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Post by Jeremiah Hill on Dec 29, 2016 2:58:46 GMT
Current Rating: 77
Suggested Rating: 79
13pt, 5 rpg, 2 ast, 1 stl
He's having a career year in terms of offensive efficiency, boost to 3pt%, fg% ft%, I assume he's already good on defense so this is just bringing his offense to where it needs to be. He's 10th in the league in true shooting %.
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Post by Brian Scalabrine on Dec 29, 2016 3:17:59 GMT
82
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Post by Walt Frazier on Dec 29, 2016 5:16:46 GMT
These do-everything guys need more points to than they generally get. Especially if they're efficiently scoring and especially if they play defense.
Looked at specific ratings below, changing from an 82 to an 81.
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Kevin Hollis
Former Thunder GM for 7 years
All Star
Posts: 2,838 
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Post by Kevin Hollis on Dec 29, 2016 6:09:07 GMT
80
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Post by James Kay on Dec 29, 2016 6:31:31 GMT
82.5
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Post by Jeremiah Hill on Dec 29, 2016 6:38:16 GMT
Lets remember guys he's the 4th option on a pretty good team. Seeing 82s and 83s and then the same people are voting the same 82 or 83s on Avery Bradley whos playing a bigger role and doing just as good.
Doesn't add up.
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Deleted
Posts: 0
Nov 30, 2024 15:55:20 GMT
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Post by Deleted on Dec 29, 2016 12:38:01 GMT
80
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Post by Alex English on Dec 29, 2016 16:07:26 GMT
79
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Post by Charles Barkley on Dec 30, 2016 3:09:11 GMT
He puts up 13/2/5 a night. If a guy put those numbers up, shooting what Crowder does from the field, and league average at 3, with league average at defense, he'd be a 74 or so. Are we really out here saying that because Crowder plays above average defense and shoots the 3 well, its worth 8 points? Come on.
78
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Post by Brian Scalabrine on Dec 30, 2016 3:25:14 GMT
Crowder plays above average defense Jae is an all-nba caliber defender. I watch lots of Celtics games and he consistently shuts down the best wing player on the other team while Bradley shuts down the best guard. Those 2 are why the C's have had such a great defense the last 2 years while playing guys like Isiah Thomas, olynk, jerebko and Zeller major minutes |
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Post by Jeremiah Hill on Dec 30, 2016 4:24:03 GMT
Crowder plays above average defense Jae is an all-nba caliber defender. I watch lots of Celtics games and he consistently shuts down the best wing player on the other team while Bradley shuts down the best guard. Those 2 are why the C's have had such a great defense the last 2 years while playing guys like Isiah Thomas, olynk, jerebko and Zeller major minutes Just by watching this game, Smart has been on LeBron most of the game not Jae Crowder. Jae Crowder to me is tough and I love him, but he's not over an 80 for me. |
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Post by Walt Frazier on Dec 30, 2016 4:27:42 GMT
He puts up 13/2/5 a night. If a guy put those numbers up, shooting what Crowder does from the field, and league average at 3, with league average at defense, he'd be a 74 or so. Are we really out here saying that because Crowder plays above average defense and shoots the 3 well, its worth 8 points? Come on. 78 13/2/5 is a 74? I don't think evidence of your own votes would back that up. On bad percentages, that's a 75-76. Average percentages, it's 77-78. Jae is at 48.0/40.8/88.5 That puts him in the 78-79 or 80 range even if he was like, Channing Frye. But, he's more athletic in more areas than a guy like that. And, he's a great defender. Your starting point (74) seems low to the level of you just trying to make a point or trying to bring down a player's rating for some odd reason. Can't imagine why. |
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Post by Jeremiah Hill on Dec 30, 2016 4:39:52 GMT
He puts up 13/2/5 a night. If a guy put those numbers up, shooting what Crowder does from the field, and league average at 3, with league average at defense, he'd be a 74 or so. Are we really out here saying that because Crowder plays above average defense and shoots the 3 well, its worth 8 points? Come on. 78 13/2/5 is a 74? I don't think evidence of your own votes would back that up. On bad percentages, that's a 75-76. Average percentages, it's 77-78. Jae is at 48.0/40.8/88.5 That puts him in the 78-79 or 80 range even if he was like, Channing Frye. But, he's more athletic in more areas than a guy like that. And, he's a great defender. Your starting point (74) seems low to the level of you just trying to make a point or trying to bring down a player's rating for some odd reason. Can't imagine why. I only challenge your rating of an 82. He's good. But its just that, he's real good but he's the 4th option on a good team. His newfound efficiency is merely a result of adding another weapon in Horford and the emergence of Avery Bradley as a legit 2nd option. Crowder hangs out and makes open shots. That's what he's supposed to do. He'll do good in the sim if he's the 4th option on a good team as well. |
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Post by Walt Frazier on Dec 30, 2016 4:46:53 GMT
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Post by Charles Barkley on Dec 30, 2016 4:53:56 GMT
Crowder plays above average defense Jae is an all-nba caliber defender. I watch lots of Celtics games and he consistently shuts down the best wing player on the other team while Bradley shuts down the best guard. Those 2 are why the C's have had such a great defense the last 2 years while playing guys like Isiah Thomas, olynk, jerebko and Zeller major minutes He's never made an all-nba defensive team doe... What is "All-NBA Caliber"? What does that mean? Top 10 defensively at his position? Top 10 NBA Wing Defenders: Kawhi Butler George LeBron MKG Klay Tony Allen Avery Bradley Draymond Carroll Bazemore And there's more as well. I understand defense is pretty subjective, as DWS doesn't exactly quantify it properly in a consensus that everyone agrees on, but please stop saying he is an All-NBA defender. Last time I checked, LeBron, Kawhi, Butler, George are in the League. |
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Post by Charles Barkley on Dec 30, 2016 4:58:27 GMT
See, it says he is on the verge of becoming the third star. And if he is a better scorer than Dray, why is Crowder only scoring 3 more points per game? Dray is the 4th fiddle to three of the best scorers in the league, maybe the 3 best scorers. Crowder plays with who? Isaiah Thomas and Al Horford. You would have to think that Jae would have more opportunity to score as he is the 3rd option and his teammates aren't carrying all of the scoring load. I think he is properly rated. He is a good three point shooter and a good defender. You don't need 82 OVR points to demonstrate that in the rating process. You probably don't even need 80. |
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Post by Charles Barkley on Dec 30, 2016 5:06:13 GMT
He puts up 13/2/5 a night. If a guy put those numbers up, shooting what Crowder does from the field, and league average at 3, with league average at defense, he'd be a 74 or so. Are we really out here saying that because Crowder plays above average defense and shoots the 3 well, its worth 8 points? Come on. 78 13/2/5 is a 74? I don't think evidence of your own votes would back that up. On bad percentages, that's a 75-76. Average percentages, it's 77-78. Jae is at 48.0/40.8/88.5 That puts him in the 78-79 or 80 range even if he was like, Channing Frye. But, he's more athletic in more areas than a guy like that. And, he's a great defender. Your starting point (74) seems low to the level of you just trying to make a point or trying to bring down a player's rating for some odd reason. Can't imagine why. I over exaggerated a little. But my point is still the same. He does two things at an above average level. If he were this great defender, he would be named as such. Or, he would have the assignment of locking down the opposing team's best player on the perimeter. Tonight, I watched Marcus Smart do that. And Avery Bradley will also do that for the Celtics. And it isn't as if Crowder is getting 2 steals a game, he gets 1. And 0.3 blocks. He's 2013-2014 Trevor Ariza with less steals and boards. I don't consider that an 82. |
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Post by Jeremiah Hill on Dec 30, 2016 5:09:02 GMT
www.si.com/nba/2016/09/12/jae-crowder-boston-celticsthesportspost.com/nba-current-50-best-crowder/www.google.com/amp/syndication.bleacherreport.com/amp/2672356-jae-crowder-on-the-verge-of-becoming-boston-celtics-third-star.amp.html?client=ms-android-motorolaAccording to ESPN.com, LeBron James, Kawhi Leonard, Kevin Durant and Paul George were the only small forwards to post a higher real plus-minus than Crowder last season. He finished 26th overall (one spot ahead of Horford). Overall projections by ESPN.com's Jeremias Engelmann and Steve Ilardi have Crowder at 18th overall (one spot ahead of New Orleans' Anthony Davis). Think he's being underrated. He's not going to be Draymond but he's absolutely that type of player, minus the passing. May be a better 3pt shooter and definitely a better ft guy right now. Better scorer basically. Draymond fought this same battle with his ratings. Oh well, keep proving them wrong Jae! ---------------------------------------------------- He's not there yet. Draymond is quite a bit better than Jae Crowder. Look at it this way, they both had similar changes. Both Draymond and Jae have added weapons this season further diminishing their roles. This year Draymond has had 2 over 20pt games vs LAC and HOU Jae has had 1 over 20pt game vs BKN. In total last year Draymond had 17 regular season games over 20 points. 5 in the playoffs. Jae Crowder last year had 11 none over 30. Most of those teams weren't playoff teams. Probably not the best metric but it is an example of his peak I guess is. I'm not trying to say I don't like him. I just think he's a great guy in his role. Korver had elite percentages and that capped him at 75 ovr. This is only 25 or so games. He's improved but he'll likely regress a bit just like Avery will with his rebounding. |
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Post by Alex English on Dec 30, 2016 5:36:22 GMT
Top 10 NBA Wing Defenders: Kawhi Butler George LeBron MKG Klay Tony Allen Avery Bradley Draymond Carroll Bazemore And there's more as well. Somebody I know is waiting to hear his name get called...  |
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Post by Jeremiah Hill on Dec 30, 2016 5:36:31 GMT
Just gonna double up on Charles's point on him being an all NBA player. Smart has been tasked with defending LBJ and lead this team's comeback this game. Not Jae.
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Post by Brian Scalabrine on Dec 30, 2016 13:34:36 GMT
Jae is an all-nba caliber defender. I watch lots of Celtics games and he consistently shuts down the best wing player on the other team while Bradley shuts down the best guard. Those 2 are why the C's have had such a great defense the last 2 years while playing guys like Isiah Thomas, olynk, jerebko and Zeller major minutes He's never made an all-nba defensive team doe... What is "All-NBA Caliber"? What does that mean? Top 10 defensively at his position? Top 10 NBA Wing Defenders: Kawhi Butler George LeBron MKG Klay Tony Allen Avery Bradley Draymond Carroll Bazemore Imo he's better than mkg, baze, current Carroll, LeBron (he doesn't try anymore). I wouldn't say he guards similar players to Bradley or draymond, Bradley guards smaller guys while dray is mostly on bigs. I'm not really sure where to put Tony Allen at this point, haven't watched him in a while. You're right that smart is better than him as well though I'd argue smart guards the lbj because that's his only value at this point since his offense is still pretty bad, so the Celtics try and maximize it. I'd put him right around where klay is defensively so about a top 7 guy on the wing. I was using all-nba as more of a descriptor than literally. If a guy is top 7 or so at his position and is objectively really good on defense I'll just use that as shorthand. You guys are rally underrating Jae though. When he was hurt towards the end of last season the Celtics completely collapsed, I don't remember exactly but they were well under .500 without him. And a big reason why they lost to the hawks round 1, in addition to the Bradley injury, was that Jae was far from 100%. This season also when he was hurt they were struggling, playing about .500 ball until he came back and now they're playing like the 2nd or 3rd best team in the East people thought they'd be. Imo he's tied with Bradley as the 3rd most important player on the team. I can get why when looking at his counting stats he doesn't seem so good but he is so much more valuable on the court and that's reflected in advanced stats, he's 30th in the league in RPM. |
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Kevin Hollis
Former Thunder GM for 7 years
All Star
Posts: 2,838
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Post by Kevin Hollis on Dec 30, 2016 15:36:23 GMT
He's never made an all-nba defensive team doe... What is "All-NBA Caliber"? What does that mean? Top 10 defensively at his position? Top 10 NBA Wing Defenders: Kawhi Butler George LeBron MKG Klay Tony Allen Avery Bradley Draymond Carroll Bazemore Imo he's better than mkg, baze, current Carroll, LeBron (he doesn't try anymore). I wouldn't say he guards similar players to Bradley or draymond, Bradley guards smaller guys while dray is mostly on bigs. I'm not really sure where to put Tony Allen at this point, haven't watched him in a while. You're right that smart is better than him as well though I'd argue smart guards the lbj because that's his only value at this point since his offense is still pretty bad, so the Celtics try and maximize it. I'd put him right around where klay is defensively so about a top 7 guy on the wing. I was using all-nba as more of a descriptor than literally. If a guy is top 7 or so at his position and is objectively really good on defense I'll just use that as shorthand. You guys are rally underrating Jae though. When he was hurt towards the end of last season the Celtics completely collapsed, I don't remember exactly but they were well under .500 without him. And a big reason why they lost to the hawks round 1, in addition to the Bradley injury, was that Jae was far from 100%. This season also when he was hurt they were struggling, playing about .500 ball until he came back and now they're playing like the 2nd or 3rd best team in the East people thought they'd be. Imo he's tied with Bradley as the 3rd most important player on the team. I can get why when looking at his counting stats he doesn't seem so good but he is so much more valuable on the court and that's reflected in advanced stats, he's 30th in the league in RPM. Did you seriously just include LeBron? |
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Post by Charles Barkley on Dec 30, 2016 19:01:10 GMT
Imo he's better than mkg, baze, current Carroll, LeBron (he doesn't try anymore). I wouldn't say he guards similar players to Bradley or draymond, Bradley guards smaller guys while dray is mostly on bigs. I'm not really sure where to put Tony Allen at this point, haven't watched him in a while. You're right that smart is better than him as well though I'd argue smart guards the lbj because that's his only value at this point since his offense is still pretty bad, so the Celtics try and maximize it. I'd put him right around where klay is defensively so about a top 7 guy on the wing. I was using all-nba as more of a descriptor than literally. If a guy is top 7 or so at his position and is objectively really good on defense I'll just use that as shorthand. You guys are rally underrating Jae though. When he was hurt towards the end of last season the Celtics completely collapsed, I don't remember exactly but they were well under .500 without him. And a big reason why they lost to the hawks round 1, in addition to the Bradley injury, was that Jae was far from 100%. This season also when he was hurt they were struggling, playing about .500 ball until he came back and now they're playing like the 2nd or 3rd best team in the East people thought they'd be. Imo he's tied with Bradley as the 3rd most important player on the team. I can get why when looking at his counting stats he doesn't seem so good but he is so much more valuable on the court and that's reflected in advanced stats, he's 30th in the league in RPM. Did you seriously just include LeBron? Me? As one of the best perimeter defenders in the NBA? Yeah, I did. He still is one of the best defenders in the NBA when he wants to be. He just knows he doesn't need to do it 82 games a year, for 48 minutes a night. If there is one player in the league we can base his potential off of, it is LeBron. Because he turns it on when he wants to. When is the last time Rudy Gay turned it on? |
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Kevin Hollis
Former Thunder GM for 7 years
All Star
Posts: 2,838
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Post by Kevin Hollis on Dec 30, 2016 20:42:01 GMT
Me? As one of the best perimeter defenders in the NBA? Yeah, I did. He still is one of the best defenders in the NBA when he wants to be. He just knows he doesn't need to do it 82 games a year, for 48 minutes a night. If there is one player in the league we can base his potential off of, it is LeBron. Because he turns it on when he wants to. When is the last time Rudy Gay turned it on? Not you, Brian is saying Crowder is a better defender than LeBron. Even if you meant in a perimeter d only comparison, you are still crazy. |
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Post by Brian Scalabrine on Dec 30, 2016 20:55:16 GMT
Me? As one of the best perimeter defenders in the NBA? Yeah, I did. He still is one of the best defenders in the NBA when he wants to be. He just knows he doesn't need to do it 82 games a year, for 48 minutes a night. If there is one player in the league we can base his potential off of, it is LeBron. Because he turns it on when he wants to. When is the last time Rudy Gay turned it on? Not you, Brian is saying Crowder is a better defender than LeBron. Even if you meant in a perimeter d only comparison, you are still crazy. I was talking about regular season D. Lbj obviously can turn it on but he hasn't been more than an above average defender the last 2 regular seasons, definitely worse than Crowder has played over that period. |
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Post by Jeremiah Hill on Dec 30, 2016 22:00:41 GMT
LBJ is a great defender on his worst days.
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Kevin Hollis
Former Thunder GM for 7 years
All Star
Posts: 2,838
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Post by Kevin Hollis on Dec 30, 2016 22:05:26 GMT
Not you, Brian is saying Crowder is a better defender than LeBron. Even if you meant in a perimeter d only comparison, you are still crazy. I was talking about regular season D. Lbj obviously can turn it on but he hasn't been more than an above average defender the last 2 regular seasons, definitely worse than Crowder has played over that period. Even if that were true, we all know LeBron is the exception to the exception. He is one player that we all know what he can bring even if he wasn't "trying". So, you can't consider Crowder a better defender knowing this standard. |
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Post by Walt Frazier on Dec 30, 2016 23:52:18 GMT
Bored, I'll play the game this way. Shot chart link we use - nbasavant.com/player.php?player_id=203109 - I have no goal here other than accuracy. If I put in my suggestions and it turns out he "should" be a 76, I'll change my vote to a 76. Current - Category - Suggested 70 - O-Aware - 77 72 - FG - 80 70 - 3PT - 84 (40% gets 90+ but he hasn't done it very long yet.) 76 - FT - 87 80 - Inside - 90 66 - Dunk - 76 20 - Pass - 30 40 - Handle - 35 83 - DAware - 85 78 - Steal - 58 26 - Block - 21 24 - OReb - 24 45 - DReb - 45 75 - Speed - 75 77 - Quick - 87 75 - Jump - 75 65 - Strength - 70 81 - Stamina - 81 Points needed = 55 That's just under 4 ovr needed so I'll go for a 4 PT increase instead of my 5 point I had before. Took these ratings off of the lists Ian posts since I'm mobile right now. Don't have his Injury rating on there but I'm mostly certain he's already at 70. |
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Post by Hanamichi Sakuragi on Jan 3, 2017 5:39:16 GMT
80
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Post by James Kay on Feb 10, 2017 2:10:06 GMT
was this thread closed? Jae is listed as an 80 on the rosters page
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