Kevin Hollis
Former Thunder GM for 7 years
All Star
Posts: 2,838
Dec 16, 2022 11:27:40 GMT
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Post by Kevin Hollis on Jul 25, 2017 16:05:19 GMT
If we are talking real life JR, no team would trade the same two players back and forth multiple times. Hell, I don't even know if that is allowed in the current NBA, who knows.
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Post by JR Wiles on Jul 25, 2017 16:08:39 GMT
The fact still is that if JR goes and turns around and receives Evan Turner back after he is traded, this should be a 125% violation imo. Also, this trade looks bad because JR is literally trading his picks for guys he just traded for/away. If this aspect wasn't even part of the deal, then I wouldn't care. NBA Rule- If teams acquire a player in a trade, they are allowed to trade that player straight-up for another individual player immediately. However, if teams wish to package that player with another and make a trade, they must wait 60 days before doing so.
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Post by Jared Montini on Jul 25, 2017 16:08:48 GMT
If we are talking real life JR, no team would trade the same two players back and forth multiple times. Hell, I don't even know if that is allowed in the current NBA, who knows. isn't there a rule in the NBA where you can't trade someone for like 60 days once you acquire them
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Post by JR Wiles on Jul 25, 2017 16:10:53 GMT
We have added and changed so many rules in the 5+ years I've been here. Most have been good for the league. Some would never happen IRL without other rules being implemented. That being said... I would not be losing Jonas Valanciunas if we had added to the league restricted/unrestricted free agents. I should not lose him just because another team offers more money or has the cap space. I should be able to sign him no matter what if I feel he's worth it moving forward. I'll just match any offer to him. That rule is not a rule though and honestly rules are in place now that were not in the past that would have changed the way I would have managed the Spurs roster.. ie Tim Duncan, etc Even if we kept the RFA process, Jonas would not have been part of it. RFA would've applied to 2013 rookies and after. Why would that have to be? Do they decide on a year IRL? I believe they have been using the restricted/unrestricted idea in the NBA for as long as I can remember. Why do we start only with a certain draft class?
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Kevin Hollis
Former Thunder GM for 7 years
All Star
Posts: 2,838
Dec 16, 2022 11:27:40 GMT
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Post by Kevin Hollis on Jul 25, 2017 16:10:57 GMT
The fact still is that if JR goes and turns around and receives Evan Turner back after he is traded, this should be a 125% violation imo. Also, this trade looks bad because JR is literally trading his picks for guys he just traded for/away. If this aspect wasn't even part of the deal, then I wouldn't care. NBA Rule- If teams acquire a player in a trade, they are allowed to trade that player straight-up for another individual player immediately. However, if teams wish to package that player with another and make a trade, they must wait 60 days before doing so. Can you please provide an example of a team trading a player and then 60 days or immediately receiving that player back?
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Post by JR Wiles on Jul 25, 2017 16:11:53 GMT
If we are talking real life JR, no team would trade the same two players back and forth multiple times. Hell, I don't even know if that is allowed in the current NBA, who knows. isn't there a rule in the NBA where you can't trade someone for like 60 days once you acquire them If teams acquire a player in a trade, they are allowed to trade that player straight-up for another individual player immediately. However, if teams wish to package that player with another and make a trade, they must wait 60 days before doing so.
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Post by JR Wiles on Jul 25, 2017 16:13:15 GMT
Plus no rule was in place in this league before this trade. The rule has to be made, then followed.
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Kevin Hollis
Former Thunder GM for 7 years
All Star
Posts: 2,838
Dec 16, 2022 11:27:40 GMT
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Post by Kevin Hollis on Jul 25, 2017 16:19:38 GMT
Want the real NBA rules???
•A team cannot reacquire a player it traded away during the same season (a season for this purpose being defined as starting on the first day of the regular season and ending on the last day of the Finals). If the player was traded between seasons (i.e., from the first day after the Finals to the last day prior to the start of the next regular season), it cannot reacquire the player prior to the end of the next season. If he is waived by his new team, then he cannot re-sign with his original team until the one-year anniversary of the trade, or until the July 1 following the end of his contract, whichever comes first6. However, if a team trades a player's draft rights, it can reacquire the player during the same season.
So no, you wouldn't be allowed to recover Turner.
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Kevin Hollis
Former Thunder GM for 7 years
All Star
Posts: 2,838
Dec 16, 2022 11:27:40 GMT
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Post by Kevin Hollis on Jul 25, 2017 16:21:34 GMT
Plus no rule was in place in this league before this trade. The rule has to be made, then followed. Someone said earlier that Ian didn't allow trades where teams were flipping players back and forth - this would be one of those times. Literally, this is the only thing I can't stand about this trade, I don't care that you are trading, trading your picks, or that most think you lose this trade. All I really care is that it looks ridiculous that the same players are being traded back and forth between teams.
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Post by JR Wiles on Jul 25, 2017 16:27:47 GMT
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Vlade Divac
Former Kings GM
Sophomore
Posts: 629
Feb 23, 2024 23:40:50 GMT
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Post by Vlade Divac on Jul 25, 2017 16:30:40 GMT
I am about to test the legality of trading players back and forth!
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Post by JR Wiles on Jul 25, 2017 16:46:18 GMT
Players been traded like this more times than I can remember. It has never been a rule or an issue. Why make it one now? It's made the league what it is and making new rules doesn't always help the league. What about all those that did it beforehand? I guess it was ok and maybe just maybe some GMs have really gotten better because of it not being an issue.
I mean we even allow trading of rookies, when IRL a team has to wait 30 days to trade a rookie that was signed. Do we add this rule now too?
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Kevin Hollis
Former Thunder GM for 7 years
All Star
Posts: 2,838
Dec 16, 2022 11:27:40 GMT
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Post by Kevin Hollis on Jul 25, 2017 16:49:55 GMT
There is a big difference between waiting 30 days after a draft to trade a rookie and trading the same players back and forth to get around the 125% rule etc.
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Post by Walt Frazier on Jul 25, 2017 16:52:43 GMT
The issue for me is not purely the fact you two are trading the same players back and forth, though that does point to either poor planning, collusion, or some other form of rule evasion (125% rule being avoided and smaller pieces really being the beef of the trade, when eventually these two other big contracts have been re-branded and wind up wherever they wind up, for example.)
My bigger issue is the other pieces moving with these players, as they seem to be changing value on each side of the equation, rapidly, with little to no change in their real-life value. I just don't get it and think JR has already paid plenty to acquire Jrue (his 2019 1st), 3 months ago. The fact he has to pay his 2021 1st to get him now means something weird has happened. And if he's paying his 2021 1st for ZBo then that's a different issue as this particular trade is setting his team up for longterm issues, and I'm not entirely sure he cares about those longterm issues anymore, which concerns me for the health of the league and that franchise.
Still a strong reject from me.
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Post by Danny Longley on Jul 25, 2017 17:07:47 GMT
I don't actually give a flying fuck about trading players back and forth - it shouldn't happen as much as it does, but it's one of those things I'm fine with since it's one of the small things that contributes to the league staying active.
On Jonas, let's not pretend like RFA actually factored into making the deal - JR, I don't want to rip into you but losing him was clearly a result of poor planning - you took the man on with two years on his deal when the concept of RFA wasn't even being considered yet and your cap situation was far from clear.
As for the trade itself I do have an issue with one team giving up the best player (Millsap), the best pick(2021 1st Spurs), and taking on the worst or 2nd worst contract (Miles Plumlee).
Buut, it's a pick too far off to really project despite the contracts the Spurs have. We're giving Horford shit for possibly being on the decline while ignoring that Millsap is actually older and probably has a game that won't translate as well as Horford's as the years go by.
It's really close, but I'll accept. Partly because there are too many assumptions flying around, partly because I really like league votes.
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Post by Andrei Kirilenko on Jul 25, 2017 17:16:40 GMT
Can we agree to hear from Ian Noble one more time before it goes to a league vote since he has wavered a bit?
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Vlade Divac
Former Kings GM
Sophomore
Posts: 629
Feb 23, 2024 23:40:50 GMT
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Post by Vlade Divac on Jul 25, 2017 17:38:42 GMT
Can we agree to hear from Ian Noble one more time before it goes to a league vote since he has wavered a bit? It sounds like Danny Longley would reject if Ian Noble changed his mind. Then again, I could be wrong.
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Chris Mullin
Golden State Warriors
Starter
Posts: 1,303
Feb 19, 2024 21:58:28 GMT
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Post by Chris Mullin on Jul 25, 2017 17:52:29 GMT
FTR I really don't care if this trade passes or gets rejected.
However, I'm not a big fan of players being traded back and forth from the same team(s). There is technically not a rule against it in D5, but that doesn't mean we shouldn't be constantly looking at ways to improve the league as these types of situations present themselves.
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Vlade Divac
Former Kings GM
Sophomore
Posts: 629
Feb 23, 2024 23:40:50 GMT
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Post by Vlade Divac on Jul 25, 2017 18:09:41 GMT
FTR I really don't care if this trade passes or gets rejected. However, I'm not a big fan of players being traded back and forth from the same team(s). There is technically not a rule against it in D5, but that doesn't mean we shouldn't be constantly looking at ways to improve the league as these types of situations present themselves. I am going to take as a "yes" vote for the Vlade Divac Rule!
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Post by Danny Longley on Jul 25, 2017 19:10:43 GMT
Can we agree to hear from Ian Noble one more time before it goes to a league vote since he has wavered a bit? It sounds like Danny Longley would reject if Ian Noble changed his mind. Then again, I could be wrong. Definitely not changing votes for the sole purpose of forcing the league vote.
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Post by Ian Noble on Jul 25, 2017 21:25:48 GMT
I'm sticking with a reject, I recognise though it's not 100% cut and dry.
So... league vote!
GMs have 24 hours to give their own verdicts and the trade is decided based on those votes.
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Post by Chauncey Billups on Jul 25, 2017 21:27:16 GMT
I think this ruins Josh's team and he gets screwed so I accept.
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Post by Brian Scalabrine on Jul 25, 2017 21:30:20 GMT
Reject. This trade murders the Spurs future and dumps it in the Rio Grande
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Post by Andrei Kirilenko on Jul 25, 2017 21:35:58 GMT
The rules say "all GMs" get to vote, so... accept
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Post by Chauncey Billups on Jul 25, 2017 21:37:29 GMT
The rules say "all GMs" get to vote, so... accept You might get another rule named after you now. Poor Vlade, so desperate.
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Post by Jared Montini on Jul 25, 2017 21:41:47 GMT
Reject will put my reason later
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Post by Walt Frazier on Jul 25, 2017 22:05:03 GMT
The rules say "all GMs" get to vote, so... accept Common sense/logic applies here. All GMs outside of the ones who are in the trade, and not on the TC.
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Post by Andrei Kirilenko on Jul 25, 2017 22:35:47 GMT
The rules say "all GMs" get to vote, so... accept Common sense/logic applies here. All GMs outside of the ones who are in the trade, and not on the TC. I don't think that is common sense. That is like saying someone running for office can't vote for themselves. Just because you are a participant doesn't mean you don't get equal say.
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Vlade Divac
Former Kings GM
Sophomore
Posts: 629
Feb 23, 2024 23:40:50 GMT
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Post by Vlade Divac on Jul 25, 2017 22:57:51 GMT
Randolph is old and this team is overall getting old and starting to decline as a result. I started asking myself "man, the Spurs are starting to look like the Pistons when I took them over" during the Ghanzy era if this deal passes. While I think they are better than that after thinking about it, it is pretty close especially since Rondo made a come back of sorts after I traded him to Dallas.
After this deal, I think the only assets the Spurs have constitute Jrue Holiday, Isaiah Thomas, Al Horford, Austin Rivers, and Kelly Olynyk. While I love Olynyk and his potential, I have serious questions about the other four guys. I think Horford may not even start next for BOS next year given their loaded roster, Isaiah Thomas is a huge question mark and could be replaced at any time, and I like Austin Rivers more than most but obviously he has his own flaws.
I know I maybe in the minority on this, but I do not think Jrue Holiday fits in with Davis and Cousins because he likes to jack the ball up. Furthermore, I think it is a bad sign that the Pelicans signed Rondo and are moving him to the 2 guard; most guards ball-dominate guards prefer to play with the ball in their hands (IE: James Harden), and I think it is an indictment of Holiday that New Olreans signed Rondo. Honestly, I think he lacks the judgement to play PG which severely curtails his upside.
Given all of this, I think San Antonio is on its way down if this trade passes as I foresee only Olynyk and maybe Rivers slightly improving for their current ratings. By 2021, I think that pick could be top 5 if not the very first pick in the draft; obviously Rivers and Olynyk are not #1 pick-level of players. If we reject this trade, San Antonio retains Milsap (who I think is much better than Horford,) keeps Rudy Gay (who he traded for Holiday earlier), keeps some solid depth guys, and mostly importantly the 2021 1st. Furthermore, I really think someone needs to talk to JR as the Spurs are not going to be able to compete in a loaded Western Conference for much longer and need to rebuild pretty soon.
While my trade with PHX should resolve the issue as to whether you can trade back or not, and hopefully create the much-anticipated "Vlade Divac Rule," I do think it defeats the spirit of the 125% rule to allow trade backs after a couple of weeks.
As a result, I reject this trade.
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Post by Jared Montini on Jul 25, 2017 23:02:42 GMT
Actually, after much thought im going to change my mind and accept this. I hate the idea of a "trade back" and the Spurs 1st being moved but JR is active so we should let him rock. Its not like hes getting scrubs either, Jrue and Horford are solid guys and could help him make the playoffs.
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