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Post by Ian Noble on Apr 15, 2023 10:36:09 GMT
D5 Playoff Injury SystemThe goals of the injury system are to 1) properly reflect IRL NBA injury status; but also 2) not treat IRL playoff qualifying players differently than IRL non playoff qualifying players. Currently it's an advantage to own an injury-proof Lillard or Luka and a disadvantage to own a Playoff-competing Embiid, Giannis or Jokic and that's a bad dynamic. Also what we're seeing at the moment is players who are not injured, who have simply been shut down by their tanking teams IRL, hitting the D5 injury list. TL;DR: we're going to stop registering new IRL injuries from the last day of the IRL NBA regular season, even if they're legit injuries.
Some examples to clarify: Player A is injured 25 days from end of regular season. His IRL team is eliminated from the playoffs. This player is ineligible to play in the D5 postseason unless they are considered healed IRL. Player B is injured 25 days from the end of the Playoffs. His team makes the Playoffs IRL, and he returns to play in the first round, because the playoffs are important and he can play through the injury. This player can play in the D5 postseason. Player C is injured 20 days from end of the season. His team makes the playoffs but his injury is so substantial that he cannot return even though they make it to the Conference Finals. He is eligible to play in the D5 postseason. Thanks to James Kay and Andrei Kirilenko for composing this with me 
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Post by Ian Noble on Apr 15, 2023 10:36:19 GMT
Any questions and clarifications please post a reply here.
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Post by Jerry West on Apr 15, 2023 11:34:30 GMT
Any questions and clarifications please post a reply here. Player C is injured 20 days from end of the season. His team makes the playoffs but his injury is so substantial that he cannot return even though they make it to the Conference Finals. He is eligible to play in the D5 postseason. This part, by that point we are talking about a 40+ day injury that will probably prolong weeks or months until the off season. The player might have broken a leg. I don't understand why if the player missed 40+ days of games for his irl team, why would he be eligible to play on D5? It feels like if a player dies on the court during the playoffs, he is still immune from the d5 injury system, no matter what. |
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Post by George Gervin on Apr 15, 2023 12:14:06 GMT
Alright I’m gonna be that guy and ask the question:
Under this model, for the Player C example, would this mean Paul George is eligible to play for the Nets or CJ McCollum for the Grizzlies in light of the news on both of their injuries?
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Post by Jared Montini on Apr 15, 2023 12:29:40 GMT
Alright I’m gonna be that guy and ask the question: Under this model, for the Player C example, would this mean Paul George is eligible to play for the Nets or CJ McCollum for the Grizzlies in light of the news on both of their injuries? By the wording of player C they are def eligible right? |
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Post by George Gervin on Apr 15, 2023 12:47:26 GMT
Alright I’m gonna be that guy and ask the question: Under this model, for the Player C example, would this mean Paul George is eligible to play for the Nets or CJ McCollum for the Grizzlies in light of the news on both of their injuries? By the wording of player C they are def eligible right? That’s what I want to clarify — CJ’s recently reported injuries were a torn labrum, torn thumb ligament, and some other hand damage. But he played through it. PG has been back practicing but his injury wasn’t nearly as substantial as CJ’s. If I’m reading it correctly, both MEM and BKN should have those guys eligible for the D5 postseason |
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Monty Williams
Former Grizzlies GM
Rookie
Posts: 127
Oct 27, 2023 23:30:42 GMT
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Post by Monty Williams on Apr 15, 2023 13:11:34 GMT
By the wording of player C they are def eligible right? That’s what I want to clarify — CJ’s recently reported injuries were a torn labrum, torn thumb ligament, and some other hand damage. But he played through it. PG has been back practicing but his injury wasn’t nearly as substantial as CJ’s. If I’m reading it correctly, both MEM and BKN should have those guys eligible for the D5 postseason CJ finished out the season though? |
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Post by Andrei Kirilenko on Apr 15, 2023 13:19:35 GMT
The Regular Season ended on April 9th. If I am reading this correctly, we are saying that any new injuries that occurred after March 19th (21 days before April 9th) are not going to count.
What about injuries that occurred exactly on March 19th, though? It looks like the only player this applies to is Kyle Kuzma, who is listed on our source website as out on exactly March 19th. I think the way the code was working was really 3 weeks + 1 day, so is that still the case? And therefore a player need be listed as injured on or before March 18th to be listed out in D5?
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Post by George Gervin on Apr 15, 2023 13:23:34 GMT
That’s what I want to clarify — CJ’s recently reported injuries were a torn labrum, torn thumb ligament, and some other hand damage. But he played through it. PG has been back practicing but his injury wasn’t nearly as substantial as CJ’s. If I’m reading it correctly, both MEM and BKN should have those guys eligible for the D5 postseason CJ finished out the season though? He did but by all measures, those injuries are substantial. The shoulder one especially is probably a 6 months injury. But objectively, if this is the rule, that shouldn’t matter for his availability for you. He should be eligible for the D5 postseason |
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Monty Williams
Former Grizzlies GM
Rookie
Posts: 127
Oct 27, 2023 23:30:42 GMT
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Post by Monty Williams on Apr 15, 2023 14:19:45 GMT
CJ finished out the season though? He did but by all measures, those injuries are substantial. The shoulder one especially is probably a 6 months injury. But objectively, if this is the rule, that shouldn’t matter for his availability for you. He should be eligible for the D5 postseason Yeah this is pretty much my point, he played 75 games, and got through the play in, and was never declared injured, he wouldn’t really be relevant to this |
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Post by George Gervin on Apr 15, 2023 15:36:36 GMT
He did but by all measures, those injuries are substantial. The shoulder one especially is probably a 6 months injury. But objectively, if this is the rule, that shouldn’t matter for his availability for you. He should be eligible for the D5 postseason Yeah this is pretty much my point, he played 75 games, and got through the play in, and was never declared injured, he wouldn’t really be relevant to this Well I’d argue the Pelicans weren’t exactly forthright on his injury issues — no one would argue a torn labrum is something you “should” play through. Kind of feels like injury report manipulation. But my point is if CJ is eligible here — not disputing your points — with those kind of injuries, someone like PG should be |
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Post by Jared Montini on Apr 15, 2023 15:57:17 GMT
So just trying to get 100% clarification. Are all players immune from now until next season? If Jayson Tatum gets hit by a tractor trailer tomorrow, does he stay in the game?
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Post by James Kay on Apr 15, 2023 16:25:37 GMT
Any questions and clarifications please post a reply here. This part, by that point we are talking about a 40+ day injury that will probably prolong weeks or months until the off season. The player might have broken a leg. I don't understand why if the player missed 40+ days of games for his irl team, why would he be eligible to play on D5? It feels like if a player dies on the court during the playoffs, he is still immune from the d5 injury system, no matter what.
First, I think it is important to bear in mind Ian's point about treating IRL playoff qualifying players the same as IRL non-playoff qualifying players. When formulating a system of injury rules, this objective has to be balanced along with creating a system that most accurately reflects IRL injuries. To a certain extent, these objectives work against one another. Crafting a system that attempts to treat IRL playoff qualifying and IRL non-playoff qualifying players equally will necessarily come at a cost of accuracy. There are at least four IRL scenarios that engender disparate treatment for players that make the playoffs IRL compared to their non-qualifying counterparts: - A player is not injured, but his team sits him for the final 2-3 weeks of the season because they are tanking and don't want to risk injury. For example, Lillard this year.
- A player suffers an injury that he would have been able to return from for the post-season, but his team misses the post-season, and is marked "out-for-season." For example, a player on a tanking team suffers a typical 14 day injury with 7 days of season remaining.
- A player suffers any injury during the post-season, and is out for the remainder of the post-season. He is injured because his team made the playoffs.
- A player enters the post-season injured, but returns during the 2nd round. He is able to return because his team made the playoffs.
When constructing a system of rules that attempts to account for these scenarios, accuracy will suffer. Yet, crucially, if we can accept as a premise that a player in Scenario 1, like Lillard, should play, then we must also accept that any rule that creates an exception for him based on an objective standard of days "injured" will necessarily also catch other, potentially truly injured players, within its purview. That, however, is simply the cost of allowing Lillard to play based on an objective and fair set of rules. The same goes for scenarios 2 and 3. Yes, a player may become injured at the end of the regular season, or in the post-season, and by these proposed rules will not miss any D5 time. However, creating an objective and fair standard that treats playoff teams and non-qualifying teams equally demands that these injuries are disregarded for purposes of D5 injury status. As to scenario 4, this is a scenario where the goal of accuracy towards IRL injury status overcomes any fairness considerations. Yes, making the playoffs allows him to return where a non-playoff qualifying player would simply remain out in D5. However, it seems better to actually allow D5 players to play inaccurately than to keep them out inaccurately. At this point, I haven't come across another injury system that works better to effectuate the goals of reflecting IRL injuries as much as possible while also treating players equally regardless of their IRL team's circumstances. So, to answer your question, the reason why a player who dies on the court during the playoffs doesn't get taken out for D5 injury purposes is because his D5 team shouldn't suffer the consequences of his IRL team's playoff status. His D5 team shouldn't be rooting for him to miss the playoffs. The rules as constructed do their best to balance IRL accuracy and fairness, and if you have a better suggestion please put it forward. |
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Post by Arvydas Sabonis on Apr 15, 2023 18:58:49 GMT
Ok, first of all I'm sick and tired to hear the reasoning that it was an advantage currently to own players in non-playoffs teams. It's not! Players in non-playoff teams are getting rated across the board 2-3 rating points lower than players in playoff teams.
And yes, success should in some ways impact the rating, and it does already, as it's impossible to get 93+ ratings without a real playoff success. But there are many examples in slightly lower range where someone is rated around 90 and could be swapped easily to a 87-88 level player with same stats without irl team success changing. Or you could put them in a bottom feeder team without it miraculously making them a playoff contender (I'm not talking about MVP candidate level guys btw, but lower all-star or below). Some teams just don't have the supporting cast or organization to be successful (cough Wolves/Kings), and it should not be hold against them where they are drafted.
This is obviously another discussion for SW, but my point here is that it was already hugely favorable to own a player in a playoff team, and only potential drawback was the small risk that they might get a major injury during 4-20 extra games during playoffs. Any minor injury in playoffs would not take them out for long enough to hit the injury timer anyways as during playoffs people just play through minor stuff.
I think the tradeoff of having someone with better ratings, with only slightly increased risk of losing the player during playoffs was fair. With the new system it's becoming even more and more advantageous to own players in good teams, and this rule is making the situation worse.
But okay, if this is really the decision to not include serious injuries during playoffs or last 21 games of regular season I'm fine with it.
I don't like it as we could have easily kept this more flexible and discuss or vote whenever there is a case like Kawhi/PG/CJ.
I don't also like that it was now discussed only in staff section and I would have rather liked to have had chance to have league wide vote on few different options. But instead we had voice of few lobbying parties now we have "fair" system for everyone..lol
/rant over
CHANGE REQUEST
I do think that with these rules we need to absolutely change the injury timer from 21 to at least 30 days (if not for full season, for end of regular season at least). There were now multiple players for example in Charlotte and Portland that were shutdown for tanking reasons just around 3 week mark and with slightly different IRL schedule someone could be not available for D5 playoffs if they had 22-30 days before season end an extremely minor injury (level of injury that they would have played through in playoffs).
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Post by James Kay on Apr 15, 2023 20:12:16 GMT
In response to your points re: players being rated more highly for making the playoffs, I don’t think this makes much sense. Firstly, I don’t think there should be any sort of tradeoffs/balancing advantages between injury status and player ratings. They are completely unrelated and the discussions should be completely separate. But even in arguendo, these aren’t analogous situations. The players with SWs that take playoff success into account are receiving those weighted votes because GMs are arguing that their talent(rating) is what is causing their team to make or miss the playoffs. So their higher or lower ratings still stem from their talent – playoff seeding is introduced merely as an indicator of that talent. With injuries, the advantage/disadvantage flows the other way. Their injury status is impacted by their playoff status, not the other way around. In response to your points re: discussion in the staff section, I wouldn’t know. I’m not staff, and I don’t have access to that section. I just sent Ian a bunch of my thoughts and we had a very brief discussion on the matter - maybe 3-4 messages on Discord. I have no horse in this race, as far as I’m aware there’s no players on my team that might be impacted by any of these rules. I was just trying to help find the best solution, not lobby for any particular result. In response to your claim that we could have “easily kept this more flexible and discuss or vote,” I’m not sure I agree. I think most GMs want clear, objective rules – rather than ad hoc, subjective decisions based upon vague and shifting criteria. If you have suggestions for a better system, I think you should make them. Relatedly, I think I am in favor of your last point – changing the 21 day threshold to 30 days as we approach the end of the season. I have waffled on this, but I am now thinking at least a small addition might be necessary. 21 days is March 19, 2023. I don’t see any players from CHA that would benefit from that change, but Jerami Grant looks like he suffered a thigh contusion (bruise), and when they started tanking there was no reason for him to return – so he would have been out 28 days. I think 30 is the max, at some point there needs to be a line drawn, and 30 seems reasonable IMO. |
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Post by Ian Noble on Apr 16, 2023 12:03:36 GMT
So just trying to get 100% clarification. Are all players immune from now until next season? If Jayson Tatum gets hit by a tractor trailer tomorrow, does he stay in the game? Easy answer first: yes Tatum would stay in the sim. |
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Post by Ian Noble on Apr 16, 2023 12:23:02 GMT
Thanks James Kay you've answered better than I could have done. |
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Post by Arvydas Sabonis on Apr 16, 2023 12:31:43 GMT
In response to your points re: players being rated more highly for making the playoffs, I don’t think this makes much sense. Firstly, I don’t think there should be any sort of tradeoffs/balancing advantages between injury status and player ratings. They are completely unrelated and the discussions should be completely separate. But even in arguendo, these aren’t analogous situations. The players with SWs that take playoff success into account are receiving those weighted votes because GMs are arguing that their talent(rating) is what is causing their team to make or miss the playoffs. So their higher or lower ratings still stem from their talent – playoff seeding is introduced merely as an indicator of that talent. With injuries, the advantage/disadvantage flows the other way. Their injury status is impacted by their playoff status, not the other way around. In response to your points re: discussion in the staff section, I wouldn’t know. I’m not staff, and I don’t have access to that section. I just sent Ian a bunch of my thoughts and we had a very brief discussion on the matter - maybe 3-4 messages on Discord. I have no horse in this race, as far as I’m aware there’s no players on my team that might be impacted by any of these rules. I was just trying to help find the best solution, not lobby for any particular result. In response to your claim that we could have “easily kept this more flexible and discuss or vote,” I’m not sure I agree. I think most GMs want clear, objective rules – rather than ad hoc, subjective decisions based upon vague and shifting criteria. If you have suggestions for a better system, I think you should make them. Relatedly, I think I am in favor of your last point – changing the 21 day threshold to 30 days as we approach the end of the season. I have waffled on this, but I am now thinking at least a small addition might be necessary. 21 days is March 19, 2023. I don’t see any players from CHA that would benefit from that change, but Jerami Grant looks like he suffered a thigh contusion (bruise), and when they started tanking there was no reason for him to return – so he would have been out 28 days. I think 30 is the max, at some point there needs to be a line drawn, and 30 seems reasonable IMO. The discussion about the ratings is indeed separate, but if claims are made that owning non-playoff is somehow so advantageous the whole picture should be considered and not just claim that a big unfairness is now fixed with this new injury list rule and all is well. My view is that owning playoff players was already more advantageous and this makes rich teams richer, but maybe that is just me. Not gonna try to convince anyone otherwise if you don't see it
To be clear James, I didn't claim you were somehow impartial here, but I'm saying the lobbying was clearly from Josh as he had a agenda to make this rule exactly as it's now to prevent PG being placed in IR.
I do find it weird to decide for this as reading most of the previous discussions in discord or the forums, my feeling was that majority of GMs would have supported a system where serious injuries late in the season or playoffs should count.
And again, I'm fine with the system even if I don't agree on it.
I did indeed make a suggestion in one of the previous threads for league wide vote for the 4-5 gray area injury cases that we might have per year around playoff time. As there was no one commenting pro or against it, I'm not saying that would be the best way either. Probably a direct democracy where voting actual impacts something is too strange concept for Americans of these days lol 
My point regarding the days was indeed just to cover for future, not specifically for this year. There were many cases where someone was shutdown just few days after the limit, and by sticking to 21 days there could be easily a case in few years when some big player is shutdown for sprained pinky 23 days before the seasons end and will be missing D5 playoffs, even if some other players with ACL tear might be playing. It's just to avoid that discussion down the line.
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