Ricky Rubio

[Jeremiah Hill]

I think that he is a great passer and nothing should happen to his offensive awareness and passing stats. He's awesome at that. Regardless of pace the fact that he can get any assists shows how good of a passer he is because when you watch a Wolves game (and I'm not going to lie I've seen literally 1) the opposing guard will sag so hard it's not even funny.

The hope was that he would be a European Rondo but with Rondo you had to at least account for him out to about 13-14ft and he could finish at the rim, something that Rubio has yet to figure out.

His offense is just so limited the fact that he's longer than Jose Barea is the only reason he really gets the start.

I would say you could argue for even lower than a 78 but that would likely require lowering his passing stats which I don't think is a good idea.

[Alex English]

He's an excellent playmaker but he has never been able to shoot. It was his biggest problem when he came over to the NBA and he clearly hasn't developed a shot in the years he's been here. He's still solid but is among the worst starting point guards in the NBA. I'll give him a 79.

[Walt Frazier]

I'm sure you guys are expecting a big argument from me here, and I must say I will put out a lot of stats. I just ask that you read it all.

I'll start by saying Rubio definitely scores way too much in this league, we need to look at his shooting attributes b/c they seem to be off.

Very quickly (I will try honestly!), a few other things:

He's not a good FG% guy, clearly! Even he knows this! He's shot 9.5, 9.0, and now down to 7.7 FG attempts per game. So to his credit, he knows that's not his strength so he shies away a bit.

However, he's gone from 35.7 to 36.0 to 37.9% this season, almost a 2% jump so maybe some hope there.

3PT%, I think you aren't thinking when you post that % Barber. That's fairly average 3pt %, CERTAINLY not a bad %. Honest, considering his regular FG%, it's great, but in general, it's an average 3pt%. He's right around Jeremy Lin, Matt Barnes, Eric Bledsoe, Jarrett Jack, Kemba Walker, Russell Westbrook, Trey Burke, REggie jackson, Rudy Gay, Oladipo for 3pt %.

Again, I don't know his actual 3pt rating in this league, but it should be an average/solid rating, nothing special but he's fine there.

FT% again is nothing wrong with an 81% FT. Again, not special/elite but he's right in line with what you'd expect out of a lot of guards.

Guards with worse FT% - Tony Parker, Kawhi Leonard, Sessions, John Wall, Klay Thompson, Lawson, Beal, Bledsoe, Ellis, Oladipo, Avery Bradley, Eric Gordon, Tyreke Evans, Jimmy Butler.

Guards with slightly better FT% - Jrue Holiday, Deron Williams, Evan Turner, Kyle Lowry, Arron Afflalo, Lin, Joe Johnson (all within 1% point).


So to sum up his shooting woes...yes he's a bad FG% guy, though he's making improvement and he's smart enough to shoot less while he makes those improvements, b/c he knows that's not his strength. He's actually avg in 3pt% and he's about avg or a little above average in FT% generally, for a guard he's about average there.

[Mike Krzyzewski]

78

[Deleted]

Apr 6, 2014 2:35:32 GMT Walt Frazier said:

I'm sure you guys are expecting a big argument from me here, and I must say I will put out a lot of stats. I just ask that you read it all.

I'll start by saying Rubio definitely scores way too much in this league, we need to look at his shooting attributes b/c they seem to be off.

Very quickly (I will try honestly!), a few other things:

He's not a good FG% guy, clearly! Even he knows this! He's shot 9.5, 9.0, and now down to 7.7 FG attempts per game. So to his credit, he knows that's not his strength so he shies away a bit.

However, he's gone from 35.7 to 36.0 to 37.9% this season, almost a 2% jump so maybe some hope there.

3PT%, I think you aren't thinking when you post that % Barber. That's fairly average 3pt %, CERTAINLY not a bad %. Honest, considering his regular FG%, it's great, but in general, it's an average 3pt%. He's right around Jeremy Lin, Matt Barnes, Eric Bledsoe, Jarrett Jack, Kemba Walker, Russell Westbrook, Trey Burke, REggie jackson, Rudy Gay, Oladipo for 3pt %.

Again, I don't know his actual 3pt rating in this league, but it should be an average/solid rating, nothing special but he's fine there.

FT% again is nothing wrong with an 81% FT. Again, not special/elite but he's right in line with what you'd expect out of a lot of guards.

Guards with worse FT% - Tony Parker, Kawhi Leonard, Sessions, John Wall, Klay Thompson, Lawson, Beal, Bledsoe, Ellis, Oladipo, Avery Bradley, Eric Gordon, Tyreke Evans, Jimmy Butler.

Guards with slightly better FT% - Jrue Holiday, Deron Williams, Evan Turner, Kyle Lowry, Arron Afflalo, Lin, Joe Johnson (all within 1% point).


So to sum up his shooting woes...yes he's a bad FG% guy, though he's making improvement and he's smart enough to shoot less while he makes those improvements, b/c he knows that's not his strength. He's actually avg in 3pt% and he's about avg or a little above average in FT% generally, for a guard he's about average there.

Yeah but he needs to be lowered about 4 points because he is a bitch!

[Jeremiah Hill]

Apr 6, 2014 2:35:32 GMT Walt Frazier said:

I'm sure you guys are expecting a big argument from me here, and I must say I will put out a lot of stats. I just ask that you read it all.

I'll start by saying Rubio definitely scores way too much in this league, we need to look at his shooting attributes b/c they seem to be off.

He's got a lot of points but his percentage isn't outrageous either. Hmmm. I don't know what to make of that to be honest. It's at 40% so I mean it's still not good, might just need bumped down a smidge.

[Clyde Drexler]

Ah this is a hard one... 79

[Clyde Drexler]

Apr 6, 2014 3:17:15 GMT Vlade Divac said:

Yeah but he needs to be lowered about 4 points because he is a bitch!

[Walt Frazier]

Next up, I want to make sure the other parts of his game are not discounted too much. Shooting is just one part of the game after all. Rebounding, assists, assist-to-turnover (more telling than just assists), Steals etc are all important factors for any player.

Rebounds - Out of all Guards in the NBA, Rubio is tied for the 19th best rebounds, per game, with Chris Paul and in his short time this year, Kobe Bryant. 19th, and that includes guys like Stephenson/Paul George/PJ Tucker/Kawhi/Hayward/Turner/Butler/Harden/Iggy/Tyreke/DWade/Antetokounmpo/DeRozan/Kobe who are almost all more of a SG/SF. The exception there being DWade as probably the only SG/PG type player.

Out of all Point Guards, Rubio is behind MCW (6.1), Westbrook (5.6), Rondo (5.3), Lowry (4.8), and if you classify him, Bledsoe (4.6). Rubio is with CP3 at 4.3 a game. He's a very good rebounder for a guard. Notice MCW is long as hell and much taller than most of these guys, and Bledsoe and Westbrook are athletic freaks, so Rubio's actual rebounding skill is definitely up there among the best PG's and pure G's in the league.

Assists & such - Rubio is 6th in the league behind CP3 (10.8), Rondo (9.6), Kendall Marshall (8.8), Ty Lawson (8.8), and John Wall (8.7) at 8.6 apg himself. He also plays 31.9mpg while CP3, Lawson, and Walla re all over 35 and pushing 36mpg (Lawson & Wall). So maybe the pace is a little higher than some teams, but he is also playing under 32 mpg this season and still 6th in the NBA in assists.

Out of those 6 PG's, Rubio is the 2nd lowest TO's at 2.7. CP3 has just 2.3, he's obviously amazing I'm not comparing them as players. Rondo has 3.2, Marshall 2.9, Lawson 3.2, and Wall 3.7.

On pure Ast/TO ratio, Rubio is 6th once again in the entire NBA behind CP3, McRobers, Prigioni, Calderon, and Wolters. Go McBob! But seriously, prigs plays 20 mpg and wolters 22, both are solid but out of even relatively top PG's, Rubio is 3rd if you count Calderon. Out of our previous group of the top 6 assist leaders in the NBA, Rubio is 2nd in A/TO.

Steals - Rubio is 2nd in the league in Steals at 2.4 while CP3 leads at 2.5. The next closest is 1.9 so, Rubio and CP3 dominate this category.

I've also found a ton of articles referencing Rubio's "hard-nosed," excellent, and elite defense. Here are a couple.

fansided.com/2013/03/26/ricky-rubio-defensive-wizard/
bleacherreport.com/articles/1919221-how-worried-should-timberwolves-be-about-ricky-rubios-awful-shooting

Also from that 2nd article which you use against Rubio's shooting, which yes, he's not a good shooter we all know...

"For all this trouble, the Timberwolves are still 8.2 points per 100 possessions better on offense with Rubio on the floor. Their offense is more efficient than the Indiana Pacers and Golden State Warriors.

According to SportVU, Rubio creates 29.2 points by assist per 48 minutes, second only to the great Chris Paul. He leads the league in steals, is quick and has great length.

He’s also only 23 years old and missed over half a season's worth of action after tearing his ACL during his rookie campaign."

[Walt Frazier]

My personal rating on Rubio goes like this.

Bad Shooter in the lane especially, but actually average-ish 3pt% and solid/good FT%. Elite passer and elite ast/to (decision making & court vision). Great rebounder for a guard. Elite steals #'s and according to most people a hard-nosed or great/elite defender.

Shooting is important no doubt, but it is only one part of the game. I don't think Rubio is ever going to even sniff an 85 if he can't learn to shoot, but I also think, considering everything else he does so well, he should remain around an 82.

82 for me but I really respect defenders and how elite he is passing the ball and his help defense if nothing else is probably the best in the league for a guard.

[Walt Frazier]

Ricky Rubio is also still 23 years old until NEXT season starts. He did earn that 82 b/c of his elite areas. If he could score efficiently he'd be up in CP3 territory (94). I think what he does, he's fine at an 82, and again just 23 years old, he can get better, I don't see the need to mess with him much right now.

[Deleted]

Apr 6, 2014 3:42:55 GMT Walt Frazier said:

Ricky Rubio is also still 23 years old until NEXT season starts. He did earn that 82 b/c of his elite areas. If he could score efficiently he'd be up in CP3 territory (94). I think what he does, he's fine at an 82, and again just 23 years old, he can get better, I don't see the need to mess with him much right now.

Are you factoring in the fact that he is a bitch?

[Walt Frazier]

Seriously Vlade? This is the type of stuff that has people talking about not counting your rating suggestions at all.

[Deleted]

Apr 6, 2014 3:45:41 GMT Walt Frazier said:

Seriously Vlade? This is the type of stuff that has people talking about not counting your rating suggestions at all.

Oh everyone knows I am right about Bosh and I think I make a good point about Rubio. Sorry to tell you but he's soft and that should be reflected in his ratings if we factor in things like Bosh's role on the team. Besides, his stats are nothing to sneeze at either.

[Walt Frazier]

Honestly, take away CP3's shooting and you basically have Rubio. Their 3pt% are actually fairly close.

So, my argument is basically that CP3's ability to score, and slightly better a/to and assist #'s (in more minutes) are worth 12 rating points. Considering all that goes into a rating, I feel like a 12-point gap is plenty. Couple people here recommending a 15-16 point gap?!

It's good to put it into perspective, that's all.

[Deleted]

Apr 6, 2014 3:57:50 GMT Walt Frazier said:

Honestly, take away CP3's shooting and you basically have Rubio. Their 3pt% are actually fairly close.

So, my argument is basically that CP3's ability to score, and slightly better a/to and assist #'s (in more minutes) are worth 12 rating points. Considering all that goes into a rating, I feel like a 12-point gap is plenty. Couple people here recommending a 15-16 point gap?!

It's good to put it into perspective, that's all.

You still haven't addressed my issue but it's okay.

[Walt Frazier]

That Rubio is a bitch? Are you serious? It's not worthy of being discussed. It's invalid, not even a point that needs addressed.

[Shane Battier]

78. He is a very good passer but that's just it

[Walt Frazier]

Apr 6, 2014 4:19:48 GMT Shane Battier said:

78. He is a very good passer but that's just it

So Myro, Jennings is a point better than Rubio? How? B/C he's stupid and shoots more than Rubio? He's worse literally everywhere else. How is this justified?

[Walt Frazier]

Apr 6, 2014 3:17:47 GMT Clyde Drexler said:

Ah this is a hard one... 79

So Rubio vs Jennings is below here. All of that is really worth only 1 point?

Stat - Rubio vs. Jennings

FG% - 37.9 vs 37.6 - Rubio is smart and only takes 7.7 shots a game though, while Jennings shoots 14.2!
3pt% - 34.7 vs 34.5
FT% - 80.8 vs 74.9
REB - 4.4 vs 3.1
Ast - 8.6 vs 7.8
TO - 2.7 vs 2.6
A/to - 3.23 vs 2.95
STL - 2.4 vs 1.3

So seriously Rubio is better literally everywhere. 5% better FT%, 1.3 better rebound, 0.8 better ast. better A/to. 1.1 better Steals.

[Walt Frazier]

Apr 6, 2014 3:03:27 GMT Mike Krzyzewski said:

78

How is Brandon Jennings 1 point BETTER than Rubio? This is nonsense honestly, where's the proof?

Rubio vs Jennings is below here.

Stat - Rubio vs. Jennings

FG% - 37.9 vs 37.6 - Rubio is smart and only takes 7.7 shots a game though, while Jennings shoots 14.2!
3pt% - 34.7 vs 34.5
FT% - 80.8 vs 74.9
REB - 4.4 vs 3.1
Ast - 8.6 vs 7.8
TO - 2.7 vs 2.6
A/to - 3.23 vs 2.95
STL - 2.4 vs 1.3

So seriously Rubio is better literally everywhere. 5% better FT%, 1.3 better rebound, 0.8 better ast. better A/to. 1.1 better Steals.

[Walt Frazier]

Apr 6, 2014 2:40:57 GMT @swooshthehoop said:

I think I'll go with a 79 based off that.

You rated Jennings and Rubio the same. Evidence below for you to reconsider

So Rubio vs Jennings is below here. They are the same rating?

Stat - Rubio vs. Jennings

FG% - 37.9 vs 37.6 - Rubio is smart and only takes 7.7 shots a game though, while Jennings shoots 14.2!
3pt% - 34.7 vs 34.5
FT% - 80.8 vs 74.9
REB - 4.4 vs 3.1
Ast - 8.6 vs 7.8
TO - 2.7 vs 2.6
A/to - 3.23 vs 2.95
STL - 2.4 vs 1.3

So seriously Rubio is better literally everywhere. 5% better FT%, 1.3 better rebound, 0.8 better ast. better A/to. 1.1 better Steals.

[Walt Frazier]

Apr 6, 2014 1:58:48 GMT Alex English said:

He's an excellent playmaker but he has never been able to shoot. It was his biggest problem when he came over to the NBA and he clearly hasn't developed a shot in the years he's been here. He's still solid but is among the worst starting point guards in the NBA. I'll give him a 79.

You have Jennings and Rubio at the same exact rating. Evidence below shows quite different.

Stat - Rubio vs. Jennings

FG% - 37.9 vs 37.6 - Rubio is smart and only takes 7.7 shots a game though, while Jennings shoots 14.2!
3pt% - 34.7 vs 34.5
FT% - 80.8 vs 74.9
REB - 4.4 vs 3.1
Ast - 8.6 vs 7.8
TO - 2.7 vs 2.6
A/to - 3.23 vs 2.95
STL - 2.4 vs 1.3

So seriously Rubio is better literally everywhere. 5% better FT%, 1.3 better rebound, 0.8 better ast. better A/to. 1.1 better Steals.

[Shane Battier]

I think it's hard to compare using the stats they have since they are in different situations and different teams. I rated Jennings 1 point higher because he is a greater shooter than rubio but takes too many shots(most are ill-advised) that's why he has a low percentage. i dont know, I could probably give rubio 79 max because of his stealing ability

[Clyde Drexler]

Apr 6, 2014 4:26:13 GMT Walt Frazier said:

Apr 6, 2014 3:17:47 GMT Clyde Drexler said:

Ah this is a hard one... 79

So Rubio vs Jennings is below here. All of that is really worth only 1 point?

Stat - Rubio vs. Jennings

FG% - 37.9 vs 37.6 - Rubio is smart and only takes 7.7 shots a game though, while Jennings shoots 14.2!
3pt% - 34.7 vs 34.5
FT% - 80.8 vs 74.9
REB - 4.4 vs 3.1
Ast - 8.6 vs 7.8
TO - 2.7 vs 2.6
A/to - 3.23 vs 2.95
STL - 2.4 vs 1.3

So seriously Rubio is better literally everywhere. 5% better FT%, 1.3 better rebound, 0.8 better ast. better A/to. 1.1 better Steals.

I was going to rate Jennings at 77, but bumped it up to 78 last second.

If Rubio is taking less shots and showing that percentage then it really shows how bad of a shooter he is. I think if Jennings shot smarter and had the same attempts as Rubio per game, he would be putting up the same PPG numbers with a much better FG% than Rubio. Again that is all what ifs, but what I think.

While Rubio does have slightly better numbers in a few of those categories, Rubio's shooting limitations still have always bugged me to warrant him an 82 rating. I'll go as far as to change my rating on Rubio to an 80 instead of bumping down my rating on Jennings.

[Walt Frazier]

Apr 6, 2014 4:39:20 GMT Shane Battier said:

I think it's hard to compare using the stats they have since they are in different situations and different teams. I rated Jennings 1 point higher because he is a greater shooter than rubio but takes too many shots(most are ill-advised) that's why he has a low percentage. i dont know, I could probably give rubio 79 max because of his stealing ability

Jennings is a greater shooter? He's worse across the board. Maybe not by a lot but how is he great? Just b/c someone shoots a lot doesn't mean they're good at it. I could go be a great shooter right now in the NBA according to you I guess?

[Walt Frazier]

I guess you just think by watching both (i hope you watch both an equal-ish amount of time if this is what you're basing it off of) that Jennings has a better shot?

If so, why is Jennings' 3pt % worse, and his FT% worse?

[Shane Battier]

In comparison to Rubio. We know that Jennings can make 3 pointers while Rubio can't. Jennings has a low percentage because of bad shot selections while for Rubio, he just can't make that jumpers

[Walt Frazier]

How does Rubio make more of his 3's than Jennings if jennings is the better 3pt shooter?

What you are saying literally does not compute.

[Alex English]

Apr 6, 2014 4:28:59 GMT Walt Frazier said:

You have Jennings and Rubio at the same exact rating. Evidence below shows quite different.

Stat - Rubio vs. Jennings

FG% - 37.9 vs 37.6 - Rubio is smart and only takes 7.7 shots a game though, while Jennings shoots 14.2!
3pt% - 34.7 vs 34.5
FT% - 80.8 vs 74.9
REB - 4.4 vs 3.1
Ast - 8.6 vs 7.8
TO - 2.7 vs 2.6
A/to - 3.23 vs 2.95
STL - 2.4 vs 1.3

So seriously Rubio is better literally everywhere. 5% better FT%, 1.3 better rebound, 0.8 better ast. better A/to. 1.1 better Steals.

FG% - practically speaking their percentages are identical, over the course of 1000 shots that's a difference of 6 points, but since it is expected that efficiency will decrease as volume increases this could be an argument in Jennings favour

3pt% - again identical, and again on the basis of diminishing returns this could be argued to favour Jennings

FT% - this is actually a difference, but if you compare their career numbers you get 80.3% for Rubio and 79.9% for Jennnings

Reb - Rubio is slightly better here

Ast - Rubio is the better playmaker

TO - favours Jennings when adjusting for playing time, both this year and for their careers

A/TO - product of assists

STL - Rubio is better

Honestly man, you are splitting hairs so small it's crazy. Look at those stats again, it's would be very difficult to find two players who have more similar numbers than that. What conclusion am I even supposed to draw from such subtle differences? You want me to give Rubio a 79.5? An 80? What difference will that even make? There isn't a 1:1 ratio in terms of rating and performance, it's a lot more complicated than that, and I know you know that. What you are arguing for is trivial.