Glenn Robinson
 Milwaukee Bucks
Starter
Posts: 1,226
Nov 22, 2024 4:29:32 GMT
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Post by Glenn Robinson on Jan 4, 2017 14:56:01 GMT
I'm a half season ticket holder for the Bucks. I can see Giannis just about once a week. I don't have the on/off stats in front of me right now, but I know he makes the Bucks much better and whenever he's out of the game because of fouls or rest, opposing teams typically make their run in that time. His scoring is up, his jumper has improved, he's one of the better defenders both as a help defender and out on the perimeter. He can also play 5 positions throughout the game, which he does quite regularly now.
I'm okay with people wanting to wait on giving him a big ratings boost. There has been good discussion back and forth. For me though, he's definitely warranted a 90+ rating. It's just a matter of when he gets it here in D5.
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Deleted
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Nov 30, 2024 15:44:03 GMT
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Post by Deleted on Jan 4, 2017 15:25:12 GMT
Where did I say the Bucks are trash? I said they're not a threat. A 90+ rating designates someone as a franchise player, and franchise players can almost singlehandedly make teams competitive. Giannis has not shown an ability to do that yet. My other point was that we're only 30 games into this season and I want to see him do it all the way until the end. An 86 is hardly a bad rating too... Players demonstrate their talent through stats and wins. The first doesn't do much good if the second is happening. With this logic you're saying AD isn't a 90+ player... |
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Post by Ian Noble on Jan 4, 2017 15:38:31 GMT
If a team's W/L record sucks but they've got, for instance, prime Kevin Garnett on the TWolves, you can still rate someone higher than a 90, they just have to be at, or near, the level of a prime Kevin Garnett or Anthony Davis.
Giannis is amazing, I watch most Bucks games, but patience is a virtue and he's got the rest of the season to prove he's 90+
Sticking with 88, and that's generous
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Deleted
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Nov 30, 2024 15:44:03 GMT
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Post by Deleted on Jan 4, 2017 15:43:42 GMT
Goes to show that even in the 2013 Draft, which everyone thought was rubbish, you still get a Giannis Antetokounmpo and Rudy Gobert out of it. *C.J McCollum was the only pick in the lottery who I think was worth it, I think Steven Adams and Porter Jr are okay though. |
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Post by Jeremiah Hill on Jan 4, 2017 15:44:28 GMT
Where did I say the Bucks are trash? I said they're not a threat. A 90+ rating designates someone as a franchise player, and franchise players can almost singlehandedly make teams competitive. Giannis has not shown an ability to do that yet. My other point was that we're only 30 games into this season and I want to see him do it all the way until the end. An 86 is hardly a bad rating too... Players demonstrate their talent through stats and wins. The first doesn't do much good if the second is happening. With this logic you're saying AD isn't a 90+ player... You know, I'm kind of with Billy on this one now. I don't think there was a person out there who didn't look at Middleton as their clear #2 guy on the team after Giannis. Well he's been gone most of the season and they are doing alright especially considering that the east is as competitive as its been in a long time in my opinion. If they have Middleton back they are probably top 4 in the East relatively easily because I think they are better than Atlanta and Charlotte at full strength. I'm not changing my vote but I think he's gonna end up higher than what I proposed initially and I'm OK with it. No need for us to debate it for a month. |
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Post by Jeremiah Hill on Jan 4, 2017 15:48:46 GMT
If a team's W/L record sucks but they've got, for instance, prime Kevin Garnett on the TWolves, you can still rate someone higher than a 90, they just have to be at, or near, the level of a prime Kevin Garnett or Anthony Davis. Giannis is amazing, I watch most Bucks games, but patience is a virtue and he's got the rest of the season to prove he's 90+ Sticking with 88, and that's generous Those Garnett teams weren't that bad, in 03-04 they made the Conference Finals and came in 4th in the league in regular season record. Sam Cassel, Latrell Sprewell, Fred Hoidberg, Wally Sckzerbiak, Michael Olowokandi. They had some alright guys. |
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Post by James Kay on Jan 4, 2017 15:55:57 GMT
Goes to show that even in the 2013 Draft, which everyone thought was rubbish, you still get a Giannis Antetokounmpo and Rudy Gobert out of it. *C.J McCollum was the only pick in the lottery who I think was worth it, I think Steven Adams and Porter Jr are okay though. Noel is good, too!  |
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Deleted
Posts: 0
Nov 30, 2024 15:44:03 GMT
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Post by Deleted on Jan 4, 2017 15:56:36 GMT
I'm just voting on the assumption that it's gonna take like 9 months for this rating to come out. 9 months from now everyone would be voting him a 94, so I'm just being pro-active.
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Post by Brian Scalabrine on Jan 4, 2017 16:59:59 GMT
Thinks 15.5, 5.5, and 6 is a 79 for Tyreke, thinks 21, 8, 6, 2, 2 is an 86 for Giannis. But somehow thinks 5.6, 3.2, 3.3 is an 80 for Iggy There is so much more to players than points, rebounds and assists |
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Deleted
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Nov 30, 2024 15:44:03 GMT
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Post by Deleted on Jan 4, 2017 17:06:56 GMT
Thinks 15.5, 5.5, and 6 is a 79 for Tyreke, thinks 21, 8, 6, 2, 2 is an 86 for Giannis. But somehow thinks 5.6, 3.2, 3.3 is an 80 for Iggy There is so much more to players than points, rebounds and assists Yes... Giannis has all of that too! |
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Post by Walt Frazier on Jan 4, 2017 17:13:50 GMT
I'm just voting on the assumption that it's gonna take like 9 months for this rating to come out. 9 months from now everyone would be voting him a 94, so I'm just being pro-active. Surprised if it takes 9 weeks. Likely by the end of January or early February at latest. Could be sooner. Would be sooner with more help from the RC but I need to delegate responsibilities better and make sure everyone in there has time to help with what I need help with. |
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Post by Alex English on Jan 4, 2017 17:34:25 GMT
What I asked you in response to your comment about being 90+ and being a threat... Ok, I'm not going to quote such a huge comment, but after reading it I can understand some of your points much better. Maybe 'threat' is the wrong word. The point is that I have to believe in a team's success. I do believe in the Wizards success, that group has won a playoff series. I do believe in the Pacers success, they're much better than 18-18 on paper and I think it's taking some time for them to figure things out with so many new players and a new coach. I don't believe in the Knicks success, they're mediocre at best, Rose is never going to be that guy again, Melo hasn't been the real Melo since 2013-14 and at 32 he might never be that guy again. Melo is currently getting a decrease, and Kristaps increase would be limited by the Knicks team, except nobody wants him to get a 90+ rating, so it's kind of irrelevant. I also don't believe in the Bucks success yet. This group hasn't accomplished a damn thing yet and the Bucks haven't finished above .500 since 2009-10. I was ready to believe after the 2014-15 season, but then last year happened. I think they can, but until they do, I'm going to be patient. Same thing with Giannis individually. He could have a streak of poor play over the next 10 games, and then we're still just halfway through the year, but Giannis looks quite different as a player. I don't think this will happen, but Giannis is still so young, that it might, and I wouldn't be shocked by it. There just isn't enough of a body of work for me to go into the high 80s with him. |
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Post by Alex English on Jan 4, 2017 17:42:10 GMT
With this logic you're saying AD isn't a 90+ player... Not really, that team has been injured non-stop for a year and a half. I believe that when they're healthy they're a very good team that can win 50+ games. I actually bet money on the Pelicans win total this season because the Vegas line was a joke at 37.5 wins. Even with how things have gone this year, I still think they'll beat that mark. When they're healthy they're fine. With Jrue playing they're 12-9 and removing their 0-8 start they're 14-14. The problem is that when Troy Daniels is your second best player, you're fucked. But, if the Pelicans got healthy, and were still underwhelming, then yea, I would have to re-evaluate my opinion of Davis. |
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Post by Alex English on Jan 4, 2017 17:44:58 GMT
I'm just voting on the assumption that it's gonna take like 9 months for this rating to come out. 9 months from now everyone would be voting him a 94, so I'm just being pro-active. This is actually the most convincing argument I've heard for why I should raise my vote. Things have moved fairly quickly when it comes to stockwatch changes though, so it will probably be fine, and we can re-visit Giannis at the end of the season when he's proven his ability and accomplished something real. |
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Kevin Hollis
Former Thunder GM for 7 years
All Star
Posts: 2,838 
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Post by Kevin Hollis on Jan 4, 2017 18:06:17 GMT
There is so much more to players than points, rebounds and assists Yes... Giannis has all of that too! And Iggy has none of it. |
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Post by Hanamichi Sakuragi on Jan 5, 2017 0:08:26 GMT
In offense, you need at least 45 points to bump his Aware, FG, 3PT, FT, Inside and Dunk.
In defense, at least 30 points for steals, blocks and rebounding.
In physicals, at least 30 points too.
I want to be conservative though. So, 89.
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Post by Charles Barkley on Jan 5, 2017 0:29:03 GMT
In offense, you need at least 45 points to bump his Aware, FG, 3PT, FT, Inside and Dunk. In defense, at least 30 points for steals, blocks and rebounding. In physicals, at least 30 points too. I want to be conservative though. So, 89. I applaud you on the fact that you did your vote this way, in a very smart manner. I disagree with being conservative on it though, as you're giving him 6 OVR points, and just said he needs 8, but still this is the best way to vote on a player. |
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Post by Charles Barkley on Jan 5, 2017 1:07:32 GMT
What I asked you in response to your comment about being 90+ and being a threat... Ok, I'm not going to quote such a huge comment, but after reading it I can understand some of your points much better. Maybe 'threat' is the wrong word. The point is that I have to believe in a team's success. I do believe in the Wizards success, that group has won a playoff series. I do believe in the Pacers success, they're much better than 18-18 on paper and I think it's taking some time for them to figure things out with so many new players and a new coach. I don't believe in the Knicks success, they're mediocre at best, Rose is never going to be that guy again, Melo hasn't been the real Melo since 2013-14 and at 32 he might never be that guy again. Melo is currently getting a decrease, and Kristaps increase would be limited by the Knicks team, except nobody wants him to get a 90+ rating, so it's kind of irrelevant. I also don't believe in the Bucks success yet. This group hasn't accomplished a damn thing yet and the Bucks haven't finished above .500 since 2009-10. I was ready to believe after the 2014-15 season, but then last year happened. I think they can, but until they do, I'm going to be patient. Same thing with Giannis individually. He could have a streak of poor play over the next 10 games, and then we're still just halfway through the year, but Giannis looks quite different as a player. I don't think this will happen, but Giannis is still so young, that it might, and I wouldn't be shocked by it. There just isn't enough of a body of work for me to go into the high 80s with him. No I think threat is the right word. It's just threatening to what? Giannis is a force on the court. Is he going to lead his team to the Larry O'Brien? Probability says the odds are against him, as they are against almost everyone. And I also think the idea of a player being a threat is archaic with the way teams are built around a big 3 now. Ray Allen and Paul Peirce weren't threats on their own until they joined forces with Garnett, who was a threat already. And when the Bucks are in the ECSF or ECF, it won't be because of Giannis alone. He has Parker and Middleton. I was thinking about this last night after I replied. If you were to switch Giannis with George, are the Bucks worse or better, Pacers worse or better? And doing that with other players and Giannis as well. Its kind of difficult to fathom, because Giannis does everything for the Bucks. If you put AD in for Giannis, that's the only player I think the Bucks stay the same. Because while you may be without a facilitator offensively, Delly can handle that role, and AD brings the crazy defensive qualities and inside moves. But if you put Giannis on the Pels, I think they are much better. Giannis can be a facilitator some possessions, rotating with Tyreke and Jrue. Which is I think where they struggle. When Tyreke goes down, Jrue isn't a good enough facilitator. He's a fine point guard, and would thrive in a non-facilitation role, and has in the past. Giannis for PG is interesting. Again, the Bucks lose their facilitator, but I think PG is very good at that role, as he has had to do it for the Pacers before. But I don't think he is as good as Giannis, if George had to play for the Bucks, I think the Bucks would be worse. I think the Pacers would be better, because again, they lack a good facilitator with the ball. But as I was writing that last sentence I forgot they traded for Teague, but the 2015-2016 Pacers would be better with Giannis. |
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Deleted
Posts: 0
Nov 30, 2024 15:44:03 GMT
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Post by Deleted on Jan 5, 2017 1:19:10 GMT
*C.J McCollum was the only pick in the lottery who I think was worth it, I think Steven Adams and Porter Jr are okay though. Noel is good, too! Hes decent but not a top 5 pick out of that draft if I redid it, but MAYBE.  |
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Deleted
Posts: 0
Nov 30, 2024 15:44:03 GMT
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Post by Deleted on Jan 5, 2017 13:39:45 GMT
What's the difference between Giannis performance since the AB last year, and prime LBJ?
Prime LBJ was becoming a coach on the field, was a bit better of a facilitator (maybe just better teammates), and had a 3 point shot.
Giannis is a better rebounder and better rim protector, better at stealing, and takes care of the ball almost as well.
Giannis is barely worse right now than prime LBJ.
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Glenn Robinson
Milwaukee Bucks
Starter
Posts: 1,226
Nov 22, 2024 4:29:32 GMT
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Post by Glenn Robinson on Jan 5, 2017 13:50:07 GMT
I'll just leave this here.
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Post by Julius Erving on Jan 5, 2017 14:06:31 GMT
89
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Post by Andrei Kirilenko on Jan 5, 2017 14:38:27 GMT
I know the hype train is strong with Giannis right now, but comparing him to prime Lebron is insane. Prime Lebron has made 6 straight NBA finals, including one in his fourth year in the league. Giannis is currently in his fourth year in the league. If he can lead the Bucks to the finals this season, I will gladly support Lebron comparisons and a 90+ rating. For now though, he can barely lead the Bucks to a winning record. It seems like we're forgetting just how dominant Lebron James is/was, and how dominant you need to be to have a 90+ rating.
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Deleted
Posts: 0
Nov 30, 2024 15:44:03 GMT
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Post by Deleted on Jan 5, 2017 15:01:32 GMT
I know the hype train is strong with Giannis right now, but comparing him to prime Lebron is insane. Prime Lebron has made 6 straight NBA finals, including one in his fourth year in the league. Giannis is currently in his fourth year in the league. If he can lead the Bucks to the finals this season, I will gladly support Lebron comparisons and a 90+ rating. For now though, he can barely lead the Bucks to a winning record. It seems like we're forgetting just how dominant Lebron James is/was, and how dominant you need to be to have a 90+ rating. Based on their point differential and SOS the Bucks are the 8th best team in the league right now. Giannis' teammates are beyond shitty. Jabari is the next best player on his team and Jabari will never be a starting player on a championship squad. He has too many exploitable flaws ala Klove. Giannis is basically worth 2 players on the court at the same time. This is like when Whiteside started playing crazy good and it took 14 months to get his rating to where his level of play was. If a player explodes like this there isn't any reason to be so slow in rating them to their performance. It's pretty easy to tell the flashes in the pans from the real deals. Giannis is the real deal, he is a top 5 player in the league this year easily, and there is no reason he is gonna suddenly get worse. p.s. confirmation bias |
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Post by Andrei Kirilenko on Jan 5, 2017 15:40:26 GMT
I know the hype train is strong with Giannis right now, but comparing him to prime Lebron is insane. Prime Lebron has made 6 straight NBA finals, including one in his fourth year in the league. Giannis is currently in his fourth year in the league. If he can lead the Bucks to the finals this season, I will gladly support Lebron comparisons and a 90+ rating. For now though, he can barely lead the Bucks to a winning record. It seems like we're forgetting just how dominant Lebron James is/was, and how dominant you need to be to have a 90+ rating. Based on their point differential and SOS the Bucks are the 8th best team in the league right now. Giannis' teammates are beyond shitty. Jabari is the next best player on his team and Jabari will never be a starting player on a championship squad. He has too many exploitable flaws ala Klove. Giannis is basically worth 2 players on the court at the same time. This is like when Whiteside started playing crazy good and it took 14 months to get his rating to where his level of play was. If a player explodes like this there isn't any reason to be so slow in rating them to their performance. It's pretty easy to tell the flashes in the pans from the real deals. Giannis is the real deal, he is a top 5 player in the league this year easily, and there is no reason he is gonna suddenly get worse. p.s. confirmation bias I think Giannis has a better team now than Lebron did in year 4 when he made the finals. Daniel Gibson Aleksander Pavlovic Lebron James Drew Gooden Zydrunas Ilgauskas vs Matthew Dellavedova Tony Snell Giannis Antetekoumpo Jabari Parker Jon Henson Gibson/Pavlovic and Delly/Snell all four are really bench players who were elevated to a starting role due to injuries. I think those backcourts are pretty even. Gooden vs Parker is close, but Jabari has been balling this year. I would give the edge to Jabari. Ilgauskas is definitely better than Henson. Anyway, when Giannis gets Middleton back, there is no argument for not having good teammates around him. Plus, they got Monroe on the bench. Lebron had no one on the bench... Larry Hughes I guess. |
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Post by Andrei Kirilenko on Jan 5, 2017 15:42:00 GMT
For the record, I'm not arguing that Giannis isn't a good player and won't one day be 90+. I don't want you guys to come back to this thread in the future and say I was a Giannis hater, because I'm not. I just think we are jumping the gun. He has to prove something before we put him in that superstar level.
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Post by Charles Barkley on Jan 5, 2017 16:52:10 GMT
I'll just leave this here. I like how Walt says a few plays in to the game, "Giannis is a like a point forward out there,has the ball in his hands alot." Like he has no idea. |
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Post by Jeremiah Hill on Jan 5, 2017 17:46:20 GMT
Based on their point differential and SOS the Bucks are the 8th best team in the league right now. Giannis' teammates are beyond shitty. Jabari is the next best player on his team and Jabari will never be a starting player on a championship squad. He has too many exploitable flaws ala Klove. Giannis is basically worth 2 players on the court at the same time. This is like when Whiteside started playing crazy good and it took 14 months to get his rating to where his level of play was. If a player explodes like this there isn't any reason to be so slow in rating them to their performance. It's pretty easy to tell the flashes in the pans from the real deals. Giannis is the real deal, he is a top 5 player in the league this year easily, and there is no reason he is gonna suddenly get worse. p.s. confirmation bias I think Giannis has a better team now than Lebron did in year 4 when he made the finals. Daniel Gibson Aleksander Pavlovic Lebron James Drew Gooden Zydrunas Ilgauskas vs Matthew Dellavedova Tony Snell Giannis Antetekoumpo Jabari Parker Jon Henson Gibson/Pavlovic and Delly/Snell all four are really bench players who were elevated to a starting role due to injuries. I think those backcourts are pretty even. Gooden vs Parker is close, but Jabari has been balling this year. I would give the edge to Jabari. Ilgauskas is definitely better than Henson. Anyway, when Giannis gets Middleton back, there is no argument for not having good teammates around him. Plus, they got Monroe on the bench. Lebron had no one on the bench... Larry Hughes I guess. This is all stupid because no one is saying Giannis is a 99ovr. |
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Chris Mullin
 Golden State Warriors
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Posts: 1,303
Feb 19, 2024 21:58:28 GMT
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Post by Chris Mullin on Jan 8, 2017 21:44:31 GMT
90
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Post by Jared Montini on Jan 16, 2017 23:39:53 GMT
89
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