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Post by James Kay on Jul 2, 2014 15:20:21 GMT
Just a thought about the inclusion of the big-market-tendency, this makes it much harder to acquire a superstar for small market teams such as myself. We either have to draft them and wait like 3-4 years or trade our entire teams away which obviously isn’t realistic, favorable, or really even feasible. Just saying, for a league that has a pretty high turnover of GMs, having to wait 3-4 years for a chance of a superstar is pretty intense. I guess that’s the price of realism though? Although, other realistic aspects such as extensions and rookie development are not present. Any thoughts? I just wanna sign Melo next year but I know I have no chance La La will have none of that haha
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Post by Deleted on Jul 2, 2014 15:21:09 GMT
I don't think we should nor do incorporate this but I could be wrong. Besides, it is WAY over-hyped by ESPN.
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Post by James Kay on Jul 2, 2014 15:23:16 GMT
That's what the star next to FA's means... I'm pretty sure this was a big factor in Griffin's decision as well.
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Post by Deleted on Jul 2, 2014 15:25:56 GMT
That's what the star next to FA's means... I'm pretty sure this was a big factor in Griffin's decision as well. Griffin constituted the only FA this season with that star by his name and no I do not think it played a big factor in his decision to stay with the LACs. No one ever could tell me why he would leave the Clippers in the first place.
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Post by James Kay on Jul 2, 2014 15:28:42 GMT
Because they have almost the same roster as last year and couldnt make the playoffs?
the only move they made was boozer for JR smith
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Post by Deleted on Jul 2, 2014 15:31:16 GMT
Because they have almost the same roster as last year and couldnt make the playoffs? the only move they made was boozer for JR smith They started off really slow, played better once they got Eric Gordon, Mike traded the big threat as you said, and they still came away as the 10th best team in the league.
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Post by James Kay on Jul 2, 2014 15:32:05 GMT
Because they have almost the same roster as last year and couldnt make the playoffs? the only move they made was boozer for JR smith They started off really slow, played better once they got Eric Gordon, Mike traded the big threat as you said, and they still came away as the 10th best team in the league. Doesnt matter if your 10th best when you cant make the playoffs.. Griffin couldve made 3rd seed in the east w me
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Post by Deleted on Jul 2, 2014 15:34:18 GMT
They started off really slow, played better once they got Eric Gordon, Mike traded the big threat as you said, and they still came away as the 10th best team in the league. Doesnt matter if your 10th best when you cant make the playoffs.. Griffin couldve made 3rd seed in the east w me He can't be the 3rd, 2nd, or 1st seed in the west?
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Post by James Kay on Jul 2, 2014 15:36:22 GMT
It wouldn't seem so.
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Post by James Kay on Jul 2, 2014 15:36:38 GMT
Anyway this isn't what I wanted this discussion to be about...
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Post by Jeremiah Hill on Jul 2, 2014 15:41:33 GMT
I think some guys show a tendency to want to go to a big market, Melo cried his way to NYC because he wanted to play in a big market. Other stars have shown that doesn't matter Ibaka is one of them, the majority of guys in the NBA will take whatever the best money is. But the fact is that smaller market teams typically have to overpay to get good players. But, its a lot easier to get good guys onto a small market team if your team is good. One thing people need to realize is that Miami is actually a small market. How they market themselves is with big assed Latin women and weather, that's it. Think of the things that makes your teams city unique and market with that.
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Post by Jeremiah Hill on Jul 2, 2014 15:43:13 GMT
I don't care of Melo was offered 30 mil a year he's not going to Charlotte.
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Post by James Kay on Jul 2, 2014 15:48:16 GMT
I don't care of Melo was offered 30 mil a year he's not going to Charlotte. I'm just wondering if it's unfair to include realistic aspects in Free Agency and not other types of team-building.
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Post by Deleted on Jul 2, 2014 15:48:22 GMT
Average Starting 5 for the "Big 9" in the West from last year: 1. GSW: 425 2. POR: 424 3. DAL: 417 *428 with PP*4. DEN: 424 5. LAL: 416 6. OKC: 418 7. MIN: 417 8. SAC: 416 9. LAC: 426 Therefore, two things are clear: 1. The Clippers are actually the best rating wise from last year and I honestly think they are the most talented team. 2. This fact pisses me off the most because little idiots (like Billy King) like to put down some of the bottom teams in the west at the bottom but the truth is WE ARE ALL GOOD AND WE ALL COULD WIN ON ANY GIVEN YEAR!
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Post by James Kay on Jul 2, 2014 15:54:16 GMT
Average Starting 5 for the "Big 9" in the West from last year: 1. GSW: 425 2. POR: 424 3. DAL: 417 *428 with PP*4. DEN: 424 5. LAL: 416 6. OKC: 418 7. MIN: 417 8. SAC: 416 9. LAC: 426 Therefore, two things are clear: 1. The Clippers are actually the best rating wise from last year and I honestly think they are the most talented team. 2. This fact pisses me off the most because little idiots (like Billy King) like to put down some of the bottom teams in the west at the bottom but the truth is WE ARE ALL GOOD AND WE ALL COULD WIN ON ANY GIVEN YEAR!Lol OK! Im just saying that maybe there is something besides rating affecting that team... like chemistry? Fact is a team with melo parker griffin jordan and gordon didnt make the playoffs. I think its realistic to assume that chemistry was an issue
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Post by Jeremiah Hill on Jul 2, 2014 16:11:26 GMT
Its because that roster doesn't fit together at all.
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Post by Jeremiah Hill on Jul 2, 2014 16:18:23 GMT
I would say that a good middle ground would be that a player drafted by you becomes a restricted free agent. But then a player you traded for can't become a RFA. And that a person on their second contract can't be an RFA. Also a lot of teams are handicapping themselves by signing guys like Paul Peirce to 5 year deals. I think that those deals should stay even if the guy retires. I also think that a player agent should have had peirce sign a one or two year deal.
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Post by Charles Barkley on Jul 2, 2014 16:24:10 GMT
I think a lot of how well a team performs is based off of how the team fits together along with what the "meta" in the sim engine is.
Each player has a unique personality and the player agents need to best represent this personality. Does Melo want to play in a large market? He did, and now he wants to win. Kevin Love wants to play in a big market, or so he says. A problem that occurs is when a player becomes a free agent in D5 before he becomes a FA in real life. A player's free agency shows what their true motives are: do they want to win? do they want a big pay day? are they loyal to their teams? and so on and so forth.
Should the "big market tag" be removed? I don't know. I would say that it shouldn't matter. I think Ian said that it is what the sim distinguishes them as in game. But I feel it most important for the play agent to represent the player in the most accurate way possible.
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Post by Deleted on Jul 2, 2014 16:32:29 GMT
Yet they went to the finals the year before? I think they are going to be fine.
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Post by James Kay on Jul 2, 2014 16:37:23 GMT
Yet they went to the finals the year before? I think they are going to be fine. Good point. Maybe Tony Parker slept with La La or something.
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Magic Johnson
Former Lakers GM
Sophomore
Posts: 458
Feb 27, 2024 20:39:01 GMT
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Post by Magic Johnson on Jul 2, 2014 17:47:09 GMT
IF realism and BIG MARKET were big factors then I would already have Harden, Derozan, Ibaka, Griffin, etc. etc.
but instead I don't have any of those and just lost Gortat, so I don't see where you are going with Big-Market-Tendency when this FA just proved that there is none of that when OKC, Utah, and TOR just got quality FA on the team.
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Magic Johnson
Former Lakers GM
Sophomore
Posts: 458
Feb 27, 2024 20:39:01 GMT
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Post by Magic Johnson on Jul 2, 2014 17:56:29 GMT
NOW would I would like to see is a LEBRON JAMES OR SHAQ type of move to another team (regardless of big market or small market).
With the exception of Dwight Howard last year, we never saw one free agent at that caliber that would make the move to another team for whatever the reason maybe (money, championships, starting position, prestige, weather etc).
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Chris Mullin
Golden State Warriors
Starter
Posts: 1,303
Feb 19, 2024 21:58:28 GMT
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Post by Chris Mullin on Jul 2, 2014 17:57:23 GMT
I honestly think there can be pros and cons for both "large" and "small" market teams, but it is up to each GM given their situation to sell their organization, city, and fans. For example if you were trying to discount a team that plays in LA and you are a small market team, as the opposing GM I would attack the "stereotypical late arriving, early leaving" LA fans. Same thing could be said if you were going against the Miami Heat in a battle for a player. On the flip side you would then sell your passionate, rabid fanbase that fill/sellout your arena every night because you are the #1 show in town. This is just 1 small example but as someone mentioned in this thread earlier you have to find what is unique and attractive about your organization, city, and fans work hard to sell the player and his agent on why you are the best fit for them. This might require some outside of the box thinking on GMs part but I think it is doable. Sell your strengths and attack your opponents weaknesses. This is a skill in itself, just like the ability to make trades is a skill.
I think a major mistake GMs make in this league in regards to free agency is that they don't have a clear picture in mind of what they want their team to be and therefore just end up chasing the highest rated players regardless of their strengths/weaknesses and what kind of fit they would be on their current roster. Doing this might get you a player or 2 but it might also come at the expense of winning games because your roster is not balanced and you might have some glaring weaknesses that need to be addressed despite possibly having 5 players rated 80+ on your roster.
Also by chasing every high rated player you just end up putting in a very average attempt/pitch to those free agents and their agent. I also think you have to be smart and use some common sense when approaching free agency. If you're a small market team, with no real attractive pieces or a young prospect or 2 you are not going to sign the top available free agents. However, large market teams have also missed out on players in this league to smaller markets (Serge Ibaka this year). If you're a small market team IMO you have to go after those next level down free agents that are realistically getable and are not going to be the main focus of the majority of teams in the league. Put your time and energy into signing those getable guys while more established teams fight over "big name" free agents. Once you have collected some talent then you package it to upgrade for an all star or 2 and now the next time free agency rolls around you're in a better position to get a "big name" guy.
Another important factor is the age of the player and where they are in their career. For example a few years ago Carmelo wanted to get paid and be in NY and he got his wish but it was at the expense of the Knicks being able to put the right pieces around him. Now Carmelo wants to win and wants to go somewhere where they have established players that have already proven they can win in the NBA. So I would say when Melo becomes a free agent in D5 if he didnt resign with the Clippers then he would be looking for a team that can pay him Melo type money but to where he can also join already established players who are in position to contend immediately with his addition regardless of market size as long as the other criteria was met. This would mean teams full of young prospects who are still a few years away tho would probably have no chance to sign him in free agency.
Given the type of league this is its impossible to have a perfectly realistic free agency system. I've been in a lot of sim leagues and I have not seen a better system than what we currently have in place here in D5. Free Agency is high risk, high reward business and think the majority of your moves in this league still have to come via trading. The name of the game is collecting assets (free agency, trades, draft) that can be traded for the pieces you really want. I dont know what the perfect balance would be but I don't think you can completely discount the market size here since IRL that does play a factor some times. And yes it does help when the player IRL signs 1st so we get a better feel for his motives at the present time since they can change throughout a players' career.
Anyways just a few of my thoughts on this topic. I know a lot of what I said has been mentioned already but I just wanted to add on some of my own thoughts.
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Post by Andrei Kirilenko on Jul 2, 2014 18:17:59 GMT
Serge Ibaka, perhaps the best available "gettable" free agent, signed to a team in one of the smallest markets, who had a 24-58 record last year, and have 2 starters who have never played in the NBA before. I don't think there's a big market tendency
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Post by Clyde Drexler on Jul 2, 2014 18:25:54 GMT
Serge Ibaka, perhaps the best available "gettable" free agent, signed to a team in one of the smallest markets, who had a 24-58 record last year, and have 2 starters who have never played in the NBA before. I don't think there's a big market tendency Charlotte also finished 2nd in the Blake Griffin sweepstakes. Blake was the only player on the free agent list to have the big market star next to his name and yet he still almost didn't go to one!
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Deleted
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May 4, 2024 10:40:55 GMT
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Post by Deleted on Jul 2, 2014 18:30:37 GMT
I honestly think there can be pros and cons for both "large" and "small" market teams, but it is up to each GM given their situation to sell their organization, city, and fans. For example if you were trying to discount a team that plays in LA and you are a small market team, as the opposing GM I would attack the "stereotypical late arriving, early leaving" LA fans. Same thing could be said if you were going against the Miami Heat in a battle for a player. On the flip side you would then sell your passionate, rabid fanbase that fill/sellout your arena every night because you are the #1 show in town. This is just 1 small example but as someone mentioned in this thread earlier you have to find what is unique and attractive about your organization, city, and fans work hard to sell the player and his agent on why you are the best fit for them. This might require some outside of the box thinking on GMs part but I think it is doable. Sell your strengths and attack your opponents weaknesses. This is a skill in itself, just like the ability to make trades is a skill. I think a major mistake GMs make in this league in regards to free agency is that they don't have a clear picture in mind of what they want their team to be and therefore just end up chasing the highest rated players regardless of their strengths/weaknesses and what kind of fit they would be on their current roster. Doing this might get you a player or 2 but it might also come at the expense of winning games because your roster is not balanced and you might have some glaring weaknesses that need to be addressed despite possibly having 5 players rated 80+ on your roster. Also by chasing every high rated player you just end up putting in a very average attempt/pitch to those free agents and their agent. I also think you have to be smart and use some common sense when approaching free agency. If you're a small market team, with no real attractive pieces or a young prospect or 2 you are not going to sign the top available free agents. However, large market teams have also missed out on players in this league to smaller markets (Serge Ibaka this year). If you're a small market team IMO you have to go after those next level down free agents that are realistically getable and are not going to be the main focus of the majority of teams in the league. Put your time and energy into signing those getable guys while more established teams fight over "big name" free agents. Once you have collected some talent then you package it to upgrade for an all star or 2 and now the next time free agency rolls around you're in a better position to get a "big name" guy. Another important factor is the age of the player and where they are in their career. For example a few years ago Carmelo wanted to get paid and be in NY and he got his wish but it was at the expense of the Knicks being able to put the right pieces around him. Now Carmelo wants to win and wants to go somewhere where they have established players that have already proven they can win in the NBA. So I would say when Melo becomes a free agent in D5 if he didnt resign with the Clippers then he would be looking for a team that can pay him Melo type money but to where he can also join already established players who are in position to contend immediately with his addition regardless of market size as long as the other criteria was met. This would mean teams full of young prospects who are still a few years away tho would probably have no chance to sign him in free agency. Given the type of league this is its impossible to have a perfectly realistic free agency system. I've been in a lot of sim leagues and I have not seen a better system than what we currently have in place here in D5. Free Agency is high risk, high reward business and think the majority of your moves in this league still have to come via trading. The name of the game is collecting assets (free agency, trades, draft) that can be traded for the pieces you really want. I dont know what the perfect balance would be but I don't think you can completely discount the market size here since IRL that does play a factor some times. And yes it does help when the player IRL signs 1st so we get a better feel for his motives at the present time since they can change throughout a players' career. Anyways just a few of my thoughts on this topic. I know a lot of what I said has been mentioned already but I just wanted to add on some of my own thoughts. I agree with everything you said minus the stuff pertaining to this topic lol. The market does not matter all in these sim leagues and teams can build however they wish. The Miami Heat, in real life and especially in this league, are built like the New York Yankees in basketball and are not a huge market like someone said earlier. I also think the market BS is a con so that New York and LA teams can sign big name free agents. I NEVER hear anyone talk about Dallas and Houston as big markets and they are the 4th and 5th biggest metropolitan areas respectively (in fact, DFW is slightly bigger.) I would also like to point that Gortat took his talents and left the Lakers for SALT CITY UTAH, A CITY OF 190,000 PEOPLE! :0 Basically, I think it's over-hyped in real life and it's not even remotely a factor in this sim league.
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Post by Jeremiah Hill on Jul 2, 2014 18:38:13 GMT
Gortat turned down the Lakers in real life to play for the Wizards.
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Post by Andrei Kirilenko on Jul 2, 2014 18:41:06 GMT
Serge Ibaka, perhaps the best available "gettable" free agent, signed to a team in one of the smallest markets, who had a 24-58 record last year, and have 2 starters who have never played in the NBA before. I don't think there's a big market tendency Charlotte also finished 2nd in the Blake Griffin sweepstakes. Blake was the only player on the free agent list to have the big market star next to his name and yet he still almost didn't go to one! Yea, I'm not sure what was going on between Walt and James Kay this offseason xoxoxo
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Post by James Kay on Jul 2, 2014 19:04:34 GMT
Charlotte also finished 2nd in the Blake Griffin sweepstakes. Blake was the only player on the free agent list to have the big market star next to his name and yet he still almost didn't go to one! Yea, I'm not sure what was going on between Walt and James Kay this offseason xoxoxo I think everyone has misunderstood my post…when I say big-market-tendency I am really mainly talking about the players that have that symbol next to them. I am not talking about Gortat or Ibaka lol. I just wanted to spark a discussion on whether or not this gives an unfair advantage to big market teams in acquiring superstars. I believe that some advantage is fine and in the best interests of realism. I was just wondering if it has too strong of an affect for a simulation league. Also, please don’t take this as whining or complaining. I’m perfectly fine with the results of my own free agency. In response to Mullin, I did exactly what you advised this free agency. How else do you think I was able to come 2nd in the Griffin sweepstakes and also land Ibaka? This should also answer your question, Josh. You should’ve seen the essays I was writing to Walt on the daily.
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Post by Walt Frazier on Jul 2, 2014 19:05:29 GMT
Serge Ibaka, perhaps the best available "gettable" free agent, signed to a team in one of the smallest markets, who had a 24-58 record last year, and have 2 starters who have never played in the NBA before. I don't think there's a big market tendency Charlotte also finished 2nd in the Blake Griffin sweepstakes. Blake was the only player on the free agent list to have the big market star next to his name and yet he still almost didn't go to one! Honestly both the NY teams are rough and the Lakers had ZBo and Vucevic already. Not that Blake wasn't better than those two guys but Big Market tendency doesn't mean it's a lock.
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