|
|
Post by Tom Izzo on Feb 7, 2024 5:23:12 GMT
Current: 86
2023-2024 stats:
27.3 PPG
3.9 RPG
6.5 APG
0.9 SPG
48.1% FG (20 attempts)
41.3% 3PT (6.6 attempts)
83.5% FT
59.6% TS
Usage: 29.8
EPM: +4.7 (14th in the league - notably ahead of Curry, Harden, Tatum, Dame. In fact, the ONLY guards ahead of him are Halliburton, Donovan Mitchell, Luka)
By the way, defense is hard to measure, but for the EPM truthers, on defense, Brunson ranks ahead of:
- Halliburton
- Luka
- Jamal Murray
- LaMelo Ball
Just a piece of info showing he isn't absolutely terrible on defense. He's a small guard, so he isn't going to be incredible, but he's not some turnstile.
The Knicks are 33-18, only 0.5 games back of the 2nd seed in the East.
And Brunson made the All Star Game this year. Honestly, should be starting over Dame, but in any case, he made it.
The truth is, Brunson has been ascending for a long time. He has playoff success both on Dallas (while Luka was injured) and last year on the Knicks (R1 win against the Cavs, R2 loss to the Heat in 6).
He's the #1 option on a top 3 team in the East and has passed some of the leagues older guard stars, at least so far this season. It's time he's respected in D5 as such. With more playoff success, he could easily warrant a 90+, but for now:
Proposed: 89.44
|
|
|
|
Post by Steve Nash on Feb 7, 2024 13:03:29 GMT
88
|
|
|
|
Post by George Gervin on Feb 7, 2024 13:20:13 GMT
88
|
|
|
|
Post by Jared Montini on Feb 7, 2024 14:17:05 GMT
86.02
Insanely high FG,3PT, O aware. There is just a lot of categories in which he is very below average in. I still think he’s playing at a ridiculously elite level(looking like he’ll be atleast 2nd team all nba) but I also think he can be an absolute monster at the rating I suggested.
|
|
|
|
Post by Brian Scalabrine on Feb 7, 2024 14:28:11 GMT
88
|
|
|
|
Post by Walt Frazier on Feb 7, 2024 14:40:59 GMT
88
|
|
Dell Demps
 Memphis Grizzlies
Rookie
Posts: 158 
|
Post by Dell Demps on Feb 7, 2024 14:53:33 GMT
88
|
|
|
|
Post by Jerry West on Feb 7, 2024 15:37:02 GMT
My new rating system would give Brunson a 84.58, but my final vote is 87.4444444444444445 so Tom doesn't get upset.
|
|
|
|
Post by Tom Izzo on Feb 7, 2024 15:44:55 GMT
Not upset about the 88 votes, only doing a little digging.
Halliburton is a 91 with never making the playoffs. He's averaging 22.5/11.7/3.9 on 49/39/85
Halli's Def EPM is -1.5 compared to Brunson's -0.6.
I feel like these two players are closer than 88-91 upon further inspection. Not advocating for *higher* Brunson votes necessarily, just pointing it out. I wonder if Halli gets more respect via eye test because he's bigger and the Pacers play the second highest pace in the league compared to the Knicks in the bottom 5 (despite that league bottom pace, the Knicks rank #7 in offensive rating).
But maybe Brunson eclipses 90 if the Knicks make a good playoff run this year.
Anyway, just an observation. I know it won't impact votes at all but still interesting to me. Also, for what it's worth (and to most of you it's worth nothing, I know), 2k also has them 3 ratings apart.
|
|
|
|
Post by Arvydas Sabonis on Feb 7, 2024 15:53:59 GMT
88.5
Tom, just FYI on Hali. He is on minutes restriction since the coming back from hamstring injury, so averages are down from earlier. Plus going from 6.5 assists to 12ish is more massive jump than few extra points per game.
|
|
|
|
Post by Tom Izzo on Feb 7, 2024 15:58:55 GMT
6.5 -> 11.7 is a big bump, agreed.
No knock on Halli just a comparison. The Pacers will make the playoffs this year and he'll have his chance to do some damage.
|
|
|
|
Post by Brian Scalabrine on Feb 7, 2024 17:48:04 GMT
Haliburton might be the best offensive player in the NBA this year. His offensive advanced stats blow Brunson out of the water. Defensive advanced stats, while somewhat useful, aren't nearly as accurate.
It's not a good comparison imho and Haliburton should be rated much higher
|
|
Amare Stoudemire
 Sacramento Kings
Starter
Posts: 2,416
|
Post by Amare Stoudemire on Feb 7, 2024 18:09:46 GMT
89
|
|
|
|
Post by Tom Izzo on Feb 7, 2024 20:07:27 GMT
|
|
|
|
Post by Mark Price on Feb 7, 2024 22:13:23 GMT
There are way too many people in the 85-88 range that I don't feel like it truly captures who they are as players while the dispersion with the 90+ guys seems absurdly arbitrary:
85s:
Jru Holiday
Julius Randle
LaMelo Ball
CJ McCollum (yikes)
Brandon Ingram
Darius Garland
Mikal Bridges
86s:
Jalen Brunson
Kyrie Irving
Scottie Barnes
Jaren Jackson Jr.
Bradley Beal
87s:
Jamal Murray
Kristaps Porzingis
Trae Young
Anthony Edwards
DeMar DeRozan
Zach LaVine
Bam Adebayo
88s:
DeAaron Fox
Donovan Mitchell
Pascal Siakam
Zion Williamson (yikes)
Domantas Sabonis
Ja Morant
Jaylon Brown
89s:
None
He's definitely in the same tier as the guys in the 88 (minus Zion). Overall, I feel like we need a complete reset of the ratings because there's tiers don't make sense when you lay them out since the people who vote are constantly changing and each person has their own standard.
My vote: 88
My real vote: Reset the entire system because the ratings are broken
|
|
|
|
Post by Mark Price on Feb 7, 2024 22:18:15 GMT
Haliburton might be the best offensive player in the NBA this year. His offensive advanced stats blow Brunson out of the water. Defensive advanced stats, while somewhat useful, aren't nearly as accurate. It's not a good comparison imho and Haliburton should be rated much higher How much of what each does is dependent on their NBA context? Trying to compare individual metrics between someone on the Knicks and Pacers is just crazy different. The Pacers play no defense, have an incredibly fast pace, and play five out. Brunson is on a team with limited spacing, has two bigs (when healthy), and relies on Brunson's midrange shot making to carry them. I prefer Haliburton, but to say one is so much better than the other doesn't feel super accurate. And if your only argument is advanced stats (which I do rely on far too much) without mentioning the context, I don't think it's beneficial for these conversations. |
|
|
|
Post by Chauncey Billups on Feb 7, 2024 22:24:04 GMT
CJ McCollum seems fine at an 85. And Zion seems fine at an 88, or at least close. I think apart of the issue is that some of those 88s could absolutely be 90s+, I.e., Fox, Mitchell, and Morant.
People are afraid to break that 90+ rating for some reason, and put a lot of emphasis on team success rather than individual skill set.
|
|
|
|
Post by Mark Price on Feb 7, 2024 22:37:02 GMT
CJ McCollum seems fine at an 85. And Zion seems fine at an 88, or at least close. I think apart of the issue is that some of those 88s could absolutely be 90s+, I.e., Fox, Mitchell, and Morant. People are afraid to break that 90+ rating for some reason, and put a lot of emphasis on team success rather than individual skill set. There’s nothing wrong with Zion being an 88 on its own. But he’s not in the same class as the other guys there. So either he moves down or the others move up. The latter would be more accurate. But I think that’s where a lot of these issues are. It’s more prevalent with top players because they’re the ones who are truly separating from the majority of their peers. |
|
|
|
Post by Brian Scalabrine on Feb 7, 2024 22:37:41 GMT
Haliburton might be the best offensive player in the NBA this year. His offensive advanced stats blow Brunson out of the water. Defensive advanced stats, while somewhat useful, aren't nearly as accurate. It's not a good comparison imho and Haliburton should be rated much higher How much of what each does is dependent on their NBA context? Trying to compare individual metrics between someone on the Knicks and Pacers is just crazy different. The Pacers play no defense, have an incredibly fast pace, and play five out. Brunson is on a team with limited spacing, has two bigs (when healthy), and relies on Brunson's midrange shot making to carry them. I prefer Haliburton, but to say one is so much better than the other doesn't feel super accurate. And if your only argument is advanced stats (which I do rely on far too much) without mentioning the context, I don't think it's beneficial for these conversations. Fwiw I only use rate based stats so Haliburton doesn't get any advantage on Brunson because the pacers play fast and the Knicks play slow. I just used advanced stats as an objective measure but eye test I see Haliburton as the best offensive player in the NBA besides jokic. Brunson is terrific too but he's not anywhere near the level Haliburton is at offensively and when it comes to their defense I don't really care as much about guard defense. Fwiw I'd say the same about de'aaron fox I'm saying about Brunson. They're excellent players but not on Hali's level. |
|
|
|
Post by Chauncey Billups on Feb 7, 2024 22:41:25 GMT
CJ McCollum seems fine at an 85. And Zion seems fine at an 88, or at least close. I think apart of the issue is that some of those 88s could absolutely be 90s+, I.e., Fox, Mitchell, and Morant. People are afraid to break that 90+ rating for some reason, and put a lot of emphasis on team success rather than individual skill set. There’s nothing wrong with Zion being an 88 on its own. But he’s not in the same class as the other guys there. So either he moves down or the others move up. The latter would be more accurate. But I think that’s where a lot of these issues are. It’s more prevalent with top players because they’re the ones who are truly separating from the majority of their peers. I agree. I think we underrate a lot of top-tier players for fear of breaking that 90s threshold, for whatever reason, and I named at least 3. Could probably pick a few more in that 87 range. |
|
|
|
Post by George Gervin on Feb 7, 2024 22:44:54 GMT
There’s nothing wrong with Zion being an 88 on its own. But he’s not in the same class as the other guys there. So either he moves down or the others move up. The latter would be more accurate. But I think that’s where a lot of these issues are. It’s more prevalent with top players because they’re the ones who are truly separating from the majority of their peers. I agree. I think we underrate a lot of top-tier players for fear of breaking that 90s threshold, for whatever reason, and I named at least 3. Could probably pick a few more in that 87 range. I would also point out there is a build component too to some of these guys — for example, I think Bam as a two way guy is in that 88-89 range. But he functionally at his 87 build right now has a commensurate level of impact for me in sims, so I’m not gonna bother with a SW. Same could be said for Bridges and Ingram who are both pretty great builds at their ratings level. |
|
|
|
Post by Chauncey Billups on Feb 7, 2024 22:51:03 GMT
I agree. I think we underrate a lot of top-tier players for fear of breaking that 90s threshold, for whatever reason, and I named at least 3. Could probably pick a few more in that 87 range. I would also point out there is a build component too to some of these guys — for example, I think Bam as a two way guy is in that 88-89 range. But he functionally at his 87 build right now has a commensurate level of impact for me in sims, so I’m not gonna bother with a SW. Same could be said for Bridges and Ingram who are both pretty great builds at their ratings level. I agree there’s definitely a build component, and focusing on the overall number might not be the best approach. BUT, another part of my argument that I stated before, was that we tend to underrate guys based on team success, instead of individual skill set, which is how a lot of these guys that should break 90+ end up falling short. I’m not saying team success isn’t important, but maybe too heavily relied on when we are judging an individual player. |
|
|
|
Post by Brad Stevens on Feb 7, 2024 23:02:04 GMT
86.8
|
|
|
|
Post by Hanamichi Sakuragi on Feb 7, 2024 23:33:39 GMT
86.80
|
|
Sam Presti
 Oklahoma City Thunder
Rookie
Posts: 91
|
Post by Sam Presti on Feb 8, 2024 0:29:24 GMT
87.5
|
|
|
|
Post by James Kay on Feb 8, 2024 1:45:46 GMT
89
|
|
Larry Bird
 Indiana Pacers
Starter
Posts: 1,672
Mar 5, 2024 13:29:26 GMT
|
Post by Larry Bird on Feb 8, 2024 20:10:46 GMT
88
|
|
|
|
Post by Andrei Kirilenko on Feb 11, 2024 0:26:27 GMT
89
|
|
Sam Presti
Oklahoma City Thunder
Rookie
Posts: 91
|
Post by Sam Presti on Feb 11, 2024 0:39:55 GMT
89
|
|
|
|
Post by George Gervin on Feb 16, 2024 2:29:11 GMT
THREAD CLOSED.
New Rating = 88 (88.1)
|
|
Houston Rockets
Orlando Magic
San Antonio Spurs
Utah Jazz
New Orleans Pelicans
Minnesota Timberwolves
Portland Trailblazers
New York Knicks
LA Lakers
Detroit Pistons
Phoenix Suns
Cleveland Cavaliers
Charlotte Hornets
Brooklyn Nets
