|
Post by Walt Frazier on Mar 5, 2017 4:51:12 GMT
Can I summarize my reject a different way? Phoenix gives a legit starting player (at a weak position in the NBA to boot). Not only a legit starting player, but one with a pretty high ceiling. Phoenix gets, very likely, a handful of role/bench players in return. "Mudiay could still turn into a Brandon Jennings type player!" - Someone said that in this thread I think. Is that the standard, and that's what's seeming like a best-case scenario for the piece with the most value on that side of the trade? I actually really like Ulis, and I think Yabusele has some upside, but you can't ignore the downside either. LaVine has downside due to injury but the one side of this argument is trying to say he's guaranteed done forever. Which, if so, Billy wouldn't trade for him. LaVine has actually proven things in the NBA. Mudiay has flopped, though he's not done, he really should have made more of an impact by now. He has, incontrovertibly, fallen flat on his face to this point. Jameer Nelson has overtaken him, come on. It's not that Jared can't trade LaVine, and it's not that these pieces are worthless on the other side, but it really looks like a bunch of role-player/bench players that are easily replaceable for one legit NBA starter with high upside. That's just a reject unless it's a super salary-driven trade, maybe? Which this isn't. I agree. A bunch of bench players // upside starters wouldn't be worth Lavine who has semi-star upside (please raise your goddamn hand if you think Lavine is the #1 or #2 option of a ring team), but then when you take the star and tear his ACL you have to see that the trade can't be rejectable. IS IT NOT POSSIBLE TO TRADR FOR A BORDERLINE STAR WITH A CAREER THREATENING INJURY WITHOUT GIVING UP ANOTHER GUARANTEED STAR? I'm not trading for Ben Simmons or Wiggins or whoever, this guy is a goddamn 3rd option at best that just tore his goddamn ACL and I just offered half my team and it's rejectable? Come on The TC has been going full retard lately I think he should get at least a likely starter if he's giving a "semi-star" as you put it. Right now it's super possible that Ulis is a backup and the other two are Jerebko or hell, Jan Vesely.
|
|
Deleted
Posts: 0
Apr 24, 2024 20:01:37 GMT
|
Post by Deleted on Mar 5, 2017 4:53:55 GMT
I agree. A bunch of bench players // upside starters wouldn't be worth Lavine who has semi-star upside (please raise your goddamn hand if you think Lavine is the #1 or #2 option of a ring team), but then when you take the star and tear his ACL you have to see that the trade can't be rejectable. IS IT NOT POSSIBLE TO TRADR FOR A BORDERLINE STAR WITH A CAREER THREATENING INJURY WITHOUT GIVING UP ANOTHER GUARANTEED STAR? I'm not trading for Ben Simmons or Wiggins or whoever, this guy is a goddamn 3rd option at best that just tore his goddamn ACL and I just offered half my team and it's rejectable? Come on The TC has been going full retard lately I think he should get at least a likely starter if he's giving a "semi-star" as you put it. Right now it's super possible that Ulis is a backup and the other two are Jerebko or hell, Jan Vesely. Lol I mean that's where your bullshit meter is coming in. Acknowledging my pieces floor and not their ceiling. FACT 2 years from now it's easily possible PHX or UTA loses this trade. Easily That alone.makes this not rejectable. Continue on with your justifications though. I love all the risk assessment from PHX side but none from mine. If you can easily put together a scenario where both sides win a trade it isn't rejectable. Period. I'd.yabusele or mudiay reach their potential it's fine for Phoenix. If Lavine doesn't come back himself its bad for me BUT BY ALL MEANS let's take the 10 different uncertain scenarios, project then all in PHX favor and against my favor and then reject the trade based on that.
|
|
|
Post by Walt Frazier on Mar 5, 2017 5:06:27 GMT
I think he should get at least a likely starter if he's giving a "semi-star" as you put it. Right now it's super possible that Ulis is a backup and the other two are Jerebko or hell, Jan Vesely. Lol I mean that's where your bullshit meter is coming in. Acknowledging my pieces floor and not their ceiling. FACT 2 years from now it's easily possible PHX or UTA loses this trade. Easily That alone.makes this not rejectable. Continue on with your justifications though. I love all the risk assessment from PHX side but none from mine. If you can easily put together a scenario where both sides win a trade it isn't rejectable. Period. I'd.yabusele or mudiay reach their potential it's fine for Phoenix. If Lavine doesn't come back himself its bad for me BUT BY ALL MEANS let's take the 10 different uncertain scenarios, project then all in PHX favor and against my favor and then reject the trade based on that. If we go next case on every player in every trade, almost no trades would ever get rejected. It's about likelihood of outcomes and in this case, also about what we've seen on the NBA level. We've got a second year player trending towards bust (still has time, just saying though), rookie who has proven he can be a backup pg, 2 completely unproven players not in the NBA yet, and a super late 1st which is also, of course, unproven right now. LaVine has proven a very respectable floor and shown higher upside than any piece on the other side. For what it's worth, I sat on this trade for awhile and it ended up being one where I just couldn't say accept, more than it was a slam dunk reject.
|
|
|
Post by Ian Noble on Mar 5, 2017 9:31:58 GMT
the trade comitee is crazy in this league. They wouldn't let my Washington trade go through because they think he should be tanking but then let him trade picks for Okafor and knight. They wouldn't let me trade Thad young for Noah and a 1st. None of those trades hurt my franchise at all. The comitee rejects trades so the team is fine for future gms if the current one ducks out, but this just makes it so I can't take this team to be where I want it. Lavine is a good player but his acl injury hurts his value. You guys keep saying that an acl test doesn't ruin your career but it kind of does. For example Jabari Parker has now done it twice I believe and Peterson has messed up his knee multiple times. Once the acl is torn you are more likely to sustain a injury in the future. Also, say if lavine comes back he is still the 3rd option on his team and could be the 4th if the wolves luck out in the lottery. I just don't see how this trade hurts me enough to reject. If you resubmitted your Tobias Harris deal now that Okafor and Knight have joined Washington it might actually get passed because it doesn't look like total insanity from Washington's POV any more. Obviously myself and the other TC members took into account LaVine's injury in judgement. The thrust of my argument was that if I can get six 1sts for Rajon Rondo back in 2013 because I spent months investigating trade scenarios and negotiating for hours and hours and hours then you can get more than one pick and Mudiay for LaVine after three days of LaVine being on the trading block, which he shouldn't be if you're rebuilding by the way.
|
|
|
Post by Ian Noble on Mar 5, 2017 11:00:01 GMT
Also fuck you guys Once you've been around here long enough to be trusted to run a team properly you wont get rejected when you trade the best young player on your team away
|
|
|
Post by Hanamichi Sakuragi on Mar 5, 2017 11:14:00 GMT
Popcorn please..
|
|
|
Post by Jay Z on Mar 5, 2017 12:51:39 GMT
I saw what you wrote Ian, sneakiest commissioner in the history of D5!!
|
|
|
Post by Ian Noble on Mar 5, 2017 13:06:35 GMT
Jay Z you are literally Hitler! Fuck this gay earth etc. etc. @riogho - I noticed your images are blocked from my webserver, let me know and I'll add an exception so you can use them you ungrateful bastard my dear friend
|
|
Deleted
Posts: 0
Apr 24, 2024 20:01:37 GMT
|
Post by Deleted on Mar 5, 2017 13:44:40 GMT
Jay Z you are literally Hitler! Fuck this gay earth etc. etc. @riogho - I noticed your images are blocked from my webserver, let me know and I'll add an exception so you can use them you ungrateful bastard my dear friend I already re uploaded the images to my own server Ian thanks though. Which one are you seeing that looks weird? And I'm just annoyed my trade doesn't get passed... Also I've been here over two years and the TC is the same. Maybe consider rotating them every once in awhile?
|
|
|
Post by Ian Noble on Mar 5, 2017 13:50:29 GMT
Jay Z you are literally Hitler! Fuck this gay earth etc. etc. @riogho - I noticed your images are blocked from my webserver, let me know and I'll add an exception so you can use them you ungrateful bastard my dear friend I already re uploaded the images to my own server Ian thanks though. Which one are you seeing that looks weird? And I'm just annoyed my trade doesn't get passed... Also I've been here over two years and the TC is the same. Maybe consider rotating them every once in awhile? Older boxscores like this one
|
|
Deleted
Posts: 0
Apr 24, 2024 20:01:37 GMT
|
Post by Deleted on Mar 5, 2017 13:51:37 GMT
I already re uploaded the images to my own server Ian thanks though. Which one are you seeing that looks weird? And I'm just annoyed my trade doesn't get passed... Also I've been here over two years and the TC is the same. Maybe consider rotating them every once in awhile? Older boxscores like this oneYeah I switched them over recently. I figured you had done it on purpose lol
|
|
|
Post by Ian Noble on Mar 5, 2017 13:55:39 GMT
Yeah I switched them over recently. I figured you had done it on purpose lol I don't mind, I get unlimited bandwidth so it's ok.
|
|
|
Post by Andrei Kirilenko on Mar 5, 2017 14:01:46 GMT
I think what separates D5 from other leagues is the quality we demand here. Yes it is true that D5 has more stringent trade voting than other leagues, but that is only because it is a more mature league with 80% of GMs who have learned the difference between a good deal and a bad deal. If you submit a trade with the other 20%, it is automatically going to be subject to way more scrutiny. It is not Jared's fault at all- if a long-standing GM submitted this trade, it probably would have passed. But being new automatically groups you into that 20% bucket until proven otherwise. There is just too much history of GMs coming in for short-term time periods and making a ton of bad trades, and then quitting the league. Lavine is by far the best asset on a Phoenix team that doesn't have much else going on, so it is the TCs duty to do a little more to protect the franchise for the future of the league.
|
|
Deleted
Posts: 0
Apr 24, 2024 20:01:37 GMT
|
Post by Deleted on Mar 5, 2017 15:00:45 GMT
I think what separates D5 from other leagues is the quality we demand here. Yes it is true that D5 has more stringent trade voting than other leagues, but that is only because it is a more mature league with 80% of GMs who have learned the difference between a good deal and a bad deal. If you submit a trade with the other 20%, it is automatically going to be subject to way more scrutiny. It is not Jared's fault at all- if a long-standing GM submitted this trade, it probably would have passed. But being new automatically groups you into that 20% bucket until proven otherwise. There is just too much history of GMs coming in for short-term time periods and making a ton of bad trades, and then quitting the league. Lavine is by far the best asset on a Phoenix team that doesn't have much else going on, so it is the TCs duty to do a little more to protect the franchise for the future of the league. I agree with this philosophy of protecting new GMs and bad franchises, it's super important. Still think we have 80% of the GMs here who would be great TC members
|
|
|
Post by Jared Montini on Mar 5, 2017 15:02:50 GMT
I understand guys, sorry for my tantrum lol. It's just hard to find any trades to put this team in the right direction. That majerle dude messed up this team
|
|
|
Post by Hanamichi Sakuragi on Mar 5, 2017 23:41:44 GMT
I understand guys, sorry for my tantrum lol. It's just hard to find any trades to put this team in the right direction. That majerle dude messed up this team He did not messed up Jared... He got Kawhi, Lavine and Goran there... Unfortunately the 2016 offseason came and the rest is history... just ask Jeremiah..
|
|
|
Post by Ian Noble on Mar 5, 2017 23:46:12 GMT
I understand guys, sorry for my tantrum lol. It's just hard to find any trades to put this team in the right direction. That majerle dude messed up this team He did not messed up Jared... He got Kawhi, Lavine and Goran there... Unfortunately the 2016 offseason came and the rest is history... just ask Jeremiah.. Or you could ask Dan Majerle but you'd probably get a one word answer, if you received a reply at all
|
|
|
Post by Jared Montini on Mar 6, 2017 0:13:16 GMT
I understand guys, sorry for my tantrum lol. It's just hard to find any trades to put this team in the right direction. That majerle dude messed up this team He did not messed up Jared... He got Kawhi, Lavine and Goran there... Unfortunately the 2016 offseason came and the rest is history... just ask Jeremiah.. he traded away his firsts and barely tried to retain kawahi. He could have easily tried harder and keep Leonard.
|
|
|
Post by Jeremiah Hill on Mar 22, 2017 7:08:22 GMT
After reviewing all of the evidence. I have to side against the TC in this instance.
I would like Jared to examine the reasoning I would have to reject if I would have sided that way. Here it is. Billy King is going to trade for Lavine and when he comes back next year he's hoping for a Jabari Parker style comback. Then Billy is going to trade Lavine for a good prospect AND a lotto pick. I'd bet my team on it.
The thing is that you can do that same thing. Just wait till he comes back, throws up 20 points a few games in a row and then trade him for a good player or prospect and a first. You are selling very low on a player that can be sold very high.
To Billy, I wouldn't take Ian's gain trust as a GM thing against you. That is more towards Jared, not because he sucks or is bad but because he just hasn't been here that long and needs to show he knows what he's doing and has a plan.
Personally I've never seen Billy/Adam lose a trade yet so any reject on his account is out the window.
Jared, your trade with Washington wasn't rejected because of anything you did. Washington's team is built to tank regardless of what he things. And he is also so new.
Walt's assessment of Mudiay is a little early. Not every PG is Kyrie coming into the league lighting shit on fire. PG is a learned skill position. We've just been through a few drafts of PGs who've thrown up points which made them overrated a bit. An average PG takes a smidge longer to come along in general which is why Ian hasn't given me Exum yet.
I forgot what I was talking abut I will finish this tomorrow.
|
|
Vlade Divac
Former Kings GM
Sophomore
Posts: 629
Feb 23, 2024 23:40:50 GMT
|
Post by Vlade Divac on Mar 22, 2017 9:09:32 GMT
He did not messed up Jared... He got Kawhi, Lavine and Goran there... Unfortunately the 2016 offseason came and the rest is history... just ask Jeremiah.. he traded away his firsts and barely tried to retain kawahi. He could have easily tried harder and keep Leonard. Wow, apparently I missed a lot in this thread! I think Dan tried but the language barrier curtailed his ability to resign Kawhi. Basically, he could not gain an advantage by showing effort, giving good rational as to why he should stay, and/or sucking up to the player agent. If it makes you feel any better, I wanted Phoenix because I thought they would be terrible after Kawahi left. In other words, you have done a pretty good with them.
|
|
|
Post by Ian Noble on Mar 22, 2017 11:00:27 GMT
he traded away his firsts and barely tried to retain kawahi. He could have easily tried harder and keep Leonard. Wow, apparently I missed a lot in this thread! I think Dan tried but the language barrier curtailed his ability to resign Kawhi. Basically, he could not gain an advantage by showing effort, giving good rational as to why he should stay, and/or sucking up to the player agent. If it makes you feel any better, I wanted Phoenix because I thought they would be terrible after Kawahi left. In other words, you have done a pretty good with them. Language barrier may have played a role, but it was mostly a huge lack of effort.
|
|
|
Post by Walt Frazier on Mar 22, 2017 12:53:46 GMT
After reviewing all of the evidence. I have to side against the TC in this instance. I would like Jared to examine the reasoning I would have to reject if I would have sided that way. Here it is. Billy King is going to trade for Lavine and when he comes back next year he's hoping for a Jabari Parker style comback. Then Billy is going to trade Lavine for a good prospect AND a lotto pick. I'd bet my team on it. The thing is that you can do that same thing. Just wait till he comes back, throws up 20 points a few games in a row and then trade him for a good player or prospect and a first. You are selling very low on a player that can be sold very high. To Billy, I wouldn't take Ian's gain trust as a GM thing against you. That is more towards Jared, not because he sucks or is bad but because he just hasn't been here that long and needs to show he knows what he's doing and has a plan. Personally I've never seen Billy/Adam lose a trade yet so any reject on his account is out the window. Jared, your trade with Washington wasn't rejected because of anything you did. Washington's team is built to tank regardless of what he things. And he is also so new. Walt's assessment of Mudiay is a little early. Not every PG is Kyrie coming into the league lighting shit on fire. PG is a learned skill position. We've just been through a few drafts of PGs who've thrown up points which made them overrated a bit. An average PG takes a smidge longer to come along in general which is why Ian hasn't given me Exum yet. I forgot what I was talking abut I will finish this tomorrow. I stand by my "trending towards bust" statement. Doesn't mean he can't reverse that trend, but that's factual.
|
|
Kevin Hollis
Former Thunder GM for 7 years
All Star
Posts: 2,838
Dec 16, 2022 11:27:40 GMT
|
Post by Kevin Hollis on Mar 22, 2017 15:21:46 GMT
he traded away his firsts and barely tried to retain kawahi. He could have easily tried harder and keep Leonard. Wow, apparently I missed a lot in this thread! I think Dan tried but the language barrier curtailed his ability to resign Kawhi. Basically, he could not gain an advantage by showing effort, giving good rational as to why he should stay, and/or sucking up to the player agent. If it makes you feel any better, I wanted Phoenix because I thought they would be terrible after Kawahi left. In other words, you have done a pretty good with them. Sure didn't play a role when he didn't get Kwahi. Everyone understood what he was saying and I believe he posted more in two days than he did for the entirety since I joined the league.
|
|
Vlade Divac
Former Kings GM
Sophomore
Posts: 629
Feb 23, 2024 23:40:50 GMT
|
Post by Vlade Divac on Mar 22, 2017 15:40:10 GMT
Wow, apparently I missed a lot in this thread! I think Dan tried but the language barrier curtailed his ability to resign Kawhi. Basically, he could not gain an advantage by showing effort, giving good rational as to why he should stay, and/or sucking up to the player agent. If it makes you feel any better, I wanted Phoenix because I thought they would be terrible after Kawahi left. In other words, you have done a pretty good with them. Sure didn't play a role when he didn't get Kwahi. Everyone understood what he was saying and I believe he posted more in two days than he did for the entirety since I joined the league. I see you and Ian's point, and I obviously did not see what he wrote to the player agent. All I am saying, however, is the language barrier did not do him any favors. I would write like essays why I should sign X player, and I am sure other people do the same thing.
|
|
|
Post by Jeremiah Hill on Mar 22, 2017 21:01:00 GMT
Sure didn't play a role when he didn't get Kwahi. Everyone understood what he was saying and I believe he posted more in two days than he did for the entirety since I joined the league. I see you and Ian's point, and I obviously did not see what he wrote to the player agent. All I am saying, however, is the language barrier did not do him any favors. I would write like essays why I should sign X player, and I am sure other people do the same thing. Honestly, Ian Noble if you want to post his offer for Khawi I don't care. Anyone that was in the actual running for Khawi at any time will immediately know they had a better chance than Dan did at getting him. That means Charles, James, Shane, Hana, there was a couple others I may be forgetting, ALL we immediately ahead of him because of how much sheer lack of effort he exemplified. His offer looked like something that you would send for a guy you're trying to fill out your bench with.
|
|
|
Post by Andrei Kirilenko on Mar 22, 2017 23:21:51 GMT
Honestly, Ian Noble if you want to post his offer for Khawi I don't care. Anyone that was in the actual running for Khawi at any time will immediately know they had a better chance than Dan did at getting him. That means Charles, James, Shane, Hana, there was a couple others I may be forgetting, ALL we immediately ahead of him because of how much sheer lack of effort he exemplified. His offer looked like something that you would send for a guy you're trying to fill out your bench with. IMO it doesn't matter. Why is 3+ years of commitment not a better indicator of loyalty? Especially when you know the GM doesn't speak English well.
|
|
Deleted
Posts: 0
Apr 24, 2024 20:01:37 GMT
|
Post by Deleted on Mar 22, 2017 23:52:52 GMT
Personally I've never seen Billy/Adam lose a trade yet so any reject on his account is out the window. Ian Noble Can you change my name to Billy Cosby?
|
|
Vlade Divac
Former Kings GM
Sophomore
Posts: 629
Feb 23, 2024 23:40:50 GMT
|
Post by Vlade Divac on Mar 23, 2017 1:41:06 GMT
Honestly, Ian Noble if you want to post his offer for Khawi I don't care. Anyone that was in the actual running for Khawi at any time will immediately know they had a better chance than Dan did at getting him. That means Charles, James, Shane, Hana, there was a couple others I may be forgetting, ALL we immediately ahead of him because of how much sheer lack of effort he exemplified. His offer looked like something that you would send for a guy you're trying to fill out your bench with. For the record, I am not blaming you in the slightest as the player agent. Rather, I just sympathy with Dan since public schools in the United States expect teachers to teach English at the secondary level to kids who cannot speak it! :0
|
|
|
Post by Walt Frazier on Mar 23, 2017 1:51:46 GMT
Honestly, Ian Noble if you want to post his offer for Khawi I don't care. Anyone that was in the actual running for Khawi at any time will immediately know they had a better chance than Dan did at getting him. That means Charles, James, Shane, Hana, there was a couple others I may be forgetting, ALL we immediately ahead of him because of how much sheer lack of effort he exemplified. His offer looked like something that you would send for a guy you're trying to fill out your bench with. IMO it doesn't matter. Why is 3+ years of commitment not a better indicator of loyalty? Especially when you know the GM doesn't speak English well. I mean honestly, it's just not that hard to hang onto a guy like Kawhi. If it's a low-level starter that the GM publicly has committed to almost unreasonably, sure, he gets a plus. But, Dan mostly just sat silently on his team and wow, he didn't trade one of the best 5 players in the league?! How loyal. I wasn't even involved in the Kawhi thing since I was pursuing him as well, but I don't think it's that difficult to hang onto a player like Kawhi and shouldn't really be worth that many points. You should still be heaping praise on him and telling him how you are building the team around him, telling him your plans for the future of the team. I guarantee I put in a ton more work on Favors than he did on Kawhi. Does that seem right? And, Danny Longley almost had Favors leave my team even after all that work.
|
|
Deleted
Posts: 0
Apr 24, 2024 20:01:37 GMT
|
Post by Deleted on Mar 23, 2017 1:54:47 GMT
I just want to point out that keeping Whiteside while also declaring my unrequited love for tanking makes me the most loyal owner in the league.
Except for the Mirotic scandal.
|
|