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Post by Tom Izzo on Aug 31, 2020 18:04:54 GMT
Well I'm personally not going to give them much credence. Murray is hot, for example, but he also had two games scoring less than 20 points in this exact same series.
Bubble games have inflated stats and I don't want to overreact from a couple of games, let alone games within the bubble
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Amare Stoudemire
Sacramento Kings
Starter
Posts: 2,416
Apr 14, 2024 11:04:23 GMT
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Post by Amare Stoudemire on Sept 2, 2020 10:28:38 GMT
Playoff games and bubble games should 100% count toward a stock watch. We should however temper the hype. Mitchell and Murray have both warranted increases but it doesn’t need to be a huge jump. No they absolutely should NOT! Their are players missing, defenses are playing soft, and playoff stock watches have always been suspect even before this crazy bubble season! I won't be voting if your basing some ratings off this bubble play!
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Post by Jerry West on Sept 2, 2020 11:09:05 GMT
Honestly I disagree that defenses are being soft, I would argue the opposite, except for the Magic.
That being said I'm not sure how much we should take the bubble into account, players are under different circumstances. Believe or not crowds are a big part of the game and influence how players play. Also we had multiple players state how its easier to find a rhythm without the crowd in the background of the rim.
Here's proof how even the smallest details affect players: https://www.reddit.com/r/nba/comments/6c62u8/oc_ryan_andersons_shooting_struggles_at_home_a/
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Post by Ian Noble on Sept 2, 2020 12:21:18 GMT
Are bubble player performances that different from usual NBA player performances? It's not like Tacko Fall has become Joel Embiid...
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Post by Jerry West on Sept 2, 2020 12:37:29 GMT
Are bubble player performances that different from usual NBA player performances? It's not like Tacko Fall has become Joel Embiid... TJ Warren became Michael Jordan for 5 games and the Suns became the 96 Bulls
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Amare Stoudemire
Sacramento Kings
Starter
Posts: 2,416
Apr 14, 2024 11:04:23 GMT
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Post by Amare Stoudemire on Sept 2, 2020 12:40:54 GMT
Are bubble player performances that different from usual NBA player performances? It's not like Tacko Fall has become Joel Embiid... Yes they most certainly are! Players scoring 50+ In multiple games, teams scoring 150+ etc According to these bubble playoffs we now have about 5-7 new michael jordans LMAO These should absolutely not be SW Not to mention the fact that travel has been taken out of the equation as well which I know for a certain would make a HUGE difference!
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Post by George Gervin on Sept 2, 2020 12:50:50 GMT
I think completely discounting bubble games is a mistake— by that token, not only should the last eight games of this season plus the playoffs be made irrelevant for Stockwatches, but in all likelihood next season as well as the League is discussing three bubbles (Orlando, Dallas, Vegas) to do next season in spurts due to COVID.
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Post by Jared Montini on Sept 2, 2020 13:08:52 GMT
Jeremy Lin did almost the same thing as TJ Warren in New York in front of a ton of people at MSG. Playoff games>Regular season games in terms of pure value. Playoffs are a small sample so you can’t raise a dude a ton if he was shit during the regular season. But the playoffs regardless of the bubble is where the most defense is being played thus should be taken into account. If someone puts a SW up on a player I will vote 100% as will many others. Bubble stats are better than voting on ratings because of age(Amare
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Amare Stoudemire
Sacramento Kings
Starter
Posts: 2,416
Apr 14, 2024 11:04:23 GMT
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Post by Amare Stoudemire on Sept 2, 2020 13:42:33 GMT
Jeremy Lin did almost the same thing as TJ Warren in New York in front of a ton of people at MSG. Playoff games>Regular season games in terms of pure value. Playoffs are a small sample so you can’t raise a dude a ton if he was shit during the regular season. But the playoffs regardless of the bubble is where the most defense is being played thus should be taken into account. If someone puts a SW up on a player I will vote 100% as will many others. Bubble stats are better than voting on ratings because of age(Amare Ok than, Marcus Smart SW coming up! He did hit 5 straight huge 3s yesterday JS 😉
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Amare Stoudemire
Sacramento Kings
Starter
Posts: 2,416
Apr 14, 2024 11:04:23 GMT
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Post by Amare Stoudemire on Sept 2, 2020 13:46:58 GMT
Jeremy Lin did almost the same thing as TJ Warren in New York in front of a ton of people at MSG. Playoff games>Regular season games in terms of pure value. Playoffs are a small sample so you can’t raise a dude a ton if he was shit during the regular season. But the playoffs regardless of the bubble is where the most defense is being played thus should be taken into account. If someone puts a SW up on a player I will vote 100% as will many others. Bubble stats are better than voting on ratings because of age(Amare Ok than, Marcus Smart SW coming up! He did hit 5 straight huge 3s yesterday JS 😉 Also then does that mean we lower PG13 since he's been God awful so far in the bubble relative to his D5 rating and overall real life capability
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Tim Duncan
Former Jazz GM
Sophomore
Posts: 482
Mar 9, 2022 22:04:51 GMT
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Post by Tim Duncan on Sept 2, 2020 14:06:41 GMT
Jeremy Lin did almost the same thing as TJ Warren in New York in front of a ton of people at MSG. Playoff games>Regular season games in terms of pure value. Playoffs are a small sample so you can’t raise a dude a ton if he was shit during the regular season. But the playoffs regardless of the bubble is where the most defense is being played thus should be taken into account. If someone puts a SW up on a player I will vote 100% as will many others. Bubble stats are better than voting on ratings because of age(Amare Ok than, Marcus Smart SW coming up! He did hit 5 straight huge 3s yesterday JS 😉 Everyone who wants to include bubble games in a SW is just saying that treat the bubble games like normal games.We would not have stockwatched a player over 1 game or 10 games normally and we won't do that for the bubble either but we will definitely consider the stats of these 10 games in addition to other games to form a substantial sample size for a SW
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Post by Jared Montini on Sept 2, 2020 14:26:53 GMT
Bro I can’t with this dude lol
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Post by Andrei Kirilenko on Sept 2, 2020 16:24:19 GMT
This is dumb, obviously we should take into account bubble play, and obviously we should also not base ratings 100% entirely on that. We can't say that Murray is a regular 40ppg scorer now, but if Ian wants to make an argument that his last few months of regular season + bubble deserves a higher rating, then why not? These games do count, after all.
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Post by Chauncey Billups on Sept 3, 2020 8:53:08 GMT
This is dumb. These games do count, after all. This
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Post by Walt Frazier on Sept 3, 2020 18:20:38 GMT
We're having a normal-ish discussion here. When it gets to the actual Stockwatch thread, things tend to get a little more unhinged. Maybe we've matured past that though. I hope we have!
I think these games count, I just get hesitant when someone leans HEAVILY on these outlier / weird games (even the regular playoffs are a different animal. Different doesn't mean less-important either, but, worth monitoring that a 4-7 game matchup can make a player kind of look better than he seemed to be over the previous 82 games).
That's all. Just want to go in with some caution, I guess.
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Post by Walt Frazier on Sept 3, 2020 18:23:02 GMT
That said: LUGUENTZ DORT 30pts, 4reb, 1ast, 6/12 from 3, 10/21 overall, and 4/6 FT. Added a Block. And this: Dort broke LeBron James' record for most points in a Game 7 by a player age 21 or younger.
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Post by George Gervin on Sept 3, 2020 19:13:16 GMT
That said: LUGUENTZ DORT 30pts, 4reb, 1ast, 6/12 from 3, 10/21 overall, and 4/6 FT. Added a Block. And this: Dort broke LeBron James' record for most points in a Game 7 by a player age 21 or younger. I was really hoping Dort was going to crush Harden’s spirit, Mortal Kombat Style, after locking him up for much of the series and then having a huge Game 7 when Harden historically shrinks.
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Post by Ian Noble on Sept 4, 2020 8:22:03 GMT
I just get hesitant when someone leans HEAVILY on these outlier / weird games You're telling me Jamal Murray is not going to be rated 99?
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Post by Reggie Miller on Sept 5, 2020 1:28:29 GMT
Weighing on my thoughts on the discussion that I have missed.
Being that I was born in the early 1980s, I appreciate high-scoring games as that was my first exposure to the NBA and in basketball overall. I would like to opine that the 1990s and 2000s are the outliers in this case, although statistically, pre-1980s basketball isn't far off from the two latter eras.
Yes, I am aware there is stat inflation right now. But because we are comparing late 2010s/2020s pace to 1990s, 2000s even - a time when the only teams that have embraced the present-day style of play are the Phoenix Suns and Dallas Mavericks. But if you go back a decade earlier, 2020 stats are no different from 1980 boxscores.
I was going to make an argument using Kareem as an example, but apparently, he played 82-game seasons his entire career. Next best examples then are Wilt and Russell, Bill not Westebrook. Granted there won't be much uptick in Wilt's totals or averages, but imagine how much more Russell could do with a full complement of games. Or Bob Cousy. Or the rest of the eight-peat Celtics. Then again, no one plays a full 82-game schedule anymore except if you're a role player off-the-bench, so lolz
That said, just because no one aside from Oscar Robertson was able to average a triple-double from that time period doesn't mean we should discount present-day achievements. Just because Jerry West didn't have the benefit of having a three-point line shouldn't make today's three-pointer-happy shooters lesser players.
Again, we're comparing today's player's game-day performances to peak Jordan/Bulls that were playing in a much slower pace in the 1990s. I'm guessing if you do some complex math and adjust stats according to pace, you might see there's not much difference from stats during MJ's to today.
As an aside, I would like to imagine if my man Reggie Miller played in today's style, he'll be giving Steph and Klay a run for their money on those three-pointers made season totals records.
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Post by Reggie Miller on Sept 5, 2020 2:00:38 GMT
Creating a separate post so that what I'll say hereon won't invalidate what I wrote above. Time for a HOT TAKE:
Ranking my favorite NBA decades: 1. 2010s - nothing like living in the now. 2. 1980s - if I use the Beatles as a barometer for my music taste, then this decade is my benchmark for anything NBA. 3. 1990s - I can't argue this period has some of the bast basketball talent overall, but I don't fawn this era as much as most people do. Nevertheless, some of my best memories are from this decade (eg, 8 in 8.9. 1998 ECF G4). 4. 2000s - this is just a weird decade. Rules changes that took some time for teams and coaches to adjust, integrate, and exploit; highlight footage from this time didn't age well; etc. I guess we just got spoiled with 720, 4K, and HD. An argument can be made with the parity and the different philosophies employed at that time (iso vs bully ball vs seven seconds or less), but I'm not a fan of "dump the ball to Shaq" and "give Iverson the ball and get out of the way", so there's that. Besides, the stars that we associate with the 2000s are either holdovers from the 1990s or played well beyond (and played better) to the 2010s.
Tha said, I would like to think the 2000s the same I think of the 1970s. The latter decade is a chronological blind spot for me. As with music and with the NBA, anything 1970s I associate more either with the 1960s (Wilt the Stilt, Alcindor/Jabbar, Led Zep, The Rolling Stones, Eagles) or the 1980s (again Kareem, Dr J and other ABA guys that did well post-merge, again Eagles, The Knack, Queen, Bowie, punk and post-punk/new wave). If you ask me what's the first thing that comes to mind about the 1970s, here's what I'll say: ABA, Lakers-era fat Wilt, disco, and The Carpenters.
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Post by Reggie Miller on Sept 5, 2020 2:07:55 GMT
As for how much weight should be given to bubble games, just don't fall into recency bias. Maybe unless bubble games become the new normal, by then, we should adjust accordingly.
Going back to what I was saying, many a stock watch has borne a distorted rating because someone had a career playoff only to fall back to earth come "October". Also, Devin Booker. Just because he scored 60 points in a single game doesn't make him the next Kobe Bryant.
Don't buy into the superlatives is all I'm saying. Yes, it's tempting to OP Luka, Murray, and even Warren. But it's the league that would suffer if they become 40-point double-double/triple-double machines in-sim.
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Post by Ian Noble on Sept 9, 2020 8:20:32 GMT
Ben Simmons, first team all defense
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Post by Jerry West on Sept 10, 2020 6:34:14 GMT
Lowry still the most disrespected player in d5
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Post by Jerry West on Sept 15, 2020 22:05:18 GMT
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Post by Ian Noble on Sept 16, 2020 7:29:52 GMT
Give this man a boost Playoffs: 27/5/6.3 on 50/49/91
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Post by George Gervin on Sept 16, 2020 13:40:19 GMT
Those Heat guys need to be flipped— and the playoffs are bearing that out in Herro is part of the closing 5 whereas Nunn has been losing minutes
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Post by George Gervin on Sept 16, 2020 23:20:05 GMT
Doncic becoming the 5th player in NBA history to make an All NBA First team at age 21 or younger, joining LeBron, KD, Tim Duncan, and Rick Barry. Cherry on top of an absolutely bonkers second season.
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Post by Jeremiah Hill on Sept 16, 2020 23:46:59 GMT
Jokic + Murray > Leonard + George
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Post by Reggie Miller on Sept 17, 2020 1:43:19 GMT
Doncic becoming the 5th player in NBA history to make an All NBA First team at age 21 or younger, joining LeBron, KD, Tim Duncan, and Rick Barry. Cherry on top of an absolutely bonkers second season. Since this is media voted and this award is for overall consistent excellence, this should be a counter that Luka achieved this despite having hyperinflated stats, whether it's due to being in the bubble or because of the current pace of the game.
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Post by Jeremiah Hill on Sept 18, 2020 0:06:09 GMT
Doncic becoming the 5th player in NBA history to make an All NBA First team at age 21 or younger, joining LeBron, KD, Tim Duncan, and Rick Barry. Cherry on top of an absolutely bonkers second season. Since this is media voted and this award is for overall consistent excellence, this should be a counter that Luka achieved this despite having hyperinflated stats, whether it's due to being in the bubble or because of the current pace of the game. I think he could have made it via just slightly improving on last year tbh.
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