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Post by Brian Scalabrine on Feb 2, 2017 3:02:13 GMT
Current Rating: 87
Suggested Rating: 89
This guy is and has been a top 10 player for the last 2.5 seasons. Elite defender. Elite shooter. Terrific playmaker and one of the best finishers among guards in the league.
Unreal how good this guy got from where he was in Houston and Memphis. He's absolutly the best player on the Raptors IRL and that's saying something with the way Derozan is playing.
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Kevin Hollis
Former Thunder GM for 7 years
All Star
Posts: 2,838
Dec 16, 2022 11:27:40 GMT
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Post by Kevin Hollis on Feb 2, 2017 3:08:34 GMT
He is definitely not a top ten player. Good, but more top 20.
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Post by Brian Scalabrine on Feb 2, 2017 3:36:04 GMT
He is definitely not a top ten player. Good, but more top 20. Could not disagree more Kevin. I think Kyle Lowry is by far the best guard in the East and it isn't even close. I love Kyrie and IT and especially Wall but Lowry is a much better shooter, is more efficient overall, plays significantly better defense and carries just as big a load. CP3, Curry, Westbrook and Harden are the only guards I'd consider better. If anyone wants advanced stats to back up my point: Kyle Lowry TS%: 63.5% (9th overall in the league, 1st among guards ahead of Stephen Curry) RPM: 6.79 (2nd in the entire NBA) Win Shares: 8.5 (4th in the NBA) Offensive Rating: 125 (7th in the NBA, 2nd among guards) VORP: 4.1 (6th in the NBA, 3rd among guards) Box Plus Minus: 7.0 (9th in the NBA, 4th among guards) Every single advanced stat points to one thing: Kyle Lowry is an elite, top 10 player. Watching every Raptors-Celtics game and other Raptors game, I always come away feeling like I watched an elite talent.
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Post by James Kay on Feb 2, 2017 4:37:13 GMT
89
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Kevin Hollis
Former Thunder GM for 7 years
All Star
Posts: 2,838
Dec 16, 2022 11:27:40 GMT
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Post by Kevin Hollis on Feb 2, 2017 4:44:57 GMT
He is definitely not a top ten player. Good, but more top 20. Could not disagree more Kevin. I think Kyle Lowry is by far the best guard in the East and it isn't even close. I love Kyrie and IT and especially Wall but Lowry is a much better shooter, is more efficient overall, plays significantly better defense and carries just as big a load. CP3, Curry, Westbrook and Harden are the only guards I'd consider better. If anyone wants advanced stats to back up my point: Kyle Lowry TS%: 63.5% (9th overall in the league, 1st among guards ahead of Stephen Curry) RPM: 6.79 (2nd in the entire NBA) Win Shares: 8.5 (4th in the NBA) Offensive Rating: 125 (7th in the NBA, 2nd among guards) VORP: 4.1 (6th in the NBA, 3rd among guards) Box Plus Minus: 7.0 (9th in the NBA, 4th among guards) Every single advanced stat points to one thing: Kyle Lowry is an elite, top 10 player. Watching every Raptors-Celtics game and other Raptors game, I always come away feeling like I watched an elite talent. LeBron, Durant, Curry, Westbrook, Davis, Cousins, Draymond, Thompson, Paul, Kwahi. There is ten right there. I can keep going. George, Harden, KAT, Butler...Not to mention Lowry chokes in the playoffs every year.
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Post by Brian Scalabrine on Feb 2, 2017 5:56:34 GMT
Could not disagree more Kevin. I think Kyle Lowry is by far the best guard in the East and it isn't even close. I love Kyrie and IT and especially Wall but Lowry is a much better shooter, is more efficient overall, plays significantly better defense and carries just as big a load. CP3, Curry, Westbrook and Harden are the only guards I'd consider better. If anyone wants advanced stats to back up my point: Kyle Lowry TS%: 63.5% (9th overall in the league, 1st among guards ahead of Stephen Curry) RPM: 6.79 (2nd in the entire NBA) Win Shares: 8.5 (4th in the NBA) Offensive Rating: 125 (7th in the NBA, 2nd among guards) VORP: 4.1 (6th in the NBA, 3rd among guards) Box Plus Minus: 7.0 (9th in the NBA, 4th among guards) Every single advanced stat points to one thing: Kyle Lowry is an elite, top 10 player. Watching every Raptors-Celtics game and other Raptors game, I always come away feeling like I watched an elite talent. LeBron, Durant, Curry, Westbrook, Davis, Cousins, Draymond, Thompson, Paul, Kwahi. There is ten right there. I can keep going. George, Harden, KAT, Butler...Not to mention Lowry chokes in the playoffs every year. Then why does every stat say he's better than these guys? I'll take Kyle Lowry over Thompson, Butler, KAT, Cousins ALL DAY. He might be the most underrated player int he league, its crazy people don't recognize his greatness.
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Post by Jeremiah Hill on Feb 2, 2017 6:06:18 GMT
He's already top 15 or so in OVR I think I don't feel like he's underrated in our rankings the way that he is criminally underrated in real life.
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Kevin Hollis
Former Thunder GM for 7 years
All Star
Posts: 2,838
Dec 16, 2022 11:27:40 GMT
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Post by Kevin Hollis on Feb 2, 2017 6:59:36 GMT
LeBron, Durant, Curry, Westbrook, Davis, Cousins, Draymond, Thompson, Paul, Kwahi. There is ten right there. I can keep going. George, Harden, KAT, Butler...Not to mention Lowry chokes in the playoffs every year. Then why does every stat say he's better than these guys? I'll take Kyle Lowry over Thompson, Butler, KAT, Cousins ALL DAY. He might be the most underrated player int he league, its crazy people don't recognize his greatness. You might be the only person on the planet that would take him over those four.
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Post by Jeremiah Hill on Feb 2, 2017 7:09:52 GMT
You taking Lowry over Thompson is the reason why your team has 2 allstars on it and isn't in the playoffs.
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Post by Jeremiah Hill on Feb 2, 2017 7:10:45 GMT
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Post by Jeremiah Hill on Feb 2, 2017 7:17:10 GMT
"Would you take Lowry over Karl Towns"
Everyone in D5:
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Post by Hanamichi Sakuragi on Feb 2, 2017 7:42:43 GMT
Hmmm..
His 3PT should be around 95-98. (Via Metrics, he is the best shooter this season, so far) The other Offensive skills should not be touch. Example, he don't attempt that much midrange shots. His defensive skills is already fine. Physicals can be increase a little.
88 for me.
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Post by Alex English on Feb 2, 2017 9:00:32 GMT
89.
There is no way Thompson (or Draymond) is a better player than Lowry. Klay is partly the product of the Warriors system, the majority of his shots are assisted. Lowry creates most of his own and the Raptors offense. He's the big reason the Raptors are good. If you put Klay on his own team and made him the guy, he could never do it. Klay is like the Michael Jordan of the Kyle Korver or JJ Redick type of player. He's as good as it gets for that role, but he's still a sidekick type of player. I'd also rather have Lowry over KAT if I wanted to win this year, Towns and the whole TWolves aren't ready yet. We'd all rather have KAT on our team though because of his potential and long term value.
Anyway, Lowry is the shit. Great defense, runs the show for Toronto, and he's been on fire all season with how well he's shooting.
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Post by Jeremiah Hill on Feb 2, 2017 10:11:57 GMT
89. There is no way Thompson (or Draymond) is a better player than Lowry. Klay is partly the product of the Warriors system, the majority of his shots are assisted. Lowry creates most of his own and the Raptors offense. He's the big reason the Raptors are good. If you put Klay on his own team and made him the guy, he could never do it. Klay is like the Michael Jordan of the Kyle Korver or JJ Redick type of player. He's as good as it gets for that role, but he's still a sidekick type of player. I'd also rather have Lowry over KAT if I wanted to win this year, Towns and the whole TWolves aren't ready yet. We'd all rather have KAT on our team though because of his potential and long term value. Anyway, Lowry is the shit. Great defense, runs the show for Toronto, and he's been on fire all season with how well he's shooting. Klay Thompson is better on D than Lowry. I would argue that he's better than Steph as a player, who strangely has been immune to the whole "has a great team" stigma which is ya'lls fault mostly. Klay Thompson guards the best of the opposing teams PG, SG, and many times even SF every night. Lowry can't do that, period. That said I reviewed the stats and 89 is not out of the question. He's been better than Stephen at everything other than chucking shots.
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Post by Jeremiah Hill on Feb 2, 2017 10:15:12 GMT
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Post by Alex English on Feb 2, 2017 12:14:48 GMT
I would argue that he's better than Steph as a player That's nuts. And did we read the same article? This: and this: Do not match up with this: If anything I would say that Curry is a ball handling Korver thats worse on defense. Klay and Draymond keep this teem going. We can also look at games where Curry didn't play, making Klay the #1 option on offense for the game. Here are his stats in the 5 games without Curry since the 2014-15. 37 mpg, 28.0 ppg, 4.6 rpg, 1.8 apg, 0.4 spg, 0.4 bpg, 39.0 FG%, 40.0 3P%, 82.4 FT%, with 23.6 attempts per game He pretty much becomes an inefficient volume shooter. These are small sample sizes all around, but it matches up with what I think about Klay, and I just don't see your side of it.
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Kevin Hollis
Former Thunder GM for 7 years
All Star
Posts: 2,838
Dec 16, 2022 11:27:40 GMT
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Post by Kevin Hollis on Feb 2, 2017 12:17:12 GMT
89. There is no way Thompson (or Draymond) is a better player than Lowry. Klay is partly the product of the Warriors system, the majority of his shots are assisted. Lowry creates most of his own and the Raptors offense. He's the big reason the Raptors are good. If you put Klay on his own team and made him the guy, he could never do it. Klay is like the Michael Jordan of the Kyle Korver or JJ Redick type of player. He's as good as it gets for that role, but he's still a sidekick type of player. I'd also rather have Lowry over KAT if I wanted to win this year, Towns and the whole TWolves aren't ready yet. We'd all rather have KAT on our team though because of his potential and long term value. Anyway, Lowry is the shit. Great defense, runs the show for Toronto, and he's been on fire all season with how well he's shooting. Klay could possibly be one of the greatest shooters ever in the NBA. Klay can definitely make his own opportunities and he does so quite often. You take him out of the shadow of the gsw team and he would be a bonafide superstar like harden after his okc exit. Thompson is probably the best defensive guard in the entire league. Being s cavs fan, I hate draymond green. However, if you ask me who I would rather go up against it would be definitely be Lowry. Green can guard any position and his value to gsw is unmeasureable. Green and Thompson are great players on a historically great team. Lowry is a good player on an above average team. Also, if you ask me who I would want in a s playoff game, Lowry or Irving, I take Irving "All day".
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Post by Alex English on Feb 2, 2017 12:47:36 GMT
Klay could possibly be one of the greatest shooters ever in the NBA. Klay can definitely make his own opportunities and he does so quite often. You take him out of the shadow of the gsw team and he would be a bonafide superstar like harden after his okc exit. Thompson is probably the best defensive guard in the entire league. Being s cavs fan, I hate draymond green. However, if you ask me who I would rather go up against it would be definitely be Lowry. Green can guard any position and his value to gsw is unmeasureable. Green and Thompson are great players on a historically great team. Lowry is a good player on an above average team. Also, if you ask me who I would want in a s playoff game, Lowry or Irving, I take Irving "All day". You can take possibly out of it. Klay is absolutely one of the greatest shooters ever. I still think he benefits a lot from being on the team he's on. Klay as the #1 option on a team is a mediocre team that might make playoffs as a 6-8 seed. 85% of his field goals are assisted, compared to 33% for Lowry. Klay relies a lot on offense created by other players and the team as a whole. Lowry makes shit happen on his own. Draymond is the type of guy that has to have good players around him in order to be successful. He'd be one of the worst franchise players in the NBA, and a hypothetical team with 5 Draymond's would be worse than the Brooklyn Nets. He's like Rondo was back in Boston. I was never a big fan of him and thought he benefited from playing with the big 3 and the fact that he hasn't done anything worthwhile since leaving Boston doesn't surprise me at all. That's exactly how I see Draymond. That said, I agree that his value to the Warriors is immeasurable, but it's a different kind of value that he brings to that team. It's something that doesn't have much value independent of everyone else that surrounds him.
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Post by Brian Scalabrine on Feb 2, 2017 14:14:03 GMT
Do you guys have any stats to backup your arguments? Pretty much every stat disagrees with you and says Lowry is better than those guys.
Also Lowry is a better defender than Thompson imo and it isn't close. And I think klay is a really good defender
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Kevin Hollis
Former Thunder GM for 7 years
All Star
Posts: 2,838
Dec 16, 2022 11:27:40 GMT
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Post by Kevin Hollis on Feb 2, 2017 16:51:38 GMT
Thompson guards the best player every game unless the size comparison is too large. The stats don't count for who is being guarded. Lowry typically stays on whatever point guard he is going against. That is the point. Also, you can't compare stats to players like Cousins and KAT to that of Lowry -- that just doesn't make any sense. Not one player ranking site has Lowry has a top 10 NBA player. We aren't talking all about stats here, we are talking about perceived greatness and ability.
Also, all of this I am saying doesn't mean I am against a player rating increase. I am just pointing out the fact that he is not a top 10 player.
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Post by Brian Scalabrine on Feb 2, 2017 17:41:38 GMT
Thompson guards the best player every game unless the size comparison is too large. The stats don't count for who is being guarded. Lowry typically stays on whatever point guard he is going against.
Every time I've watched Lowry, he's matched up against the best guard on the opposing team. If the SG is the better player, he guards them instead. Not to mention he plays a lot of minutes with Cory Joseph and he definitely guards the SG in those lineups. I totally disagree that Klay Thompson has tougher covers than Lowry.
Kyle Lowry is imo an all-nba defender
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Kevin Hollis
Former Thunder GM for 7 years
All Star
Posts: 2,838
Dec 16, 2022 11:27:40 GMT
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Post by Kevin Hollis on Feb 2, 2017 18:19:04 GMT
Thompson guards the best player every game unless the size comparison is too large. The stats don't count for who is being guarded. Lowry typically stays on whatever point guard he is going against.
Every time I've watched Lowry, he's matched up against the best guard on the opposing team. If the SG is the better player, he guards them instead. Not to mention he plays a lot of minutes with Cory Joseph and he definitely guards the SG in those lineups. I totally disagree that Klay Thompson has tougher covers than Lowry.
Kyle Lowry is imo an all-nba defender I agree with a lot of what you said except the second to last sentence. Thompson plays in the west, he definitely has the harder matchups, at least before Durant came along.
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Post by Jared Montini on Feb 2, 2017 18:24:25 GMT
88 just raise the 3 point shooting a little bit. He's shooting very efficient this season but to me isn't better than IT Wall or Kyrie
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Post by James Kay on Feb 2, 2017 18:55:06 GMT
LeBron, Durant, Curry, Westbrook, Davis, Cousins, Draymond, Thompson, Paul, Kwahi. There is ten right there. I can keep going. George, Harden, KAT, Butler...Not to mention Lowry chokes in the playoffs every year. Then why does every stat say he's better than these guys? I'll take Kyle Lowry over Thompson, Butler, KAT, Cousins ALL DAY. He might be the most underrated player int he league, its crazy people don't recognize his greatness. Lowry is really good. But top 10 might be pushing it. I’d certainly agree with top 15, but all 9 of these players are without question better than Lowry: LBJ, Kawhi, Curry, Durant, Harden, Westbrook, CP3, Demarcus, Davis. So then it becomes a fight for that 10th spot between Lowry and names like Butler, IT, Giannis, Paul George, Kyrie, Love, Draymond, Klay, Wall, Gasol. Is Lowry better than all of them? I guess arguably. But just say top 15 and save everyone this debate.
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Post by Bryan Colangelo on Feb 2, 2017 20:10:08 GMT
89
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Post by Jeremiah Hill on Feb 2, 2017 20:49:06 GMT
Klay could possibly be one of the greatest shooters ever in the NBA. Klay can definitely make his own opportunities and he does so quite often. You take him out of the shadow of the gsw team and he would be a bonafide superstar like harden after his okc exit. Thompson is probably the best defensive guard in the entire league. Being s cavs fan, I hate draymond green. However, if you ask me who I would rather go up against it would be definitely be Lowry. Green can guard any position and his value to gsw is unmeasureable. Green and Thompson are great players on a historically great team. Lowry is a good player on an above average team. Also, if you ask me who I would want in a s playoff game, Lowry or Irving, I take Irving "All day". You can take possibly out of it. Klay is absolutely one of the greatest shooters ever. I still think he benefits a lot from being on the team he's on. Klay as the #1 option on a team is a mediocre team that might make playoffs as a 6-8 seed. 85% of his field goals are assisted, compared to 33% for Lowry. Klay relies a lot on offense created by other players and the team as a whole. Lowry makes shit happen on his own. Draymond is the type of guy that has to have good players around him in order to be successful. He'd be one of the worst franchise players in the NBA, and a hypothetical team with 5 Draymond's would be worse than the Brooklyn Nets. He's like Rondo was back in Boston. I was never a big fan of him and thought he benefited from playing with the big 3 and the fact that he hasn't done anything worthwhile since leaving Boston doesn't surprise me at all. That's exactly how I see Draymond. That said, I agree that his value to the Warriors is immeasurable, but it's a different kind of value that he brings to that team. It's something that doesn't have much value independent of everyone else that surrounds him. I think that Draymond makes a meaningful impact on any team. I don't want him to be the best player on my team I agree with you on that.
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Post by Jeremiah Hill on Feb 2, 2017 20:54:59 GMT
Thompson guards the best player every game unless the size comparison is too large. The stats don't count for who is being guarded. Lowry typically stays on whatever point guard he is going against.
Every time I've watched Lowry, he's matched up against the best guard on the opposing team. If the SG is the better player, he guards them instead. Not to mention he plays a lot of minutes with Cory Joseph and he definitely guards the SG in those lineups. I totally disagree that Klay Thompson has tougher covers than Lowry.
Kyle Lowry is imo an all-nba defender
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I already put 89 as my rating. I agree that he is good and haven't looked at his stats that much. I just really like Klay Thompson as a basketball player. I just hope the Cavs can keep it together for a few more years because looking at the salary page. Curry is gonna be getting paid 40 million a year. I think that Durant will as well. They may look to trade Klay so they can afford a bench. I think the bottom falls out under that team and the Cavs win it again next season regardless of what happens this year.
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Post by Walt Frazier on Feb 2, 2017 22:17:36 GMT
89
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Kevin Hollis
Former Thunder GM for 7 years
All Star
Posts: 2,838
Dec 16, 2022 11:27:40 GMT
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Post by Kevin Hollis on Feb 2, 2017 23:35:47 GMT
Lowry is really good. But top 10 might be pushing it. I’d certainly agree with top 15, but all 9 of these players are without question better than Lowry: LBJ, Kawhi, Curry, Durant, Harden, Westbrook, CP3, Demarcus, Davis. So then it becomes a fight for that 10th spot between Lowry and names like Butler, IT, Giannis, Paul George, Kyrie, Love, Draymond, Klay, Wall, Gasol. Is Lowry better than all of them? I guess arguably. But just say top 15 and save everyone this debate. Don't ruin our argument thread.
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Post by Chauncey Billups on Jul 23, 2017 6:26:25 GMT
Can't believe so many people voted 89. I'll vote 86. Not sure if I should start a new thread or not, I happily will if I have to.
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