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Post by Jeremiah Hill on Jul 24, 2017 5:39:50 GMT
25.1 ppg, 12.3 rpg, 2.7 apg, .7 spg, 1.3 bpg 2.7 tov 54.2% FG, 36.7% 3pt, 58.2% 2pt, 83.2% FT
Karl Towns is flat out elite. His stats may change a bit with Butler being on the team but I don't think by much it's clear who the best player is.
Current Rating: 84
Suggested Rating: 90
I feel that he's the third best big in the NBA behind Davis and Cousins.
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Post by Chauncey Billups on Jul 24, 2017 6:06:37 GMT
87. I'd like to see how he plays with other stars on the team and how much success they have. I mean, Kevin Love averaged over 26 pts, 12.5 rebs and 4.4 asts on the TWolves. I want to see how he plays with Butler and maybe even Kyrie Irving if he finds his way there.
Don't get me wrong, I think KAT is better than Love, but he hasn't earned a 90 rating, not even close.
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Post by Ian Noble on Jul 24, 2017 9:33:13 GMT
87
I don't think he's done enough to affect the win/loss column yet.
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Post by Jared Montini on Jul 24, 2017 11:29:17 GMT
87
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Post by Jeremiah Hill on Jul 24, 2017 20:53:59 GMT
87 I don't think he's done enough to affect the win/loss column yet. Anthony Davis hasn't even been to the playoffs and he's over a 90. The Timberwolves would have made the playoffs in the east imo.
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Post by Chauncey Billups on Jul 24, 2017 20:57:35 GMT
Anthony Davis is an Olympic gold medalist though.
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Post by Chauncey Billups on Jul 24, 2017 21:01:44 GMT
Davis also made the playoffs in 2014/15.
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Post by Walt Frazier on Jul 24, 2017 21:32:37 GMT
Sometimes skillset needs to be accounted for, even if I understand the merit of the thought behind the "hasn't earned it because of the playoffs" thing.
I'll buy in but only just barely, for now.
89 from me. He does too many things that need to be accounted for, at an above average or elite level.
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Post by Brian Scalabrine on Jul 24, 2017 23:03:57 GMT
Anthony Davis is an Olympic gold medalist though. So is Harrison Barnes. It means nothing
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Post by Brian Scalabrine on Jul 24, 2017 23:04:17 GMT
90 until he can improve his defense
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Post by Chauncey Billups on Jul 24, 2017 23:09:12 GMT
Anthony Davis is an Olympic gold medalist though. So is Harrison Barnes. It means nothing It means nothing? Lol. Like I said, he also DID make the playoffs. Davis that is. KAT has proven absolutely nothing and a 90 rating is not warranted just because he's well liked around the league. This needs to wait until we see him play with other stars. He's talented but he's not a superstar yet.
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Post by Jared Montini on Jul 24, 2017 23:12:41 GMT
So is Harrison Barnes. It means nothing It means nothing? Lol. Like I said, he also DID make the playoffs. Davis that is. KAT has proven absolutely nothing and a 90 rating is not warranted just because he's well liked around the league. This needs to wait until we see him play with other stars. He's talented but he's not a superstar yet. Davis is like a 93 I believe, so your telling me that Kat is like 7-8 ratings lower? Davis made the playoffs that year because of the Thunders injury problems. Kat averaged 25 ppg so we have to reflect that in the rating so he could put up his nunbers that he does irl
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Post by Brian Scalabrine on Jul 24, 2017 23:15:27 GMT
So is Harrison Barnes. It means nothing It means nothing? Lol. Like I said, he also DID make the playoffs. Davis that is. KAT has proven absolutely nothing and a 90 rating is not warranted just because he's well liked around the league. This needs to wait until we see him play with other stars. He's talented but he's not a superstar yet. This is dumb reasoning. A single player cannot make the playoffs himself. Outside of Towns, Wiggins and Rubio the TWolves have been hot trash for KAT's first 2 years. What other center could've dragged this team to the playoffs? None Judge a player based on their play. KAT has dominated in his short career and I'm fine giving him a rating that corresponds with that. And yes, the Olympics are completely meaningless.
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Post by Chauncey Billups on Jul 24, 2017 23:21:26 GMT
It means nothing? Lol. Like I said, he also DID make the playoffs. Davis that is. KAT has proven absolutely nothing and a 90 rating is not warranted just because he's well liked around the league. This needs to wait until we see him play with other stars. He's talented but he's not a superstar yet. Davis is like a 93 I believe, so your telling me that Kat is like 7-8 ratings lower? Davis made the playoffs that year because of the Thunders injury problems. Kat averaged 25 ppg so we have to reflect that in the rating so he could put up his nunbers that he does irl I'm telling you that putting up good numbers on a shitty team isn't that impressive. Have even watched a TWolves game before? Have ever actually watched KAT? Kevin Love did the same shit on the TWolves. And he said that the Pelicans have never made the playoffs, and they did. Thunder's injury woes mean nothing. It was a false statement.
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Post by Jared Montini on Jul 24, 2017 23:22:48 GMT
Davis is like a 93 I believe, so your telling me that Kat is like 7-8 ratings lower? Davis made the playoffs that year because of the Thunders injury problems. Kat averaged 25 ppg so we have to reflect that in the rating so he could put up his nunbers that he does irl I'm telling you that putting up good numbers on a shitty team isn't that impressive. Have even watched a TWolves game before? Have ever actually watched KAT? Kevin Love did the same shit on the TWolves. And he said that the Pelicans have never made the playoffs, and they did. Thunder's injury woes mean nothing. It was a false statement. [ Kevin love did put up great numbers on Minnesota and he was rated like an 89 lol
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Post by Chauncey Billups on Jul 24, 2017 23:24:29 GMT
It means nothing? Lol. Like I said, he also DID make the playoffs. Davis that is. KAT has proven absolutely nothing and a 90 rating is not warranted just because he's well liked around the league. This needs to wait until we see him play with other stars. He's talented but he's not a superstar yet. This is dumb reasoning. A single player cannot make the playoffs himself. Outside of Towns, Wiggins and Rubio the TWolves have been hot trash for KAT's first 2 years. What other center could've dragged this team to the playoffs? None Judge a player based on their play. KAT has dominated in his short career and I'm fine giving him a rating that corresponds with that. And yes, the Olympics are completely meaningless. My reasoning is dumb? Saying that his stats are padded because he has nobody around him? You just admitted that the team is hot trash. I'm comparing him to a player that had similar numbers, actually better numbers, in Kevin Love. Played for a shitty team, never made the playoffs, but his numbers were off the chart.
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Post by Chauncey Billups on Jul 24, 2017 23:25:35 GMT
I'm telling you that putting up good numbers on a shitty team isn't that impressive. Have even watched a TWolves game before? Have ever actually watched KAT? Kevin Love did the same shit on the TWolves. And he said that the Pelicans have never made the playoffs, and they did. Thunder's injury woes mean nothing. It was a false statement. [ Kevin love did put up great numbers on Minnesota and he was rated like an 89 lol No shit Jared. Now look at all the hate the Kevin Love is getting around here with people crying about his high rating. lol
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Post by Jared Montini on Jul 24, 2017 23:28:02 GMT
[ Kevin love did put up great numbers on Minnesota and he was rated like an 89 lol No shit Jared. Now look at all the hate the Kevin Love is getting around here with people crying about his high rating. lol Because he's worse than he was back then and Kat is better than love was
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Post by Chauncey Billups on Jul 24, 2017 23:30:51 GMT
No shit Jared. Now look at all the hate the Kevin Love is getting around here with people crying about his high rating. lol Because he's worse than he was back then and Kat is better than love was He's not worse than he was, he's playing with better players. He has other players on his team that can actually play basketball. And from what I've gathered around here, people aren't upset about his rating because he's worse than he used to be on the Wolves, but that he was overrated in the first place.
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Post by Walt Frazier on Jul 24, 2017 23:48:36 GMT
Kevin Love did the same shit on the TWolves. Kevin Love's 2nd year on the TWolves: 28:34 mpg (had only earned that, at this point) 45.0 / 33.0 / 81.5 with 14p, 11r, 2.3a, 2.0to, 0.7s, 0.4b Karl-Anthony Towns' 2nd year on the TWolves: 36:57 mpg (already earned all the trust a team can give on mpg, really.) 54.2 / 36.7 / 83.2 with 25.1p 12.3r, 2.7a, 2.6to, 0.7s, 1.3b Sure, that minutes difference makes the counting stats misleading, but the fact he earned those minutes already does say something for itself. And, Love has never come close to those block numbers. Clearly a skill that needs more attention for KAT than it ever did for Kevin. KAT's a better shooter / more efficient player in general, as well. Love's CAREER line is 44.2 / 36.4 / 82 with 18.4p, 11.5r, 2.4a, 2.0to, 0.7s, 0.5b in 32:36mpg Those %'s are something we need to account for. Those blocks are also something we need to account for. KAT is Kevin Love but more efficient and with the ability to at least play some help defense in the post, all while rebounding damn near as well as Love ever did. I'm not trying to convince you to change your mind or your vote, but I think there is a HUGE difference in the %'s and the blocks alone that show they're a different impact-level player. And, I'm actually one of Love's bigger fans, at least in this league, but KAT is on a different level.
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Post by Chauncey Billups on Jul 24, 2017 23:55:15 GMT
Kevin Love did the same shit on the TWolves. Kevin Love's 2nd year on the TWolves: 28:34 mpg (had only earned that, at this point) 45.0 / 33.0 / 81.5 with 14p, 11r, 2.3a, 2.0to, 0.7s, 0.4b Karl-Anthony Towns' 2nd year on the TWolves: 36:57 mpg (already earned all the trust a team can give on mpg, really.) 54.2 / 36.7 / 83.2 with 25.1p 12.3r, 2.7a, 2.6to, 0.7s, 1.3b Sure, that minutes difference makes the counting stats misleading, but the fact he earned those minutes already does say something for itself. And, Love has never come close to those block numbers. Clearly a skill that needs more attention for KAT than it ever did for Kevin. KAT's a better shooter / more efficient player in general, as well. Love's CAREER line is 44.2 / 36.4 / 82 with 18.4p, 11.5r, 2.4a, 2.0to, 0.7s, 0.5b in 32:36mpg Those %'s are something we need to account for. Those blocks are also something we need to account for. KAT is Kevin Love but more efficient and with the ability to at least play some help defense in the post, all while rebounding damn near as well as Love ever did. I'm not trying to convince you to change your mind or your vote, but I think there is a HUGE difference in the %'s and the blocks alone that show they're a different impact-level player. And, I'm actually one of Love's bigger fans, at least in this league, but KAT is on a different level. I'm not comparing their 2nd years, I'm saying that Love, at one point or another, had a better stat line than KAT. Clearly everybody knows that Love's defense is nonexistent, but his PPG, RPG and APG were all similar and actually better. I think KAT is a better player, no doubt, but he isn't a 90 overall, not yet. He hasn't earned it. The TWolves have been trash, they always have, so his stats lose their value IMO. I think having Jimmy Butler in town will be perfect opportunity for us to see how Towns plays with another star and what happens to his stats. They might even end up with Irving. Increasing his rating before then is irresponsible, especially to a 90. There's no reason to rush to judgement just yet. Our season starts Dec. 15th which will give us a decent sample size for Towns' ability to mesh with other stars. I just don't think this needs to happen right now.
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Post by Walt Frazier on Jul 25, 2017 0:09:11 GMT
Kevin Love's 2nd year on the TWolves: 28:34 mpg (had only earned that, at this point) 45.0 / 33.0 / 81.5 with 14p, 11r, 2.3a, 2.0to, 0.7s, 0.4b Karl-Anthony Towns' 2nd year on the TWolves: 36:57 mpg (already earned all the trust a team can give on mpg, really.) 54.2 / 36.7 / 83.2 with 25.1p 12.3r, 2.7a, 2.6to, 0.7s, 1.3b Sure, that minutes difference makes the counting stats misleading, but the fact he earned those minutes already does say something for itself. And, Love has never come close to those block numbers. Clearly a skill that needs more attention for KAT than it ever did for Kevin. KAT's a better shooter / more efficient player in general, as well. Love's CAREER line is 44.2 / 36.4 / 82 with 18.4p, 11.5r, 2.4a, 2.0to, 0.7s, 0.5b in 32:36mpg Those %'s are something we need to account for. Those blocks are also something we need to account for. KAT is Kevin Love but more efficient and with the ability to at least play some help defense in the post, all while rebounding damn near as well as Love ever did. I'm not trying to convince you to change your mind or your vote, but I think there is a HUGE difference in the %'s and the blocks alone that show they're a different impact-level player. And, I'm actually one of Love's bigger fans, at least in this league, but KAT is on a different level. I'm not comparing their 2nd years, I'm saying that Love, at one point or another, had a better stat line than KAT. Clearly everybody knows that Love's defense is nonexistent, but his PPG, RPG and APG were all similar and actually better. I think KAT is a better player, no doubt, but he isn't a 90 overall, not yet. He hasn't earned it. The TWolves have been trash, they always have, so his stats lose their value IMO. I think having Jimmy Butler in town will be perfect opportunity for us to see how Towns plays with another star and what happens to his stats. They might even end up with Irving. Increasing his rating before then is irresponsible, especially to a 90. There's no reason to rush to judgement just yet. Our season starts Dec. 15th which will give us a decent sample size for Towns' ability to mesh with other stars. I just don't think this needs to happen right now. I don't disagree, I just think we might feel this to a different extent. Which is fine. We're also OK raising players and then lowering them if we were wrong. Or, if the player's game changes, or if a star comes in and takes opportunities away from him, possibly forcing him to change his game. Again, not trying to change your mind, just presenting some of the opposing side. Sometimes I even just do that for fun, not always my true opinion!
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Post by Chauncey Billups on Jul 25, 2017 1:29:35 GMT
I edited my vote to an 87. I think that KAT is a great player, but I don't think he deserves a 90 rating. I think he WILL get there, he just isn't among the elite just yet.
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Post by Kareem Abdul-Jabbar on Jul 25, 2017 10:57:22 GMT
90 ^^
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Post by Jeremiah Hill on Jul 25, 2017 11:05:50 GMT
I edited my vote to an 87. I think that KAT is a great player, but I don't think he deserves a 90 rating. I think he WILL get there, he just isn't among the elite just yet. He's not without his flaws. His defense is still meh on a good day, but he's a 2nd year player. That's to be expected. But I will say that the team around him was also entirely inexperienced outside of Rubio, who we all know has his issues leading a team due to his shooting woes. Lavine, Wiggins. But they both blow on defense, there was little veteran presence on the team as well. I think if KAT had a bit more help or at least players that aren't total ballhogs (Seriously, Wiggins shoots or turns it over everytime he gets the ball it seemed in the games I watched.) They would have had more success. Even with his team mates flaws, the West was stacked as shit. I still think that they maintain their strong start they had last year if they had been in the East and probably would have made the playoffs.
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Kevin Hollis
Former Thunder GM for 7 years
All Star
Posts: 2,838
Dec 16, 2022 11:27:40 GMT
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Post by Kevin Hollis on Jul 25, 2017 14:40:47 GMT
86
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Post by Charles Barkley on Jul 26, 2017 20:12:03 GMT
I think KAT is a very good player but don't think he deserves the 90 threshold based on the discussions that were had regarding Giannis.
I also feel that while KAT is a great player, he isn't a wing and therefore lacks the necessary extra couple of points to properly adapt his game.
That being said, I think an 88 is enough to get him where he needs to be right now.
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Post by Brian Scalabrine on Jul 27, 2017 0:14:34 GMT
I think KAT is a very good player but don't think he deserves the 90 threshold based on the discussions that were had regarding Giannis. You should stockwatch him again before the season. Ik personally I underestimated him
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Post by Charles Barkley on Jul 27, 2017 3:07:18 GMT
I think KAT is a very good player but don't think he deserves the 90 threshold based on the discussions that were had regarding Giannis. You should stockwatch him again before the season. Ik personally I underestimated him I prolly will. But what I learned from that thread was that people see a 90+ and think a player needs to be more than just a player who is better than an 89. People want a player who is a "threat" in Alex's terms, or someone who will carry a team and be a dominant force in the NBA. I personally don't like this way of thinking, but at least if KYrie gets traded from the Cavs, he should go up to the 90s
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Post by Jeremiah Hill on Jul 27, 2017 3:20:04 GMT
I think KAT is a very good player but don't think he deserves the 90 threshold based on the discussions that were had regarding Giannis. I also feel that while KAT is a great player, he isn't a wing and therefore lacks the necessary extra couple of points to properly adapt his game. That being said, I think an 88 is enough to get him where he needs to be right now. The thing is, in this case he kinda does do some wing type stuff compared to other bigs. It was the same thing with Jokic. Towns can bring the ball up the court on the fast break every now and then. His foot speed is very good compared to your Okafors and Mozgov type bigs. He's not a particularly efficient passer but 2.7 assists from a big is a good start. He can take people off the dribble a bit as well. Shoots the 3 but doesn't let it affect his rebounding. He's not exactly in the Point-Big mold of passing and vision that Jokic and Giannis have but he does do much more than you're typical big and he's more athletic than most of them as well in terms of strength and speed in general. I know that the 90 wasn't probably gonna happen. I see him at that level now based on his stats and the only thing dragging him down is his average, not great defense. I think after next season we'll see him in a much different light. I don't think anyone can realistically vote less than an 88 based on those stats (some people value different things). I know when we wanna raise a player its a good idea to just be honest and I feel I was but I understood the reality of what people would vote because team success does matter to an extent, more for some, less for others. I don't think that 90 is a laughable number but I understand the realities of the stock watch.
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