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Post by Deleted on Apr 6, 2014 3:33:28 GMT
Current Rating: 83
Proposed Rating: 90
His stat dwarf Chris Bosh's who everyone feels is rated an 88. Therefore, I feel like Rudy Gay should be a 90.
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Post by Jeremiah Hill on Apr 6, 2014 3:45:01 GMT
Rudy Gay is the only player to average over 20 points that when you take him off the team they jump from being a lottery team to being a 4 seed in the playoffs and a division winner.
And when you add him to a real life Sacramento team they somehow get even worse.
I honestly have no explanation for why this happens with him.
However on your team he's not shooting even close to his real percentage. He's a below average 3pt shooter on the season. I say increase his inside and mid range so he shoots a bit better. He's not a 90 though.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Apr 6, 2014 3:50:17 GMT
Rudy Gay is the only player to average over 20 points that when you take him off the team they jump from being a lottery team to being a 4 seed in the playoffs and a division winner. And when you add him to a real life Sacramento team they somehow get even worse. I honestly have no explanation for why this happens with him. However on your team he's not shooting even close to his real percentage. He's a below average 3pt shooter on the season. I say increase his inside and mid range so he shoots a bit better. He's not a 90 though. Keep in mind that I had him come off the bench for most of the season because he doesn't fit in with Lillard and Westbrook. |
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Post by Jeremiah Hill on Apr 6, 2014 3:54:18 GMT
Personally I can't stand Rudy Gay, I hate everything about the way he plays iso ball and all that I don't like. He's good at it. Why when someone like Carmelo does it he's able to help a team win and why when Rudy Gay does it doesn't help them win I don't know. But he's on a team with Westbrook and Lillard he should be able to shoot mid and close up shots at least what he does in real life.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Apr 6, 2014 3:56:35 GMT
Personally I can't stand Rudy Gay, I hate everything about the way he plays iso ball and all that I don't like. He's good at it. Why when someone like Carmelo does it he's able to help a team win and why when Rudy Gay does it doesn't help them win I don't know. But he's on a team with Westbrook and Lillard he should be able to shoot mid and close up shots at least what he does in real life. Well we were scoring like 70 points a game when he started previously, but don't confuse reality and the sim league. I need a good three-point shooting SF to compliment my studs. |
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Bob McAdoo
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Post by Bob McAdoo on Apr 6, 2014 20:57:08 GMT
Rudy is NOT a good 3P shooter, under 33% every year since almost 40% in 2010-11.
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Bob McAdoo
Former Pistons GM
Rookie
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Post by Bob McAdoo on Apr 6, 2014 21:00:22 GMT
...Why when someone like Carmelo does it he's able to help a team win... I wouldn't jump to that conclusion about Carmelo. There are plenty of data that say hero ball doesn't work, including Carmelo in Denver, Carmelo in NYC and Rudy in T.O. |
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Post by Alex English on Apr 6, 2014 21:37:39 GMT
2013-14 Knicks record when Carmelo takes less than 20 attempts: 12-10
2013-14 Knicks record when Carmelo takes 20 attempts or more: 21-31
2012-13 Knicks record when Carmelo takes less than 20 attempts: 16-5
2012-13 Knicks record when Carmelo takes 20 attempts or more: 31-15
2011-12 Knicks record when Carmelo takes less than 20 attempts: 21-12
2011-12 Knicks record when Carmelo takes 20 attempts or more: 8-14
2010-11 Knicks record when Carmelo takes less than 20 attempts: 7-7
2010-11 Knicks record when Carmelo takes 20 attempts or more: 7-6
Total Knicks record when Carmelo takes less than 20 attempts: 56-34 - 0.622 Win%
Total Knicks record when Carmelo takes 20 attempts or more: 67-66 - 0.504 Win%
Carmelo has played 223 games for the Knicks, they play significantly better when he shoots less than 20 attempts per game.
2012-13 Raptors record when Rudy takes less than 20 attempts: 17-16
2012-13 Raptors record when Rudy takes 20 attempts or more: 5-6
2013-14 Raptors record when Rudy takes less than 20 attempts: 6-5
2013-14 Raptors record when Rudy takes 20 attempts or more: 0-7
Total Raptors record when Rudy takes less than 20 attempts: 23-22 - 0.511 Win%
Total Raptors record when Rudy takes 20 attempts or more: 6-12 - 0.333 Win%
Same thing here. The Raptors were much better off when Rudy shot less than 20 times a game. This doesn't even take into account how much better they've played since he was traded.
Hero ball is worst ball.
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Post by Alex English on Apr 6, 2014 21:42:34 GMT
My economics professor would be proud. |
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Post by Deleted on Apr 6, 2014 21:54:45 GMT
You guys are bashing Gay rather than telling what you think his rating should be....keep in mind Chris Bosh is an 88.
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Post by Walt Frazier on Apr 6, 2014 22:07:12 GMT
2013-14 Knicks record when Carmelo takes less than 20 attempts: 12-10 2013-14 Knicks record when Carmelo takes 20 attempts or more: 21-31 2012-13 Knicks record when Carmelo takes less than 20 attempts: 16-5 2012-13 Knicks record when Carmelo takes 20 attempts or more: 31-15 2011-12 Knicks record when Carmelo takes less than 20 attempts: 21-12 2011-12 Knicks record when Carmelo takes 20 attempts or more: 8-14 2010-11 Knicks record when Carmelo takes less than 20 attempts: 7-7 2010-11 Knicks record when Carmelo takes 20 attempts or more: 7-6 Total Knicks record when Carmelo takes less than 20 attempts: 56-34 - 0.622 Win% Total Knicks record when Carmelo takes 20 attempts or more: 67-66 - 0.504 Win% Carmelo has played 223 games for the Knicks, they play significantly better when he shoots less than 20 attempts per game. 2012-13 Raptors record when Rudy takes less than 20 attempts: 17-16 2012-13 Raptors record when Rudy takes 20 attempts or more: 5-6 2013-14 Raptors record when Rudy takes less than 20 attempts: 6-5 2013-14 Raptors record when Rudy takes 20 attempts or more: 0-7 Total Raptors record when Rudy takes less than 20 attempts: 23-22 - 0.511 Win% Total Raptors record when Rudy takes 20 attempts or more: 6-12 - 0.333 Win% Same thing here. The Raptors were much better off when Rudy shot less than 20 times a game. This doesn't even take into account how much better they've played since he was traded. Hero ball is worst ball. I agree that style of play can be very detrimental. Though when a player like Melo is on, I want him taking 100% of the shots honestly, he's unstoppable when he's truly in the zone or whatever you want to call it. However, even Melo (and others kinda like him - JR Smith, Rudy Gay) seems to have "too much" confidence at times and will try to shoot himself out of a slump, but sometimes he doesn't snap it at all during that game, so he shoots his team right out of the game. I will also say, a 3rd side to this coin, is that Melo is a pretty good passer after watching him a lot the last 3 years or so. When he's not shooting as much, he's making more passes and playing better team ball certainly. That ties into the first point but it's not simply "don't shoot and we are better". It's "shoot less, get your teammates involved b/c you are a good passer, and help the team win that way while remaining a threat." Rudy Gay is not in the same class though, even though he thinks he is. |
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Post by Alex English on Apr 6, 2014 22:16:52 GMT
You guys are bashing Gay rather than telling what you think his rating should be....keep in mind Chris Bosh is an 88. If he had no rating I think I'd give him an 84. He is still a good player. It makes no sense to adjust a guy one rating point though. Chris Bosh's rating is irrelevant, they are totally different players. 85 for Rudy is too high, and 90 is ridiculous. But you knew that when you started this thread. |
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Apr 6, 2014 22:38:49 GMT
You guys are bashing Gay rather than telling what you think his rating should be....keep in mind Chris Bosh is an 88. If he had no rating I think I'd give him an 84. He is still a good player. It makes no sense to adjust a guy one rating point though. Chris Bosh's rating is irrelevant, they are totally different players. 85 for Rudy is too high, and 90 is ridiculous. But you knew that when you started this thread. Can you explain your rational more? I really want to understand why Bosh gets to be an 88 while averaging 16 and 6 while Gay averages 20 and 6 (as a perimeter player) and only stands at an 84. To me, that makes no sense. I am, however, open to learning the error of my ways. |
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Post by Blake Bowman on Apr 6, 2014 22:47:55 GMT
87
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Post by Alex English on Apr 6, 2014 23:02:39 GMT
Can you explain your rational more? I really want to understand why Bosh gets to be an 88 while averaging 16 and 6 while Gay averages 20 and 6 (as a perimeter player) and only stands at an 84. To me, that makes no sense. I am, however, open to learning the error of my ways. It's context. I'm sure this has been said like 50 times already in the Bosh thread but what Rudy Gay does for one of the worst teams in the NBA is a lot less meaningful than what Bosh does for the one of the best. Gay also plays 3 minutes more and takes 2.5 more shots than Bosh per game. Also Gay doesn't have two of the best players in the world as teammates. In the 3 games Lebron has missed this season Bosh has averaged 23.7 points, 10.3 rebounds, and 1.0 blocks. It's a shit sample size but those numbers are still pretty much identical to what he was doing in Toronto when he was the number one guy on the Raptors. |
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Apr 6, 2014 23:09:16 GMT
Can you explain your rational more? I really want to understand why Bosh gets to be an 88 while averaging 16 and 6 while Gay averages 20 and 6 (as a perimeter player) and only stands at an 84. To me, that makes no sense. I am, however, open to learning the error of my ways. It's context. I'm sure this has been said like 50 times already in the Bosh thread but what Rudy Gay does for one of the worst teams in the NBA is a lot less meaningful than what Bosh does for the one of the best. Gay also plays 3 minutes more and takes 2.5 more shots than Bosh per game. Also Gay doesn't have two of the best players in the world as teammates. In the 3 games Lebron has missed this season Bosh has averaged 23.7 points, 10.3 rebounds, and 1.0 blocks. It's a shit sample size but those numbers are still pretty much identical to what he was doing in Toronto when he was the number one guy on the Raptors. I see your point, but his numbers aren't much better than Gay's even given "that small sample size." Also, you could say he gets open shots because of Lebron and Wade, so it works both ways. Personally, I still don't understand how you guys rationalize the Bosh rating. |
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Post by Jeremiah Hill on Apr 7, 2014 1:41:35 GMT
I simply meant to say that he should be shooting + or - 2% of his actual percentages. The guy in game is shooting like 40% or something. He should at least be better than that is all I'm saying. But I don't know how his game works within his team concept that maybe that is affecting it.
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Bob McAdoo
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Post by Bob McAdoo on Apr 7, 2014 2:08:49 GMT
After having read some of the Kevin Love stock watch discussion I think that the same kind of rationale may apply and KLove is worth about 3 Rudy Gays.
Rudy is an inefficient scorer, a great rebounder for a wing player, a below average assist man, and a mediocre 3 point shooter. He is Carmelo-lite with a real world negative impact on whichever team he is on. I would say 85 max.
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Bob McAdoo
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Post by Bob McAdoo on Apr 7, 2014 2:21:55 GMT
Can you explain your rational more? I really want to understand why Bosh gets to be an 88 while averaging 16 and 6 while Gay averages 20 and 6 (as a perimeter player) and only stands at an 84. To me, that makes no sense. I am, however, open to learning the error of my ways.
Cherry-picking data clusters to suit an argument, or finding a pattern to fit a presumption.You are using Bosh's rating only because it seems to prove your point. Have you charted all of other players rated 88 to see if they support or refute your argument? Is Bosh's rating representative of those numbers - does everybody who averages 16/6 get rated 88, or is Bosh's rating an outlier based on other factors? We can't tell from your argument. |
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Post by Deleted on Apr 7, 2014 14:13:48 GMT
Can you explain your rational more? I really want to understand why Bosh gets to be an 88 while averaging 16 and 6 while Gay averages 20 and 6 (as a perimeter player) and only stands at an 84. To me, that makes no sense. I am, however, open to learning the error of my ways.
Cherry-picking data clusters to suit an argument, or finding a pattern to fit a presumption.You are using Bosh's rating only because it seems to prove your point. Have you charted all of other players rated 88 to see if they support or refute your argument? Is Bosh's rating representative of those numbers - does everybody who averages 16/6 get rated 88, or is Bosh's rating an outlier based on other factors? We can't tell from your argument. Ding ding ding! Mr. Attorney/Philosophy Major hit the nail on the head! My whole point has been, and will continue to be until it's corrected, that if you are going to lower players (ala Josh Smith) because their stats are low then you need to lower Chris Bosh. Quiet frankly, his states look more like an 82 player (say Ibaka, Danilo Gallinari, Mike Conley, Nene, Jamal Crawford, and Josh Smith if he's going to be an 83 or 84) than a Griffin, Aldridge, Love, or hell even an old ass Tim Duncan! |
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Post by Walt Frazier on Apr 7, 2014 14:15:58 GMT
Vlade, stop holding Smith down. He's actually looking like an 85, not an 83-84.
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Post by Deleted on Apr 7, 2014 14:15:59 GMT
After having read some of the Kevin Love stock watch discussion I think that the same kind of rationale may apply and KLove is worth about 3 Rudy Gays. Rudy is an inefficient scorer, a great rebounder for a wing player, a below average assist man, and a mediocre 3 point shooter. He is Carmelo-lite with a real world negative impact on whichever team he is on. I would say 85 max. No, you are applying the straw man fallacy to my argument  Basically, Barber argues that Love never got his team into the playoffs so he shouldn't be that good of a player. Honestly, I agree with Barber 100% on this point. I do think, however, that this should be applied to Bosh Spice as well because he only took Toronto to the playoffs twice and once was with Mr.Halfman-Halfamazing. Also, remember that Love plays in the West, a real conference, while Bosh's Raptor competed in the hay day of the weak East. Lebron and Wade never missed the playoffs with Cleveland and Miami respectively. Also, I think Bosh had a better supporting cast (Calderon, TJ Ford, Bargs, Hedo, etc.) than either Lebron (Mo Williams and Z) or Wade (Chalmers and Hasslem.) |
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Post by Deleted on Apr 7, 2014 14:16:18 GMT
Vlade, stop holding Smith down. He's actually looking like an 85, not an 83-84. "Never, I'll never join!" - Luke Skywalker |
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Post by Walt Frazier on Apr 9, 2014 2:25:48 GMT
Did You Know, there are only 4 actual ratings in this thread?
I'll go 85 b/c I like what he's done in Sacramento.
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Post by Brian Scalabrine on Apr 9, 2014 13:22:23 GMT
84
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Post by Jeremiah Hill on Apr 9, 2014 14:21:38 GMT
Wow, Rudy Gay is actually quietly having a wonderful season in SACTOWN. My question is, WTF aren't they winning? I mean I know they are in a tough conference but seriously.
This is very rudimentary analysis but Rudy Gay 20ppg, Cousins: 22ppg 10rpg, Isaiah Thomas 20ppg 6apg. This looks like the making of a great team. WTF is going on? Both Thomas and Gay are shooting 45%. Does anyone get to watch their games very often? I've only seen them this season when they played the Cavs.
I would agree with an 84.5
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Post by Deleted on Apr 9, 2014 14:59:20 GMT
Since the Chris Bosh wall is coming down I can be honest. I don't think you can lower him since his stats are clearly better, but I did this to make a point about Bosh more than to actually get him raised. Honestly, I agree whole-heartily with what Jeremiah said.
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Larry Bird
 Indiana Pacers
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Post by Larry Bird on Apr 9, 2014 15:37:17 GMT
85
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Post by Tracy McGrady on Apr 9, 2014 15:40:09 GMT
86
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Post by Mike Krzyzewski on Apr 9, 2014 15:42:04 GMT
84
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Denver Nuggets
Minnesota Timberwolves
Basically, Barber argues that Love never got his team into the playoffs so he shouldn't be that good of a player. Honestly, I agree with Barber 100% on this point. I do think, however, that this should be applied to Bosh Spice as well because he only took Toronto to the playoffs twice and once was with Mr.Halfman-Halfamazing. Also, remember that Love plays in the West, a real conference, while Bosh's Raptor competed in the hay day of the weak East. Lebron and Wade never missed the playoffs with Cleveland and Miami respectively. Also, I think Bosh had a better supporting cast (Calderon, TJ Ford, Bargs, Hedo, etc.) than either Lebron (Mo Williams and Z) or Wade (Chalmers and Hasslem.)
New Orleans Pelicans
LA Clippers
