Kevin Hollis
Former Thunder GM for 7 years
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Posts: 2,838 
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Post by Kevin Hollis on Feb 5, 2016 3:33:47 GMT
Current = 81
Suggested = 83
Kemba is having a great season for the Hornets. Overall, every stat of his is up from last year, including FG% which was his main weak spot. Averaging 20.2 pts, 1.8 steals, 5.0 assists, 4.3 rebounds a game.
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Post by Charles Barkley on Feb 5, 2016 4:01:27 GMT
83.5
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Post by Deleted on Feb 5, 2016 13:45:25 GMT
81
People rating him higher than Tyreke seems crazy to me.
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Post by Brian Scalabrine on Feb 5, 2016 14:03:01 GMT
Can't believe he's actually good now. 82
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Post by Kareem Abdul-Jabbar on Feb 5, 2016 23:50:30 GMT
81 ^^
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Post by Brandon Roy on Feb 6, 2016 7:21:45 GMT
81.. great scorer and clutch shooter but that's it..
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Post by Walt Frazier on Feb 6, 2016 16:37:09 GMT
I dunno, looks pretty great this year.
84
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Post by James Kay on Feb 6, 2016 18:37:56 GMT
I dunno, looks pretty great this year. 84 2 points higher than reggie jackson?! |
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Post by Deleted on Feb 6, 2016 18:48:18 GMT
So, the idea is to compare the ratings of similar players.
Someone please show me how Kemba Walker deserves to be rated higher than Tyreke Evans. Keep in mind the relative athleticism.
Tyreke scores 3 less points but has 3 more assists and 2 more rebounds.
He shoots a better FG% and 3P%.
But Kemba is suddenly an 84, and I got laughed at when I wanted to rerate Tyreke to an 84 last year.
Be consistent. Please.
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Kevin Hollis
Former Thunder GM for 7 years
All Star
Posts: 2,838
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Post by Kevin Hollis on Feb 6, 2016 19:20:43 GMT
Honestly, I think Evans is underrated. I like him a lot obviously, which is why I traded for him.
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Kevin Hollis
Former Thunder GM for 7 years
All Star
Posts: 2,838
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Post by Kevin Hollis on Feb 6, 2016 19:26:50 GMT
Honestly, I think Evans is underrated. I like him a lot obviously, which is why I traded for him. At the timeframe the last Evans post was in, I wasn't a huge fan of the offense, but he fits well into the new system |
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Post by Deleted on Feb 6, 2016 19:28:16 GMT
Honestly, I think Evans is underrated. I like him a lot obviously, which is why I traded for him. At the timeframe the last Evans post was in, I wasn't a huge fan of the offense, but he fits well into the new system Well if you think it's the system you'll prob be sad when Evans leaves. He isn't in the long term plans in NO. Though hopefully Demps + Gentry won't be there either. |
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Post by Walt Frazier on Feb 7, 2016 0:04:56 GMT
I dunno, looks pretty great this year. 84 2 points higher than reggie jackson?! Sure, besides the fact that Kemba has been a solid/good starter for 4 years now, while Reggie is doing it for the first time, and Kemba is currently 2.2% above his career FG% and 4% above his career 3pt%? How about the difference of 0.1 blocks (Reggie) to 0.6 blocks (Kemba)? Or, 0.8 steals (Reggie) to 1.8 steals (Kemba)? I feel pretty confident there is good reasoning for a 2pt difference right now. Maybe should be more, looking at their stats more, but 2-3 feels fine to me. |
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Kevin Hollis
Former Thunder GM for 7 years
All Star
Posts: 2,838
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Post by Kevin Hollis on Feb 7, 2016 5:09:56 GMT
honestly Kemba isn't very good. you guys need to watch some actual NBA games instead of pouring over stats Meh. It's so hard to gauge anything in D5 sometimes. Everyone can come up with an argument for or against someone no matter what. I am sure you have quoted stats before in a post, so the argument that we shouldn't gush over stats is weird. Everyone has their own opinion and ways to rate people. Stats, to me, are productivity at it's core. However, this is just how I view ratings. |
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Post by James Kay on Feb 7, 2016 18:21:03 GMT
2 points higher than reggie jackson?! Sure, besides the fact that Kemba has been a solid/good starter for 4 years now, while Reggie is doing it for the first time, and Kemba is currently 2.2% above his career FG% and 4% above his career 3pt%? How about the difference of 0.1 blocks (Reggie) to 0.6 blocks (Kemba)? Or, 0.8 steals (Reggie) to 1.8 steals (Kemba)? I feel pretty confident there is good reasoning for a 2pt difference right now. Maybe should be more, looking at their stats more, but 2-3 feels fine to me. Why does it matter if Kemba is shooting 2.2% above his career FG%? He's been a sub 40% shooter for the past few years, Reggie is shooting better than him THIS season, FG% and 3P%. Kemba also plays 36 minutes to Reggie's 31, and Reggie still averages more assists. Reggie has a better PER, WS/48, Offensive Rating. Kemba has his advantages too, but I would rather have Reggie and definitely don't see Kemba as 2 points better than Reggie. |
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Post by Walt Frazier on Feb 7, 2016 22:24:14 GMT
Sure, besides the fact that Kemba has been a solid/good starter for 4 years now, while Reggie is doing it for the first time, and Kemba is currently 2.2% above his career FG% and 4% above his career 3pt%? How about the difference of 0.1 blocks (Reggie) to 0.6 blocks (Kemba)? Or, 0.8 steals (Reggie) to 1.8 steals (Kemba)? I feel pretty confident there is good reasoning for a 2pt difference right now. Maybe should be more, looking at their stats more, but 2-3 feels fine to me. Why does it matter if Kemba is shooting 2.2% above his career FG%? He's been a sub 40% shooter for the past few years, Reggie is shooting better than him THIS season, FG% and 3P%. Kemba also plays 36 minutes to Reggie's 31, and Reggie still averages more assists. Reggie has a better PER, WS/48, Offensive Rating. Kemba has his advantages too, but I would rather have Reggie and definitely don't see Kemba as 2 points better than Reggie. Because he has improved. Those are significant improvements. Care argue that fact? He has been in 81 for a year or two now. He is currently more proven than he was when he got that rating, &, he has made those improvements. For me, Reggie just needs to do it for longer. Maybe Reggies slight percent and assist advantages would balance out Walker's steel and block advantages, but I don't think it would quite balance out yet. There are just a lot more points that make up a full steal per game and half of a block per game compared to 1 or 2% points on field goal and three-point percentages. So again, in my opinion, Kemba game right now would be worth slightly more than Reggies. Maybe I could only confidently say one point. However, kemba is more proven and Reggie needs to prove it for longer. Hence the two-point advantage I currently gave, and the reason why I said it could be up to three point difference in Kemba favor right now until Reggie proves himself further. |
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Post by Walt Frazier on Feb 7, 2016 22:32:13 GMT
Kemba looks to have a significant defensive advantage as well according to the advanced stats. Now I feel even more confident with my two point Kemba advantage, and you have made me think about going even further or lowering my Reggie vote.
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Post by James Kay on Feb 7, 2016 23:16:25 GMT
Why does it matter if Kemba is shooting 2.2% above his career FG%? He's been a sub 40% shooter for the past few years, Reggie is shooting better than him THIS season, FG% and 3P%. Kemba also plays 36 minutes to Reggie's 31, and Reggie still averages more assists. Reggie has a better PER, WS/48, Offensive Rating. Kemba has his advantages too, but I would rather have Reggie and definitely don't see Kemba as 2 points better than Reggie. Because he has improved. Those are significant improvements. Care argue that fact? No? I don't see its relevance. Kemba appears to be a better defender, while Reggie is the better playmaker and more efficient scorer. I don't think those are really disputable. If that's reflected in the rankings, then it is what it is. |
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Post by Deleted on Feb 7, 2016 23:39:03 GMT
Yeah Kemba has improved Walt, but that isn't an argument for a rating increase. It's entirely possible (and in my opinion) that he was over rated to begin with.
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Post by Walt Frazier on Feb 8, 2016 1:59:30 GMT
Yeah Kemba has improved Walt, but that isn't an argument for a rating increase. It's entirely possible (and in my opinion) that he was over rated to begin with. I agree on the possibility, but personally disagree on the validity of that statement applying to Kemba. Agree to disagree gents, no big deal. I am just another vote. I think Kemba's track record helps vs Reggie doing this for a full season for the first time as we speak. I also strongly believe the Steal/block advantages are worth much more in the rating distribution than Reggie's comparatively small advantages in other areas. If it makes you guys feel better, if Reggie does this again next year, my personal vote probably is an 83, possibly 84 depending on his defense. |
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Post by Walt Frazier on Feb 8, 2016 13:55:17 GMT
If you guys are using defense as a reason to increase Kemba, you've truly lost your minds. Technically, the argument I just used was that he is significantly better on defense than Reggie Jackson. That may be setting a low bar, but since we have been dragged into this comparison of players, it is a fair point. I'm a stats guy. And defense is hard to quantitate on the best of days. The eye test will give two different people two different results almost every time. So, using the stats available, Kemba looks a lot better on defense than Reggie. No one actually said that he is a world beater on defense. Just clearing up the misconception you seem to have just spread through an ignorant post. |
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Post by Walt Frazier on Feb 8, 2016 17:18:49 GMT
You're using defense as a justification for Kemba's rating relative to Reggie Jackson... yet you say that I am the one spreading misconceptions. YOU are the one posting ignorant ideas, Walt. I honestly can't believe this is even an argument. Kemba might be the worst on-ball defender among starting PGs in the league. Jackson might not be good, but neither is Kemba. There is no relative difference between them that can justify Kemba being higher than Jackson based on defense. I'll post the stats for you later, gotta run right now, but there are statistics that say Kemba is significantly better than Reggie. When comparing the two, this is relevant information. |
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Post by Walt Frazier on Feb 8, 2016 19:19:15 GMT
Reggie Jackson: eFG% = .490 / PER - 20.8 / TS% - .536 / AST% - 36.2 / STL% - 1.3 / BLK% - 0.2 / TOV% - 12.8 / OWS - 4.1 / DWS - 1.4 / WS - 5.4 / WS/48 - .161 / OBPM - 4.6 / DBPM - (-1.4) / BPM - 3.2 / VORP - 2.1
Kemba Walker: eFG% - .479 / PER - 20.4 / TS% - .539 / AST% - 25.6 / STL% - 2.5 / BLK% - 1.3 / TOV% - 10.5 / OWS - 3.2 / DWS - 2.2 / WS - 5.4 / WS/48 - .146 / OBPM - 3.2 / DBPM - 0.4 / BPM - 3.5 / VORP - 2.5
All that is to say, a lot of things, obviously! Every single Defensive stat shows Kemba with a significant advantage over Reggie, which was my point. I'm not saying he's great. I'm saying when one guy is a (generic 1-100 scale) 20 and the other is a 57, that's significant. Neither is great, but one is much better, comparatively.
Also, the efg% and ts% both show what I was getting after, that on rating points, not much difference is going to happen for their %'s, if any at all.
Reggie's AST% is impressive, definitely a better passer than Kemba. Great. Kemba still has the large Steal and Block advantages, plus these defensive advantages, PLUS, some combo of O-Aware / Dribble should be higher considering their TOV%.
PER says they have a similar effect, VORP has Kemba ahead, WS/48 has Reggie ahead. BPM has Kemba ahead.
Overall, yea. I think on total impact, they're close. I think Kemba's done it longer. And not just "longer" but, more to the point, Reggie hasn't done it for very long yet. IT's not like my point would stand if they're in their 4th and 8th years, respectively, of performing just like they are now. This is Reggie's 1st real season doing this, while it's Kemba's 3rd or 4th with improvement in his game too.
So, by next year, if they ahve the exact stats as now, I'd put Reggie only 1 point behind, most likely. I think in our rating system (like it or not), the things Kemba does will add up a little more than the things Reggie does better (which is really only passing).
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Post by Hanamichi Sakuragi on Feb 14, 2016 0:15:27 GMT
85
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Post by Deleted on Feb 14, 2016 14:53:30 GMT
Do you think Kemba walker is better than 15 starting point guards in the NBA? You guys do realize if the definition of an average starter at PG (Kemba) gets an 85, literally half the point guards in the league will be rated 85+ Come on this is getting fucking ridiculous. |
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Post by Deleted on Feb 15, 2016 0:39:15 GMT
Among PG's Kemba's TS% is 24th in the league.
His Assist ratio is 62nd among PGs.
His rebound rate is 21st.
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Post by Charles Barkley on Feb 15, 2016 1:47:24 GMT
Do you think Kemba walker is better than 15 starting point guards in the NBA? You guys do realize if the definition of an average starter at PG (Kemba) gets an 85, literally half the point guards in the league will be rated 85+ Come on this is getting fucking ridiculous. I think all the PGs are highly overrated in the NBA because of the style of the game now. And, because, well, the vast majority of them are open doors on defense. I think he is better than 15 starting PGs in the NBA. Lets go thru the list, shall we... Teague: right now, I'll have Kemba IT2: Close, but IT2 has a slight edge. Whoever the Nets run out there each night: better Deron Williams: Think Kemba is better. Will the Thrill Barton: Kemba. Or whoever the Nuggets consider their starting PG these days. Reggie Jackson: Think I'll take Kemba Patrick Beverly/Ty Lawson: Kemba George Hill: Kemba Whoever the Lakers run out there: Kemba MCW: Kemba Rubio: Kemba Jrue Holiday: Kemba Whoever the Knicks run at the point: Kemba Better than Philly's PG Brandon Knight: Close, but I'll take Kemba, think Kemba would tear shit up in that offense Tony Parker: right now I'll take Kemba Take Kemba over the Jazz's PG That's 16, maybe 17. And I left a couple off the list a lot of people would have Kemba ahead of. So really, 18-19. You should really consider what you say when you say things like that, a quarter of the teams have no PG really. That being said, I am changing my vote to an 83.5 |
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Post by Deleted on Feb 15, 2016 1:49:50 GMT
Do you think Kemba walker is better than 15 starting point guards in the NBA? You guys do realize if the definition of an average starter at PG (Kemba) gets an 85, literally half the point guards in the league will be rated 85+ Come on this is getting fucking ridiculous. I think all the PGs are highly overrated in the NBA because of the style of the game now. And, because, well, the vast majority of them are open doors on defense. I think he is better than 15 starting PGs in the NBA. Lets go thru the list, shall we... Teague: right now, I'll have Kemba IT2: Close, but IT2 has a slight edge. Whoever the Nets run out there each night: better Deron Williams: Think Kemba is better. Will the Thrill Barton: Kemba. Or whoever the Nuggets consider their starting PG these days. Reggie Jackson: Think I'll take Kemba Patrick Beverly/Ty Lawson: Kemba George Hill: Kemba Whoever the Lakers run out there: Kemba MCW: Kemba Rubio: Kemba Jrue Holiday: Kemba Whoever the Knicks run at the point: Kemba Better than Philly's PG Brandon Knight: Close, but I'll take Kemba, think Kemba would tear shit up in that offense Tony Parker: right now I'll take Kemba Take Kemba over the Jazz's PG That's 16, maybe 17. And I left a couple off the list a lot of people would have Kemba ahead of. So really, 18-19. You should really consider what you say when you say things like that, a quarter of the teams have no PG really. That being said, I am changing my vote to an 83.5Consider what I say? You just agreed with me that he is a league average PG, with a personal opinion error of like +-2 Does anyone else think the 14th best PG in the NBA needs to be an 85? If you're average you shouldn't be breaking 80. |
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Post by Charles Barkley on Feb 15, 2016 2:19:19 GMT
I think all the PGs are highly overrated in the NBA because of the style of the game now. And, because, well, the vast majority of them are open doors on defense. I think he is better than 15 starting PGs in the NBA. That's 16, maybe 17. And I left a couple off the list a lot of people would have Kemba ahead of. So really, 18-19. You should really consider what you say when you say things like that, a quarter of the teams have no PG really. That being said, I am changing my vote to an 83.5Consider what I say? You just agreed with me that he is a league average PG, with a personal opinion error of like +-2 Does anyone else think the 14th best PG in the NBA needs to be an 85? If you're average you shouldn't be breaking 80. He's not average. There's 32 teams in the NBA, the middle of that would be 16. He's somewhere between 14-10, depending on your opinion of him. And that's not to say that the gap between 9 and him is huge either, or that the gap between 16 and 10 is huge. If you're average, you shouldn't be breaking 80, that's correct. But he isn't average. And if we are going to say he is, then he is an average STARTING PG. The majority of NBA players aren't starters, they ride the bench. I don't see how you can say he is average, there's 3 guys I left off that list who a lot of people would say he is better than, Rose, Elfrid, and Rondo. So that 14 goes to 11. And again, we can't compare players just because they play the same position. Basketball positions were invented so that the average person can understand basketball. We aren't average basketball fans, we are people pretending to be GMs of NBA teams on the internet in a forum where the games are simulated in a video game that is 10 years old. We are way more than an average fan. He's a scoring PG with the ability to pass and rebound on an average level. He plays good defense. Nearly 2 steals a game and a half of a block is way better than the average guard. He's an 81 right now, and his stats this season are better than his career averages, meaning he has gotten better this season. And, at the end of the day, that's what we are deciding on in here. Has the player gotten better or worse? This season, he is having a career year in nearly every non-advanced stat all while taking on a greater load in the offense. He has no SG, MKG has been hurt the whole year, Al Jefferson has declined greatly and been hurt. The only player on his team who is performing at their statistical norm is Batum, and even then one could argue that he has declined this season from what he was 2 years ago in Portland. Mostly what I said is fact. I'm not spouting off my opinion over here, besides that list. And even then, all of that is facts as well. The gap between players OVR ratings is what really defines how good a player is compared to other players of that ilk. So say Kemba gets an 85, what does that mean in terms of where he is compared to others? Knight and Jackson are going up to 82 or 83. IT2 just got a bump to an 82 or 83, and people wnat him at an 85. I think those 3 guards compare best to Kemba, and I think Kemba is the best of that batch. |
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Post by Charles Barkley on Feb 18, 2016 21:29:08 GMT
kemba is not better than Teague, Deron, Jackson, jrue, knight I think he is better this season than those guys. I also left off Elf, Rose, and another I can't recall that I felt he wasn't better than, that most would think he is. You really don't think he's better than Deron fucking Williams and Jrue Holiday? I can see the argument for the other 3 but not those 2. |
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