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Post by Tracy McGrady on Mar 22, 2014 17:45:39 GMT
ATL Sends:
86 Al Horford $12,000,000 $12,000,000 $12,000,000
79 Jeff Teague $3,469,568
77 Chris Kaman $5,500,000 $6,105,000 $6,876,550 $7,632,971
77 Wilson Chandler $7,400,000 $7,400,000 $7,400,000
Outgoing: $28,369,568
Incoming: $5,373,538
New Total: $41,433,842
WAS Sends:
70 Elliot Williams $2,373,538 $3,436,882
69 Quincy Pondexter $3,000,000 $3,000,000 $3,000,000
1st Round Pick 2014 (WAS)
Outgoing: $5,373,538
Incoming: $28,369,568
New Total: $58,080,930
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Post by Tracy McGrady on Mar 22, 2014 17:47:51 GMT
I accept. My 1st Round Pick has been really sought after but this is definitely the best offer I got. Going to keep Horford and Teague, shopping around Kaman and Chandler. But I can build around Horford who is still a great player despite being injured IRL. Hard to see my 1st Round Pick go but I still get to keep Hardaway Jr and Porter who are my favorite young players on my team so far. Leonard and Jones III can be traded because I have Horford and if I keep Kaman around.
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Post by Alex English on Mar 22, 2014 17:51:33 GMT
Reject. This trade is absurdly bad.
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Post by Tracy McGrady on Mar 22, 2014 17:52:38 GMT
Reject. This trade is absurdly bad. For who? |
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Post by Alex English on Mar 22, 2014 18:00:10 GMT
Reject. This trade is absurdly bad. For who? For the Hawks. You are robbing him. He is trading away an All-Star quality post player and 3 other good players for one pick. You're record sucks right now at 6-18 but the Eastern conference is so bad you are just 3 games out of a playoff spot. After this trade you would be able to play this lineup. C - Chris Kaman PF - Al Horford SF - Wilson Chandler SG - JR Smith PG - Jeff Teague With such a small deficit to make up I would be shocked if you didn't make the playoffs. The Hawks have then traded away almost all of their talent for just a mid 1st round pick. |
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Post by Tracy McGrady on Mar 22, 2014 18:02:18 GMT
I believe ATL really values my pick right now, and he does not care for Chandler or Kaman. He wants cap space for this coming off-season which he is getting. I already have too many young players that bringing in another with my 2014 pick is not really going to help me.
Also I am going to be trading Chandler and Kaman away soon after this trade I believe. I don't plan on keeping either at all.
EDIT: You also have to remember, ATL still has his OWN 2014 pick. He's holding on to that so even though he is giving away good pieces, it's not I am guaranteed to go anywhere with that team. As it stands, I am still one of the lowest teams so my pick is high. I even asked to not take Chandler or Kaman, but he is adamant about that cap space. With his own pick, my own pick, and a lot of cap space to sign players this off-season, taking Chandler and Kaman off his hands is helping him in HIS overall goal.
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Post by James Kay on Mar 22, 2014 19:32:31 GMT
For the Hawks. You are robbing him. He is trading away an All-Star quality post player and 3 other good players for one pick. You're record sucks right now at 6-18 but the Eastern conference is so bad you are just 3 games out of a playoff spot. After this trade you would be able to play this lineup. C - Chris Kaman PF - Al Horford SF - Wilson Chandler SG - JR Smith PG - Jeff Teague With such a small deficit to make up I would be shocked if you didn't make the playoffs. The Hawks have then traded away almost all of their talent for just a mid 1st round pick. Agreed. Horford is worth way more than that. |
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Post by Ian Noble on Mar 22, 2014 20:06:21 GMT
I actually feel like this trade is bad for the Wizards, more than the Hawks. I'm going to wait to hear from Jay Z before I decide.
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Post by Deleted on Mar 22, 2014 20:18:43 GMT
The Wizards could make the playoffs with this trade...I am with English for the second time in recent trade memory! :0
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Post by Ian Noble on Mar 22, 2014 20:31:15 GMT
I think that's actually the problem with this trade, it turns the Wizards into a low-seed playoff team for the next 5 years, what's the point?
It devalues the pick for Atlanta, who we are yet to hear from (!), but let's them go all-out tank, which is fair enough in my opinion. Horford's nearly 28, so Washington's trading what would probably at least be 15 years of Julius Randle or Noah Vonleh for 5 years of Horford, I guess I would expect to give up that much for a high 1st in this draft.
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Post by Alex English on Mar 22, 2014 20:35:10 GMT
I actually feel like this trade is bad for the Wizards, more than the Hawks. I'm going to wait to hear from Jay Z before I decide. How? All he gives up is his first round pick. If he used that pick on a player, lets say Julius Randle for comparison, and he put up the exact same stats as Al Horford, would that be a successful pick? What are the odds Randle will be as good as Horford? What are the odds Randle, or whoever he drafts will be a bust? Al Horford is a sure thing, we know he is a very good player. Whoever is drafted with this pick is not a sure thing, even if they have a ton of potential. But the Wizards also get Jeff Teague, a starting quality point guard, Wilson Chandler, a starting quality guard/forward, and Chris Kaman, an aging but talented center. There would only be 5 or 6 teams in the east who could field a better starting lineup. Even if he trades Chandler and Kaman as he wants to he'll get something of value, a lot more than he's giving up. For the Hawks lets look at it from the perspective of his teams assets. In my opinion his most valuable assets are: Al Horford Jeff Teague Terrence Ross Jared Sullinger Wilson Chandler Tyler Zeller Greivis Vazquez Chris Kaman It is good he keep his young players but he is giving up 4 of his 8 most valuable players, and 4 of his 6 highest rated players. For all that he gets Washington's first round pick, which will significantly drop in value if this trade goes through. I'd bet on the Wizards to make the playoffs if he gets these players. |
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Larry Bird
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Starter
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Post by Larry Bird on Mar 22, 2014 21:06:37 GMT
If Atlanta is trading four of his starting players.
He atleast needs to get back some of the young promising players from Washington.
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Post by Bryan Colangelo on Mar 22, 2014 21:48:17 GMT
But remember Jeff Teauge is a free agent, so that devalues his value a lot. Really its Al Horford for the pick when it comes down to it. Atlanta may seem he's getting the bad side here but if you think about it, he made it clear with the trade i had with him that he wanted to rebuild. I am not knocking any new GM's here, but Jay Z is one of the GM's that signed up and had a vision for his team right away. He hasnt made any stupid trades since my trade was rejected. My trade got rejected a few weeks ago, so I'm sure his inbox was filled with offer and he weight his options on what he wanted to do. In our trade, he got cap space and a few picks. In this trade, he picks up Cap space, and gets a decent pick in the 2014. Who's to say Wizards make the playoffs, we cant tell. It's all assumptions we are making.
Jay Z still needs to accept, but from what i learn from dealing with him, he has a plan and he made it clear in my trade that i had with him, and i will put money on it he will make it clear again when he accepts. Sucks, because i wanted Al, but clearly this trade is better than my trade because he gets cap space, and a top 15 or top 10 pick in this year draft.
I will wait for Jay Z to explain before giving my final answer.
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Post by Andrei Kirilenko on Mar 22, 2014 22:08:34 GMT
Kaman and Chandler probably have negative value with their contracts.
Teague is expiring... so I would like to see Atlanta keep him since he has bird rights, but I guess that's a decision he has decided to make.
As for Horford for the pick, I agree that this is gonna make Washington better and therefore devalue the pick. Let's not overlook that the Wizards are taking on $22 mil! in salary here though.
I would have liked to see Atlanta get one more piece from Washington, but I don't think its bad enough to reject. The Hawks have an OK young core with Ross, Sullinger, Zeller, and a ton of cap space.
I accept
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Post by Ian Noble on Mar 22, 2014 23:21:54 GMT
Pending Jay Z's input, I accept.
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Post by Deleted on Mar 22, 2014 23:35:24 GMT
If this passes I will be chanting "T-mac, T-mac, T-mac!"
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Post by Jeremiah Hill on Mar 23, 2014 2:26:59 GMT
I think people need to realize the trade landscape before just rejecting this trade.
Nearly half of the first round is owned by 3 teams. Atlanta wants to join the tank party but he has only a very limited number of teams with their first round picks actually trying to improve where that 1st rounder is anything but 25-30ish. So if this is the absolute best deal he can get while trying to follow his plan then how can you decline the trade?
Post by Ian Noble on 5 hours ago
"I think that's actually the problem with this trade, it turns the Wizards into a low-seed playoff team for the next 5 years, what's the point?"
Well considering literally half the teams in the league are trying to be as terrible as possible I think it should be commended that someone wants to improve his team. He has PLENTY of young guys on his team that can be moved and Kaman and Chandler are both VERY moveable. He also has all his other draft picks which can be packaged in other trades in order to move his guys.
This argument can be made for Atlanta as well, if he can't move Horford then he's a low-seed playoff team for the next 5 years, what's the point for him?
I think the Wizards are getting guys that have value no matter what. It's what the real life Houston Rockets did and it worked out pretty good for them.
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Post by Walt Frazier on Mar 23, 2014 4:18:35 GMT
I'll start by saying I don't think I'm going to accept or reject just yet.
This is a fairly unique trade. The pieces these managers give up are more valuable if kept, than if traded.
Washington's pick is most likely a top 5-ish pick, could even get lucky in the lotto who knows. IF HE KEEPS IT. If he moves it for even one very good player, which Horford certainly is, then this pick loses a ton of value. 4 starting-caliber players, especially in the East right now, makes this pick's value plummet, especially this early in the season.
Jeff Teague is a very interesting young PG, and Atlanta holds his Bird Rights, so he has a lot of control over him. However, if Teague is moved, he's now an expiring interesting young player who may very well want to sign elsewhere. He loses a ton of value when traded.
I will also say with Chandler/Kaman...they have value for a team looking to win, which maybe Washington is, but they are also kind of negatives as they are both locked up for a biiiiit too much money and for one or two, too many, years.
Hard trade to value. I don't like that two of the 3 key pieces moved lose value as soon as the trade is completed.
Most of the time, we get trades that are pretty easy to evaluate. The pieces are what they are, like an Al Horford. He's a great, not-old player.
Sometimes, both teams improve in a trade, these are the best trades out there, obviously. Like if Golden State traded Michael Carter-Williams with Brandon Bass to get like a David Lee or better type Power Forward. And the team that had David Lee was looking to build more for the future. Great trade!
But, and I THINK this trade may be this other type...every once in a while a trade comes through that is kind of bad for both teams.
I think this trade can't truly be bad for Washington, honestly, as Horford is the one very consistent piece in the deal...but he doesn't get full value out of teague since he will need re-signed and/or may leave, and Atlanta doesn't get full value out of Washington's pick. Horford for a top 5 pick? I can kinda get behind it. Horford for pick 15-18? Ehhhhhhhh.
I'm kinda leaning on a reject but need to let it stew a little more.
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Post by Danny Longley on Mar 23, 2014 4:20:30 GMT
I can't believe that this trade is actually this close to passing. After rejecting a similar deal wherein Horford was being moved for two picks, you're actually good with having him shipped for one? Without even considering Teague, This is an All-Star, their best player and you're about to let him get dumped for a pick and cap space. Not even "picks", this case is "a pick", one pick. I don't care how much supposed "negative value" Kaman and Chandler carry, how many legitimate All-Star bigs do you see walking around in this league?
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Post by Alex English on Mar 23, 2014 4:39:26 GMT
I can't believe that this trade is actually this close to passing. After rejecting a similar deal wherein Horford was being moved for two picks, you're actually good with having him shipped for one? Without even considering Teague, This is an All-Star, their best player and you're about to let him get dumped for a pick and cap space. Not even "picks", this case is "a pick", one pick. I don't care how much supposed "negative value" Kaman and Chandler carry, how many legitimate All-Star bigs do you see walking around in this league? I couldn't agree more. I don't understand what's happening in this thread. We're about to accept a trade where a brand new GM is going to trade away 4 of his starters for one single pick. A pick that loses most of it's value because of said trade.  |
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Post by Walt Frazier on Mar 23, 2014 4:47:14 GMT
Think after talking through that trade with myself up above, I'm going to go with what I strongly hinted at.
Reject for me.
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Post by Danny Longley on Mar 23, 2014 5:19:34 GMT
Well hey, if having an All-Star Big is actually a bad thing right now, let me help you guys out - I'll take 'em of your hands.
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Post by Tracy McGrady on Mar 23, 2014 8:26:26 GMT
I can see the angle that you guys are approaching it. But that would be if YOU were in this situation and you had YOUR goals in mind. Jay-Z has his own plan, as do I. If this trade goes through, I wouldn't even be keeping Chandler and/or maybe Teague. Horford is injured in real life, so his value is stagnant right now. Who knows how he will be when he comes back next year? That is the risk I am taking. The reason I am trading my pick is because the WAS GM before me already drafted TONS of young talent.
ATL has his own goals in mind and he has expressed, through many messages and through other trades, that Chandler and Kaman are NOT in his plans. I am helping his relieve CAP space. I am taking the risk on Horford, he is taking a risk with FA/Draft (my pick)/and re signings of his own.
I did not even want Chandler or Kaman at all but like I said, they aren't in my plans either and one of them will probably be traded soon after if this trade gets passed. I still don't see how it is THAT lopsided honestly.
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Post by Jay Z on Mar 23, 2014 10:20:47 GMT
really sorry about the late response, generally work all day and get on late.
I accept this trade, and its really weird to sit here and have to devalue my own players because the perception here is that im throwing away four starters. Teague is a good player, and in some ways hes having the best year of his career, but this one is simply a gut call, was never planning to re-sign him, and it wasn't worth potentially stopping trade talks to try to squeeze every drop out of this trade.
Chandler and Kaman are NOT assets. There contracts are bloated and dont leave room to grow through free agency, and id have to push a 1st rounder just to get them off my team (and i have had such talks with a few team to move them).
Whether i trade Horford or not, my main opportunity to grow my team into a real contender is if Ross, Sullinger, or the Zeller twins turn into real NBA talent. So that to me already signifies some type of retooling/rebuilding and will probably waste next year, and maybe the year after depending on how quickly these players materialize. I cant build through FA because of being capped out due to Thornton, Chandler and Kaman combing to be almost 40% of my cap next year (thats insane).
So my plan is to tank this year and next year in hopes that some of these players evolve to the next level. My own two first rounder will retain great value for both years. Ill have The option to bring in a payer as soon as this off season if i so choose too (i wont unless a player falls through the cracks like Milsap did when Atlanta got him on a killer deal). 2016, great cap space, good - great players still on rookie contracts, full flexibility. Thats the plan.
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Post by Ian Noble on Mar 23, 2014 10:38:10 GMT
I'm going to re-affirm that I accept the deal.
Trade Committee members that are giving rejects are doing so because they feel the trade favours Washington too much but not only do I disagree with that, I also think that Jay Z has more of a plan in mind for his team than T-Mac. I'm really impressed by what he's just said in the post above this one.
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Post by Andrei Kirilenko on Mar 23, 2014 12:58:37 GMT
I believe it is 2-2 right now awaiting Colangelo's decision
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Post by Deleted on Mar 23, 2014 14:29:47 GMT
I'm going to re-affirm that I accept the deal. Trade Committee members that are giving rejects are doing so because they feel the trade favours Washington too much but not only do I disagree with that, I also think that Jay Z has more of a plan in mind for his team than T-Mac. I'm really impressed by what he's just said in the post above this one. Ian I am not personally attacking you, but you are being a hypocrite on this trade. Consistently, you talk about "letting GM's do what they want as long as they don't ruin their team" (IE: San Antonio.) You also place a premium on micromanaging young GM's. I think you are trying to make a point, something about Washington possibly screwing up if they don't "rebuilt traditional," but if Washington makes the playoffs this year then Atlanta basically gutted his team and that's a fact. We can play hypothetical all we want, and if you want to go there I don't think you really liked the moves I made after I traded Westbrook, but this trade needs to be rejected. Like English, Bird, King, Longley, and a few others, I cannot believe Bryan will decide whether this trade passes or not. |
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Post by Ian Noble on Mar 23, 2014 15:28:14 GMT
Vlade - of all of us on the trade committee, I think I'm pretty lenient when it comes to trades, and I'm pretty lenient in general, even when it's come to the Spurs.
Atlanta's a team that can go either way, to the top or the bottom. They've had a consistent plan in mind since they started; to rebuild. I'm ok with that and, like usual, I'll allow it!
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Post by Tracy McGrady on Mar 23, 2014 15:30:17 GMT
Kind of offended that you believe I don't have a plan Ian, but hopefully this trade passes through and it shakes up the league! I have a few more moves in mind so hopefully it works out, if not... I am in deep trouble. But I assure you, as much as Jay-Z has a plan in ATL, I have a plan with WAS. Trust me on that!  |
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Post by Bryan Colangelo on Mar 23, 2014 16:25:41 GMT
Vlade - I get why your mad, but if anyone understands whats going on its me. The past 5 trades iv made have been rejected, including the one for Al. Whats the difference between my trade and this? nothing really other than he gets a 2014 draft pick instead of a 2015 pick. If anything, I'm pissed off that my original trade did not get accepted along with the others and i should reject this trade due to spite. But I'm not going to do that since i practically accepted the same trade because i understand why Jay Z and T-Mac are doing this.
Jay Z get's his rebuild with still a young team, cap space and picks.
T-Mac gets a true PF to build around with a young team still.
That was the reason why i accepted my trade with Jay Z and it will be the same reason why i accept this trade here. I'm not going to sit here and be a hypocrite.
I accept.
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