(shell), Bogut (Efficient 0 on defense) Which is why I was super hesitant to offer him 10+ million dollars in FA Probably a smart idea to not offer a 30 year old who hasn't played a full season in 6 years a 5 year 60 million dollar deal.
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Post by Charles Barkley on Jul 24, 2014 18:30:28 GMT
At the minimum, I felt that this would be a good place for people to look at stats. Rather than having 20 tabs of basketball reference open.
My biggest concern with all of this is there are some guys declining that I feel should be lowered, but won't be because of their body of work. I feel strongly that the players should be rated for real life production, especially if the SWC is on top of things.
For example, if we drop Pau down to an 82, where he could possibly be argued to be lowered to, to start the season, if he improves and is the old Pau we know and love, dropping 19-22 a game, with 10 boards, 1.5 blocks and 4+ assists, the SWC bumps him back up.
Also, by lowering guys, we indirectly increase the rating and value of the other bigs, in this case. Like Vucevic/Pek/The guys in the 80 range that could be on the climb look better when guys like Bogut/Lee/Pau/etc are around the 80 range as well.
I feel that the SWC changes things for the better. We can now have a fluid rating system. Not saying we change things every week, but players should be looked at at the AS Break, and at season's end at least.
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Post by Charles Barkley on Jul 29, 2014 15:44:37 GMT
I will be breaking this down, giving my opinion on this later today or tomorrow morning. I will also get around to adding the bigs I missed in another sheet.
I will do PGs, Missed Bigs, Missed players in general, and then I will make a master sheet with everything on it.
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