Nene

[Alex English]

I think he is fine at an 82. His rebounds are a little low but he is still an effective player. 14 and 6 is solid and he has a respectable PER of 16.3.

[Jeremiah Hill]

82 for me.

[Bryan Colangelo]

82

[Walt Frazier]

Brain is blowing up with you guys. Literally.

Do I have to post Favors' stats next to Nene's stats? How is there a 5 point difference? B/c of Nene's name?

[Walt Frazier]

30:08mpg - 14.2p / 5.8r / 3.0a / 2.2to / 1.2s / 0.9b......49.3 FG% & 59.7 FT%
vs
30:05mpg - 12.9p / 8.8r / 1.2a / 1.7to / 1.0s / 1.5b......51.2 FG% & 66.7 FT%

So...literally exactly the same mpg

Nene scores more points but that's b/c he takes more shots. He actually shoots worse from the field and worse from the line, so Favors looks like a better and more efficient scorer there.

Favors dominates the boards. 3 more per game, pretty huge advantage Favors.

Nene is better with the ball in his hand, though not great. His 3 ast come with 2.2 TO's, but Favors 1.2 ast come with 1.7 TO. Advantage Nene but neither is anything great here. This could maybe cancel out the scoring advantage Favors has.

1.2 steals to 1.0 steals. OK. Advantage Nene by a smidge? Barely worth anything.

1.5 blocks to 0.9 blocks. Fairly large advantage Favors again.


Favors' PER is 18.68
Nene's PER is 16.40

So, how is Nene 5 points better than Favors again? I'm baffled. Note, I'm not saying Favors should be an 82, but Nene should drop quite a bit if you same people are giving Favors a 77, no way in hell can you give nene an 82?!?!

[Brian Scalabrine]

79

[Mike Krzyzewski]

79

[Danny Longley]

82. I honestly think you guys are undervaluing the way he affects the offense with his mid-range game and his passing. Swap him with David West and the Pacers wouldn't miss a beat.

[Danny Longley]

Here's a nice read on those subtle things he does,some excerpts:

On Rebounding:

despite Nene's own rebounding issues, his teams have consistently been better on the glass as a whole, particularly defensively. This is a trend that has continued with many different kinds of rosters. Several players who shared court time with Nene saw their rebounding numbers jump. Emeka Okafor's rebound percentage rose 2.5 percentage points from 2011-12 to last year, and two of Al Harrington's three best rebounding years came when he played with Nene in Denver.

While Nene isn't always the man who grabs the rebound, he's almost always the one preventing the other team's best rebounder from getting it.

The other thing: Nene will often cede uncontested rebounds to his teammates if he feels it helps get a break going. Most of the time, the big man gets priority when two players go for a rebound, but it can often be better for a wing to grab a board and just start running.

On Passing:

One of Nene's obvious box-score strengths is his ability to generate assists. He averaged nearly three for the year, and a whopping 19 percent of Wizards possessions ended with a Nene assist when he was on the floor last year. Almost no player in the league is better at picking out a cutter and reading the double team.

Nene picks up a boatload of hockey assists or hockey hockey assists thanks to good ball movement. The Wizards used Nene primarily in the low post last year not because of his ability to score, but rather because of how he spots players out of double teams. While he's lost lift as a finisher and sometimes settles for jumpers, he can get into the middle well enough to collapse the defense. When he does, he can kick out or find a cutter even under heavy pressure, a skill few bigs possess.

Overall:

In a lot of ways, Nene is the anti-JaVale McGee. He doesn't electrify with his athleticism, but he does so many subtle things to help his team win. After dealing with McGee's frustrations for years, Nene's game is a breath of fresh air for Wizards' coaches.

Nene is a player that helps his team win, stats or no stats, and should not be punished just because he's not a boxscore hero.

[Walt Frazier]

I'd put Nene at an 80 but I like Favors at a 79 so again what do I know :-p

I agree he does things that might not show up in the box score, but to be fair, a lot of players do. Just b/c someone wrote an article about it for Nene doesn't mean he's completely special. There are players who box out the other team's best rebounder but still get the rebound. Doesn't make them worse than Nene in some way.

[Danny Longley]

Alright then, if that doesn't work for you - how about this:

Nene for the Wizards,is almost a +6 in production whenever he's on the court. they score less, but are also scored on less. Whatever it is Nene is doing on the court, he's ultimately helping the team win.

As for PER, sure Nene is down by two points to Favors overall, but wait - When at the PF, Nene limits his opponents to a PER of 13.0 while posting a per of 18.7, this is dampened by the fact that he gives up almost as big a margin when he plays at C (13.4 to allowing 17.4) but he also spends twice as much time at the PF than at C.

Favors' time on the court meanwhile, results in a net of -3.6 for the Jazz.

as amazing as his PER of 18.68 is - he lets his man wreak havoc on him, letting up 20.2 to his 16.2 at PF, while giving up 24.3 to his 21.4 at C.

He plays about twice as much C as PF, so it's not as bad as it seems. Still not a positive for his team though. I'm not even going to go into how PER overrates blocks and steals in the overall number, I'm pretty sure most of us know this - even Hollinger has admitted it himself.

As pretty as his line seems, Favors isn't helping his team win which unless something's changed about the way you get to the title - is the ultimate goal.

[Walt Frazier]

Apr 3, 2014 13:54:58 GMT Danny Longley said:

Alright then, if that doesn't work for you - how about this:

Nene for the Wizards,is almost a +6 in production whenever he's on the court. they score less, but are also scored on less. Whatever it is Nene is doing on the court, he's ultimately helping the team win.

As for PER, sure Nene is down by two points to Favors overall, but wait - When at the PF, Nene limits his opponents to a PER of 13.0 while posting a per of 18.7, this is dampened by the fact that he gives up almost as big a margin when he plays at C (13.4 to allowing 17.4) but he also spends twice as much time at the PF than at C.

Favors' time on the court meanwhile, results in a net of -3.6 for the Jazz.

as amazing as his PER of 18.68 is - he lets his man wreak havoc on him, letting up 20.2 to his 16.2 at PF, while giving up 24.3 to his 21.4 at C.

He plays about twice as much C as PF, so it's not as bad as it seems. Still not a positive for his team though. I'm not even going to go into how PER overrates blocks and steals in the overall number, I'm pretty sure most of us know this - even Hollinger has admitted it himself.

As pretty as his line seems, Favors isn't helping his team win which unless something's changed about the way you get to the title - is the ultimate goal.

My main problem here is that Favors IS on a very bad team. Does he have a John Wall, who is arguably playing like a top 10 player these days, at least a top 15-20 and an actual defender? No. He has no one even close to that good playing with him. Take John Wall off that team, and Ariza, and make Gortat play worse, and then you are close to what Favors has to work with.

I still rate Nene higher than Favors so I'm not sure you are winning any argument here, I just don't personally view it as a 5-point difference like many in the league have voted.

He can let up points b/c his help isn't there, while Nene has a good defender to play next to in Gortat.

Put them on the same exact team, and while they each have different strengths and weaknesses, I don't think their teams would be markedly better or worse just by replacing one with the other.

[Danny Longley]

I understand where you're getting at with the lack of help defense, but allowing PERs of 20+ - you can't blame that all on lack of help.

As for that hypothetical worse team, Nene did play with that team - I believe they called them the '12-'13 Wizards.

[Andrei Kirilenko]

82, dude is dominant when he is healthy

[Walt Frazier]

Semantics again but, dominant...really? Dominant? Dominant = 82, let's give LeBron a 167