James Harden

[Andrei Kirilenko]

Apr 26, 2014 19:52:02 GMT Alex English said:

Apr 26, 2014 19:44:32 GMT Andrei Kirilenko said:

Thanks, I didn't mean to be condescending, but just raw offensive numbers alone are quite useless without considering contextual factors (see: everyone on the 76ers or Timberwolves).

I don't know exactly how pace is calculated into those ratings, but, my point is, I expect Harden's numbers are a bit inflated due to being on a team with higher pace.

I honestly don't know how much of an affect 4 or 5 more possessions has on per game numbers, but yes, you are right that Harden's raw stats will be slightly inflated. But adjusting for that would also make the 4 less field goal attempts per game an even larger gap, and it won't make him any less efficient.

The FGA is misleading... if we add in a FGA for every 2 free throws the 3 guys take, I bet they're all about even. Harden isn't taking less shots, he's just having less of them show up on the boxscore

[Brian Scalabrine]

A free throw is much more efficient than a shot though. Even the best shooters don't shoot 72 percent which is the likelihood of 85 percent free throw shooter getting two.

[Brian Scalabrine]

Also that is completely discounting the possibility that with a miss you can still get one point

[Alex English]

Yea exactly. The most efficient ways to score are layups/dunks, three pointers, and free throws. That's what Harden's offense is built around. Which is not a coincidence since Daryl Morey is the GM.

Like Josh said though, this isn't really about his offense. My point is just that we can't lower Harden on the face of it just because of shitty defense in a youtube clip since that could easily end up lowering his offensive categories unjustly. I think we need his individual ratings before we can really discuss the possibility of lowering him.

[Walt Frazier]

Apr 26, 2014 19:24:25 GMT Alex English said:

Apr 26, 2014 18:58:38 GMT Andrei Kirilenko said:

None of those stats mean anything until you take pace into account

It's pretty impressive you are able to completely dismiss everything I said with only one sentence.

That's the Josh Barber special, really. One-liners w/o any actual thought that seem "zingy" but are generally thoughtless and baseless and don't contribute anything to the discussion.

[Walt Frazier]

I will say, thank you Barber for at least attempting a real conversation afterwards, but you pull that one-liner stuff all the time, it is annoying and doesn't help anything really. Instead of what you said, you could do some research and show us how the pace affects the numbers you are talking about.

[Andrei Kirilenko]

[Deleted]

I already voiced my opinion about the matter, but I am curious; how much would Josh want to lower Harden in his ideal world? I would be okay with two points because he plays crappy defense but nothing insane.

[Andrei Kirilenko]

I don't want to lower him at all, I think 88 is fine. I didn't think it was fine when we raised him there initially (which was like 1-2 months into him joining the Rockets IIRC), but, as Alex said, he's an elite offensive player.

[Deleted]

Well, I don't see much of a disagreement here then....unless Alex really thinks he should get a raise lol.

[Walt Frazier]

Apr 27, 2014 0:57:09 GMT Andrei Kirilenko said:

Can I keep this and use it every time you bring in a one-liner?

[Clyde Drexler]

As much as I hate James Harden's defense, and even though I could see him as an 86, I don't think we should change him from an 88.

[Walt Frazier]

I honestly think we should pause rating changes on guys in the playoffs until after their playoffs are over. For example, if Houston gets eliminated this round, THEN a James Harden post could be made. Such reactionary opinions after one or two playoff games, it's crazy.

As a Knicks fan, I'm reminded strongly of Jerome James. Used one good playoff run to get a monster contract that should never have been given out.

So yes, I just called some of you guys Isaiah Thomas the GM, which was a terrible, terrible thing.

[Jeremiah Hill]

This is not a reactionary post, this is a confirmation post of what I've thought. Like maybe he didn't try because it's the regular season or something. Well these are important games these matter and he just STILL doesn't care.

[Walt Frazier]

Apr 28, 2014 1:12:17 GMT Jeremiah Hill said:

This is not a reactionary post, this is a confirmation post of what I've thought. Like maybe he didn't try because it's the regular season or something. Well these are important games these matter and he just STILL doesn't care.

Fair enough. I do see reactionary posts here though, didn't mean just your thread-starter or anything like that.

I do think we should wait until the end of a series to post anything though, because there are people here who have probably changed their mind from game to game about a player, I've seen it before.

[Jeremiah Hill]

Apr 28, 2014 13:05:38 GMT Walt Frazier said:

Apr 28, 2014 1:12:17 GMT Jeremiah Hill said:

This is not a reactionary post, this is a confirmation post of what I've thought. Like maybe he didn't try because it's the regular season or something. Well these are important games these matter and he just STILL doesn't care.

Fair enough. I do see reactionary posts here though, didn't mean just your thread-starter or anything like that.

I do think we should wait until the end of a series to post anything though, because there are people here who have probably changed their mind from game to game about a player, I've seen it before.

I'm comfortable putting in a freeze on rating changes until the real life playoffs are over. But Harden is a joke on defense. 

[Deleted]

Actually Harden has actually played well compared to others in the postseason:

www.cbssports.com/nba/playerrankings/postseason/OVERALL

[Walt Frazier]

I'm good keeping him at an 88 for now.

[Jeremiah Hill]

I'm not even saying he needs a decrease, but more of a reorganization of his stats to make him more of the one way player that he is. If we can do this without overpowering his offense.