Ben Simmons

[Ian Noble]

Current: 85
Proposed: it's up to you guys

I know most of you wont even read all this, but I would urge you to give it some thought before rating. Obviously Ben still can't hit a barn door with a shotgun when shooting but he has maintained, actually improved, upon a historically awesome rookie season. This year he got his first All Star selection and even with star players like Jimmy Butler and Tobias Harris joining the Sixers his stats have only kept improving and he's seen an even greater share of the ball.


Simmons's stats historically:

As soon as Ben entered the league he put up historic stats and has continued to do so since his last rating boost a year ago:


It's Simmons's 2nd year in the league and the only other guys to post these numbers twice or more are:

Oscar Robertson
Lebron James
Russell Westbrook
Wilt Chamberlain
Magic Johnson
Larry Bird
Fat Lever
Jason Kidd
Draymond Green

Simmons's year-to-year improvement:

Simmons has gradually improved across-the-board after his historic rookie season:

2017/18: 15.8ppg / 8.1rpg / 8.2apg on 55%/0%/56%
2018/19: 17.0ppg / 9.2rpg / 7.9apg on 57%/0%/60%

Although the really impressive thing is just continuing to perform at such a high level.

Efficiency

My boy can't shoot 3s - so he doesn't! And that gives him absolutely elite efficiency for a guard:

56.5 FG% (14th in NBA, 2nd of non-big-men)

Comparison: Giannis = 57.9 FG% (10th in NBA, 1st of non-big-men)

2019 Triple-Double Leaders & Their D5 Ratings

Looking at the D5 Ratings of real-life NBA Triple-Double Leaders shows that Ben belongs in elite company but is still relatively underrated:

96 Russell Westbrook: 25
90 Nikola Jokic: 12
85 Ben Simmons: 10
97 James Harden: 6
98 LeBron James: 6
95 Giannis Antetokounmpo: 5

Philly is not just Embiid

Whilst Embiid was out with a facial fracture to end last season The Fresh Prince filled the void and Philly went on a 16 game win streak to end the season. During this time Simmo almost averaged a triple double with 14.1ppg / 9.8rpg / 10.3apg with a +/- 13.9!

Player Rating In Context (ESPN Top 25 Under 25)

Seems like there's a big drop off when this chart reaches Simmons. I suppose KAT and Jokic have been playing a year longer than him and that's why they're so much higher, but clearly he's just as much of a player as they are.

95 Giannis Antetokounmpo (2013)
93 Joel Embiid (2014)
90 Nikola Jokic (2014)
89 Karl-Anthony Towns (2015)
85 Ben Simmons (2016)
83 Luka Doncic (2018)
81 Donovan Mitchell (2017) - seriously Jeremiah this guy needs a thread soon
82 Jayson Tatum (2017)
81 De'Aaron Fox (2017)
85 Devin Booker (2015)
87 Kristaps Porzingis (2015)

Conclusion
I'm going to leave it there, I think it's pretty obvious the elite company that Simmons keeps. Barber's already pointed out to me why Simmons sucks and needs decreasing using advanced stats but I don't really pay so much attention to them, maybe I should. We've got a 22 year old kid who looks like Magic Johnson 2.0, can't shoot, a bit turnover prone but one of the best passers in the world with excellent interior and perimeter defense, possibly the most switchable defender in the league, super efficient scorer and, in my opinion, an underrated leader with excellent rebounding on one of the best teams in the league. I feel like he is to Lebron what Kobe was to Jordan.

[Jared Montini]

88

[Charles Barkley]

First:

It has to be assumed that his rookie season statistics are completely accounted for, thus his "historic" rookie season does not matter for the purposes of this thread. If people think they are not accounted for, then we aren't doing something right in the Stock Watch. We need to understand that after a rating change, what happened that got them there is totally zero'd out so to speak. For example, when a player hits free agency the first time, or receives his extension, that is the culmination of all the years prior paying off and going forward, those years are essentially non-material for purposes of determining his salary. Ben Simmons "historic" rookie season, therefore, should not matter here.

Second:

ESPN's Top 25 Under 25 is an opinion article and should not be given material credit when looking at Simmons' actual, quantifiable stats. Relating a writer's opinion to our rankings is not right. Our rankings may be based on our collective opinions about a player, those opinions should be or are derived from the stats the player posts whereas ESPN's rankings are just that, rankings. And rankings are usually opinion based especially considering there's no level-playing field metric used that says definitively Ben Simmons is better than Donovan Mitchell. Further, when looking at those guys, I would definitely say that I'd rather have everyone else lsited there than Ben Simmons besides Foxx.

Third:

Ben Simmons does not shoot threes. Because he elects not to shoot threes, that's 99 skill points on the table to not be had, or ~ 6 OVR points. While this may make him efficient, it also shows that as the game continues to evolve, Ben Simmons elects to sit idle as time passes him bye.

Fourth:

Most of the guys listed with averages of 7 or more assists and 7 or more rebounds all had higher scoring averages, and shot threes, and/or played defense whereas Simmons scores only 17 a game.

In short, don't be misled by the fancy images and graphics, it is just window dressing.

86.

[Kareem Abdul-Jabbar]

85 ^^

[Jeremiah Hill]

I mean if he was even average at 3's he would be over 20ppg and we'd have him at 90-91 already.

Now idk if this matters because it is a negligible difference but he took a small step back on defense likely due to scheme/personal reasons at least in counting defense style stats and Embiid taking on much more offensively he might take a play off or two on help D.

If we want to argue him up a bit to account for his decent changes to efficiency and such I'm OK with it but just like Charles said, he loses so much in OVR by flat out just never shooting 3s.

I think 86 is fair.

Edit: As far as Mitchell goes he's had slight increases in some things but even with a higher pt count his efficiency (though rebounded somewhat since his really bad start) is down enough I think he's right where he needs to be. He's like Zach Levine rn almost. 

[Ian Noble]

FYI guys - Draymond Green was rated an 88 and every one of his seasons exist at the far lower end of this graphic.

Mar 7, 2019 1:03:20 GMT Charles Barkley said:

In short, don't be misled by the fancy images and graphics, it is just window dressing.

It's meant to be informative and I put a shitload of work into it, but ok...

[Andrei Kirilenko]

This is a weird stockwatch Ian you compare him to other players but don't really talk about Simmons himself

[Ian Noble]

Mar 7, 2019 8:41:49 GMT Andrei Kirilenko said:

This is a weird stockwatch Ian you compare him to other players but don't really talk about Simmons himself

I guess I'm not very good at this writing-an-essay-for-a-ratings-boost thing.

These responses have really left me perplexed though. Even NBA 2k19 rated Simmons an 88 back in September/October, I would've thought that was a fair objective indicator and I was hoping for slightly better since he's kept up his performance for much longer now.

¯\_(ツ)_/¯

[Andrei Kirilenko]

I've been looking at the stats this morning and I am going to vote 87. I'm actually not sure how some of you are justifying any votes lower than that. Simmons is almost averaging a triple double and doing so very efficiently.

The one negative I can find is his on/off. The 76ers are much better rebounding with Simmons on the floor, but worse at just about everything else. In fact, the 76ers take a net rating hit of -5.4 when Simmons steps onto the floor. To compare this to some teammates:

On/Off:
Simmons -5.4
Embiid +9.8
Butler +6.8
Redick +6.5


Despite that, the rest of his stats are quite good and the 76ers are still positive overall when he plays (just a lot more positive when he doesn't play). I think his rebounding in D5 probably needs an increase, and maybe his scoring needs to go up a bit overall.

[Ian Noble]

Mar 7, 2019 4:45:24 GMT Jeremiah Hill said:

I mean if he was even average at 3's he would be over 20ppg and we'd have him at 90-91 already

Nikola Jokic doesn't play defense. That's literally half the entire game. He's rated 90.

[Ian Noble]

Mar 7, 2019 1:03:20 GMT Charles Barkley said:

Third:

Ben Simmons does not shoot threes. Because he elects not to shoot threes, that's 99 skill points on the table to not be had, or ~ 6 OVR points. While this may make him efficient, it also shows that as the game continues to evolve, Ben Simmons elects to sit idle as time passes him bye.

Giannis can't shoot 3s either and you rated him 98. Better than peak Kobe Bryant.



I think I should retire from the stock watch, this is infuriating.

[George Gervin]

I think Simmons would be a slam dunk 90-92 rated player if he wasn’t so stubborn about shooting the basketball— I get that he feels it’s not an efficient or good shot for him to take, but he had his whole original rookie year plus two offseasons to start crafting that part of his game. It makes me wonder what his mental makeup is that he is either refusing to work on that part of his game or is so arrogant that he can just keep getting to the hole he feels he doesn’t need a jumper. That Celtics series where they neutralized him should’ve forced him to develop a jumper.

All that being said, this guy is a generational prospect, and it’s impossible to ignore the efficiency aspect of his game and what he’s putting up at 6’10”

I’m voting for an 88

[Jerry West]

I mean Simmons is definitely a top 25 player but I don't think he is close in terms of contribution to the bunch in the Top 10.

87

[Amare Stoudemire]

87

[Walt Frazier]

Ftr Re: Draymond - it took quite a while and many threads to get him there.

I'll go 89 on Simmons. We've got to account for a LOT of categories here that he's very good at, including his athleticism (which is 4 entire 99-point categories, ftr, where he'll be pretty high on all of them which is unusual).

Even if he never develops a jumper I can see him in the 90s next year.

[Kevin Hollis]

86.4 - could beat him in a shooting contest. No dunking or layups allowed as I am white. 

[Jeremiah Hill]

Mar 7, 2019 15:11:15 GMT Kevin Hollis said:

87 - could beat him in a shooting contest. No dunking or layups allowed as I am white. 

And 5'10"

[James Kay]

Mar 7, 2019 11:35:43 GMT Ian Noble said:

Mar 7, 2019 1:03:20 GMT Charles Barkley said:

Third:

Ben Simmons does not shoot threes. Because he elects not to shoot threes, that's 99 skill points on the table to not be had, or ~ 6 OVR points. While this may make him efficient, it also shows that as the game continues to evolve, Ben Simmons elects to sit idle as time passes him bye.

Giannis can't shoot 3s either and you rated him 98. Better than peak Kobe Bryant.



I think I should retire from the stock watch, this is infuriating.

Or just stop being so incredibly biased lmao.

Giannis at least does shoot threes. Ben so far has shown as much three point potential as Deandre Jordan. Also Giannis 3 point shot is coming around very quickly - Look at his 3P% by month. . And he's shooting 39% since the beginning of February.

Mar 7, 2019 11:33:44 GMT Ian Noble said:

Nikola Jokic doesn't play defense. That's literally half the entire game. He's rated 90.

Well first of all, defense isn't half the rating points. Second of all, Jokic plays defense, and isn't that bad at it... Nuggets are a top 10 defense in the NBA and Jokic is tied for the best defensive rating on the team. But you'll probably say its because of Jamal Murray that the Nuggets are the 2nd seed in the West.



I'll go 88.5, largely based on Walt's rating because I think he has a better grasp on how to create and account for the weird skillset that Simmons presents. But I think his on/off numbers are puzzling and I thought he'd have better defensive numbers/stats because he does appear to be a very switchable and capable defender.

[Jeremiah Hill]

Mar 7, 2019 11:33:44 GMT Ian Noble said:

Mar 7, 2019 4:45:24 GMT Jeremiah Hill said:

I mean if he was even average at 3's he would be over 20ppg and we'd have him at 90-91 already

Nikola Jokic doesn't play defense. That's literally half the entire game. He's rated 90.

Didn't see this. Jokic is a top 20 defender statistically. He started out strong but is ending the same. Strong.

[Tim Duncan]

87

Simmons is a great playmaker and good defender
However he cannot shoot at all which stops me from rating him higher
If he gets an average mid range and 3 pt shot while improving his free throws he will be above 90 for sure

[Ian Noble]

Mar 7, 2019 21:08:58 GMT James Kay said:

Mar 7, 2019 11:35:43 GMT Ian Noble said:

Giannis can't shoot 3s either and you rated him 98. Better than peak Kobe Bryant.



I think I should retire from the stock watch, this is infuriating.

Or just stop being so incredibly biased lmao.

Giannis at least does shoot threes. Ben so far has shown as much three point potential as Deandre Jordan. Also Giannis 3 point shot is coming around very quickly - Look at his 3P% by month.. And he's shooting 39% since the beginning of February.

Mar 7, 2019 11:33:44 GMT Ian Noble said:

Nikola Jokic doesn't play defense. That's literally half the entire game. He's rated 90.

Well first of all, defense isn't half the rating points. Second of all, Jokic plays defense, and isn't that bad at it... Nuggets are a top 10 defense in the NBA and Jokic is tied for the best defensive rating on the team. But you'll probably say its because of Jamal Murray that the Nuggets are the 2nd seed in the West.



I'll go 88.5, largely based on Walt's rating because I think he has a better grasp on how to create and account for the weird skillset that Simmons presents. But I think his on/off numbers are puzzling and I thought he'd have better defensive numbers/stats because he does appear to be a very switchable and capable defender.

88.5 - perfectly good rating for Ben Simmons. Personally I'd go 89 but thanks James

[James Kay]

Mar 8, 2019 16:42:03 GMT Ian Noble said:

88.5 - perfectly good rating for Ben Simmons. Personally I'd go 89 but thanks James

Hahah my M.O. is to give you a hard time before I give you the rating you wanted anyway

[Ian Noble]

Just to double check Kareem.

You're happy giving the same rating to Ben Simmons:

Mar 7, 2019 3:58:58 GMT Kareem Abdul-Jabbar said:

85 ^^

As you are to D'Angelo Russell:

Mar 4, 2019 22:06:04 GMT Kareem Abdul-Jabbar said:

Current Rating: 81

Rating Suggestion: 85

Reason: He's part of the the 2019 All Star Roster. Even if he makes it because of Victor Oladipo's injury I believe he's still part of the selection and that makes him 85 for me. ^^

You're ok with this and you're not biased right?

[James Kay]

Mar 10, 2019 11:25:16 GMT Ian Noble said:

Just to double check Kareem.

You're happy giving the same rating to Ben Simmons:

Mar 7, 2019 3:58:58 GMT Kareem Abdul-Jabbar said:

85 ^^

As you are to D'Angelo Russell:

Mar 4, 2019 22:06:04 GMT Kareem Abdul-Jabbar said:

Current Rating: 81

Rating Suggestion: 85

Reason: He's part of the the 2019 All Star Roster. Even if he makes it because of Victor Oladipo's injury I believe he's still part of the selection and that makes him 85 for me. ^^

You're ok with this and you're not biased right?

It's really not the worst take. D'Angelo is absolutely carrying the Nets right now

[Alex English]

Simmons is a tough dude to judge for D5. He has a real positive impact on the game, but his scoring is so limited. We talk about how players who suck at defense really only get dinged once (DAware), well Simmons who can't shoot is now going to get dinged at least three times (3PT, FG, FT). So that's a disproportionate effect on his overall rating.

I dunno, I guess he's like an 86-87 to me.

[Brian Scalabrine]

I'll go 87. He's breathtaking athletically and cerebral on the court but has glaring flaws. Really tough

[Andrei Kirilenko]

Thread closed after 14 votes. New rating = 87